Sitting in Coffee shops

HugalHugal Shipmate
That may not sound an interesting title but wait.
I work in catering in a department store. In out coffee shop we have people who buy one coffee and sit all day at their computer. Some get a glass of water and sit for 2 Hours (we will never refuse a customer a glass of water). Meanwhile customers coming in are waiting for seats. In the current climate businesses need all the sales they can get and restrictions mean that there is less seating so we can take fewer customers anyway. Of course this happens in all coffee shops.
Thanks for buying the coffee but get your backside out of that seat.
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Comments

  • Just bring in a new rule that sets a maximum time for which someone can occupy a table per drink purchased.
  • Hugal--

    Sorry you're dealing with that. Here, many people hang out in Starbuck's, etc., that way, and have since long before Covid. Does your coffee shop offer free wi-fi to customers? If so, that might be one reason the customers hang around.
  • You will have people like me, dealing with the fact that they have been sitting at home alone for weeks. Some of them will find something like that an essential transition before being actively out and about. I can see that it creates difficulties, but the fact that the commercial hospitality sector is, for the most part, allowed to operate when we can't get together with people in each other's homes makes this sort of thing inevitable, I'm afraid.
  • Some coffee shops have an upstairs where you can bring your laptop and study as long as you like. The downstairs is for those coming and going. A good compromise, I think.

    Ohhh to sit in a coffee shop with good friends. Ours have been closed for months and months 😢
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Hugal wrote: »
    Of course this happens in all coffee shops.

    Exactly. This is not news. They were doing it in Vienna well over 100 years ago.

    But here you are with your new-fangled ideas about how people ought to do nothing more in a coffee house than drink a coffee.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    It’s just it has much more of an impact when coffee shops are forced to restrict their numbers so much more.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Just bring in a new rule that sets a maximum time for which someone can occupy a table per drink purchased.

    Or set up a model like Ziferblat, where you aren't charged for what you consume, but for the length of time you spend there.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I see it as a problem only if potential paying customers are shooed away for lack of a table to sit at. If that is the case, I think something like, "Excuse me, sir, but could I bring you another coffee?" would be in order. If the answer is "No," then "I wonder, then, if you would kindly let someone else have your table" would be appropriate.

    Once I was waiting for a bus on a very hot day. As I was feeling peaked, I sat down at an outdoor table at a coffee shop near the bus stop. There were no other customers in sight. Someone came out and asked me to leave. "But there are no other customers here" I protested. To no avail. I was tempted to add, "Oh, I didn't realize there was such a swarm of customers waiting for this table. I can't seem to shoo them away no matter how vigorously I wave my arms" but I just got up and left.

    Needless to say, I never patronized that coffee shop in the future.
  • I suppose I am surprised that places offer unlimited wifi like that. Rather than, say, charging after 2 hours.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Recently when I've been meeting a friend up from London in cafes (the only way we can meet) I have booked ahead (as per their websites) for a designated time and, in some instances, slot - eg 30 minutes coffee, 60 if brunch. In one instance, we came in off the street, they had a table free but advised us it was for 45 minutes max - which was fine. It also meant that they could give anyone else rolling up an idea of when a table would be free.

    Seems to work - our local ones are staying open and staying busy.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
    If that's the company policy, couldn't you perhaps accept it, on the basis that 'If this was my café wouldn't do it that way, but they pay my wages and so they get to decide. What they say goes.'?

  • Put Wham's Last Christmas on a loop. Pretty certain you'll have enough empty tables after 10 mins.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
    If that's the company policy, couldn't you perhaps accept it, on the basis that 'If this was my café wouldn't do it that way, but they pay my wages and so they get to decide. What they say goes.'?

    I'm detecting a recurring sense in Hugal's threads that Hugal has a firm belief in Hugal's ability to run the world far better than anyone that Hugal has ever worked for.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    I'm detecting a recurring sense in Hugal's threads that Hugal has a firm belief in Hugal's ability to run the world far better than anyone that Hugal has ever worked for.

    I recognise myself in this post. I don't think I'm alone, either.
  • Once I was waiting for a bus on a very hot day. As I was feeling peaked, I sat down at an outdoor table at a coffee shop near the bus stop. There were no other customers in sight. Someone came out and asked me to leave. "But there are no other customers here" I protested. To no avail. I was tempted to add, "Oh, I didn't realize there was such a swarm of customers waiting for this table. I can't seem to shoo them away no matter how vigorously I wave my arms" but I just got up and left.

    Needless to say, I never patronized that coffee shop in the future.
    We were once in an East Anglian town on, I think, Boxing Day. We wanted coffee. The only place open was a Spaghetti House. It was almost empty. But they wouldn't serve us coffee: "full meals only".

  • Firenze wrote: »
    Recently when I've been meeting a friend up from London in cafes (the only way we can meet) I have booked ahead (as per their websites) for a designated time and, in some instances, slot - eg 30 minutes coffee, 60 if brunch. In one instance, we came in off the street, they had a table free but advised us it was for 45 minutes max - which was fine. It also meant that they could give anyone else rolling up an idea of when a table would be free.

    Seems to work - our local ones are staying open and staying busy.
    Seems sensible. Or simply provide really uncomfortable chairs.

  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    It's the influence of Starbucks, who have a deliberate policy of letting you stay indefinitely. It would never fly in a traditional French cafe. After a certain length of time, you will be asked to buy another drink or leave.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    I'm detecting a recurring sense in Hugal's threads that Hugal has a firm belief in Hugal's ability to run the world far better than anyone that Hugal has ever worked for.

    I recognise myself in this post. I don't think I'm alone, either.

    Likewise. Though in fairness I recognise that there are management tasks I wouldn't be good at. It's just that my response to that is to not seek management roles, and I rather wish those who currently occupy them had the same level of self-awareness.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
    If that's the company policy, couldn't you perhaps accept it, on the basis that 'If this was my café wouldn't do it that way, but they pay my wages and so they get to decide. What they say goes.'?

    I'm detecting a recurring sense in Hugal's threads that Hugal has a firm belief in Hugal's ability to run the world far better than anyone that Hugal has ever worked for.

    Then you are not correct. I have been with the company I work for for twenty years so I do have trust in it.
    Next I said it was not just where I work.
    The situation. Is more complicated than you would think.
    There is no company policy in this. I wish there was.
    Hell is for rants. I ranted.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    I'm surprised anyone wants to hang around in a cafe of any sort at the moment.

    One of the joys of pre-pandemic life for me was not only meeting friends in coffee shops but taking my journal and books and sitting in one for the morning (no wifi required or even desired). I'd choose one of our local establishments, though - definitely not a department store cafe. During the course of the morning I'd buy a couple of coffees and if I wasn't going to stay for lunch I'd make sure I left once the lunchtime queues started.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
    If that's the company policy, couldn't you perhaps accept it, on the basis that 'If this was my café wouldn't do it that way, but they pay my wages and so they get to decide. What they say goes.'?

    I'm detecting a recurring sense in Hugal's threads that Hugal has a firm belief in Hugal's ability to run the world far better than anyone that Hugal has ever worked for.

    In fairness, Hugal hasn't criticised management, it's people like me who've been saying 'Why doesn't management just do xyz?' as though xyz would be a dead easy thing to implement.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place.

    And it's a department store? You work in John Lewis, and I claim my £5 :smile:

    (Hey, if I'm right, _you_ own the place. Not that it's going to do you much good this year. My (genuine) commiserations about that, but at least you're not in Debenhams. Though thinking that through, maybe you could all borrow a shit load of money on the basis of that ownership, pay yourself a massive dividend, and then sell the company on to some other poor shmuck who would also somehow be responsible for that loan you took out. In fact, I'm off to remortgage my house, and then sell it to someone who will buy it on the basis that it (the house) owes someone a load of money, while I retire to the Canaries! How cool will that be!)

  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    When I go to a coffee shop, I see it that I am paying not just for the coffee but also the seating, the atmosphere, the chance to be around people. Because I could of course make myself a coffee at home for a fraction of the price. If I buy a coffee, I generally stay for at least an hour. After one hour, I may buy another coffee though, especially if it is quite busy. If it is so busy that there aren't enough seats for everyone coming in, then I don't stay so long, but I still stay long enough to enjoy my coffee without rushing, and do a bit of sketching. But I generally choose times that aren't so busy. Many people at the moment are completely isolated and so sitting in a coffee shop might be how they get to be around people, even if sitting alone. It makes a big difference to be sitting somewhere where there are people around, rather than always sitting alone in your living room.
  • What would be interesting to know is how many coffees per hour need to be sold for the business to trade profitably. Obviously there are busy times and quiet times during the day, but Hugal makes the valid point that social distancing may well mean that cafes etc (in the UK) are only operating to 30/40% of their normal capacity so need to maximise turnover at busy times.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Not a coffee shop, but I once visited a bar where I was still sipping on a beer after 1/2 hour (Miss Amanda goes not guzzle). I was told that they expected patrons to buy a beer at least every 15 minutes and was asked politely to leave. (They went out of business shortly after that.)
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Of course this happens in all coffee shops.

    Exactly. This is not news. They were doing it in Vienna well over 100 years ago.

    A friend of mine lived in Vienna for a year in the early 1990s and would occasionally sit for an afternoon in a coffee shop. But “occasionally” was the operative word because they would charge something like $4 for a cup of coffee (about $8 in 2020 dollars).

    I admit to finding Starbucks frustrating sometimes because there are times when I really need a sandwich or a snack and a coffee and a place to sit down for about 20 minutes, and there is not a table to be found because it looks like people have been sitting with their laptops nursing a single coffee for hours. Their business, and their business model, but I still find it frustrating...
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I don't patronize Starbucks, but if I did I would not be beyond saying, "Excuse me, would you mind if I joined you with my coffee and sandwich, please?"
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    I hope, Miss Amanda, that you would say that as LOUDLY AS POSSIBLE...
    :naughty:

    I might, in that situation, add something like 'I'm not feeling too well, and if I don't sit down, I'm going to be SICK...'
    :naughty: :naughty:
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I go to coffee shops that have nice sofa and armchair window seats, around one table, and sometimes, if there is just one person there around that table, I ask if I can sit there too, on a different sofa/armchair, even though there are other less comfy seats available elsewhere. Not in pandemic times, as this isn't permitted, to sit at the same table opposite someone you don't know, but at other times. People are generally absolutely fine with it, and sometimes people ask to join me if I'm the only person in the comfy area, and I am fine with it too. I like the comfy seats and to sit by the window, because I like to look out the window and sketch the people walking by. I find these coffee shops have regulars who often sit in the same place doing their thing. There is one older man who sits for hours doing cross stitch animals. It is nice to see him and see how far along he has got.
  • That sounds very much like the little café in our local community centre - alas and alack, the café was a victim of Lockdown the First, and is unlikely ever to re-open...I do miss it, not just for the excellent food, but also for the variegated (to say the least!) company and conversation.
    :cry:
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    It's the case in chain coffee shops too, at least where I am - including Starbucks. Another thing I notice, from being a frequent coffee shop customer who sometimes sits there for hours, is that coffee shops often have quite a few regulars who would be considered a bit odd/eccentric - which I say not in a derogatory way, as I am very sure I fall into this category, though probably not to the extent of some. Some don't have social awareness, they may have mild learning disabilities, developmental disabilities or various mental illnesses, they are often unemployed, possibly sometimes homeless, and this is where they go during the day, and they can only afford one coffee. I've sat with some of them - as I am quite happy to ask to join people, and they are quite happy for me to join them - and I chat to them, sometimes I draw them, as people can quite like being drawn.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    That sort of person is (or was) frequently to be found in the café to which I refer, as the Community Centre had a number of groups catering for people with all sorts of issues.

    As you say, chatting to them can be quite a revealing, and rewarding, experience, for them as well, one hopes.

    It was well-known that I am a lay minister at the nearby Parish Church, so the conversation sometimes took interesting theological turns!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place.

    And it's a department store? You work in John Lewis, and I claim my £5 :smile:

    (Hey, if I'm right, _you_ own the place. Not that it's going to do you much good this year. My (genuine) commiserations about that, but at least you're not in Debenhams. Though thinking that through, maybe you could all borrow a shit load of money on the basis of that ownership, pay yourself a massive dividend, and then sell the company on to some other poor shmuck who would also somehow be responsible for that loan you took out. In fact, I'm off to remortgage my house, and then sell it to someone who will buy it on the basis that it (the house) owes someone a load of money, while I retire to the Canaries! How cool will that be!)

    You may say that I couldn’t possibly comment.
  • I wouldn't mind if they charged me occupancy by the hour (after the first half or so). To me, the point of going to a coffee shop is to be somewhere with people other than my living room (which isn't very peopled, anyway). Alternately, to meet clients for my freelance work in a safe and comfortable environment (yeah, this is all pre-pandemic). I would pay a reasonable amount for the use of a table and chair, recognizing that they need to keep the place going. Heck, they could have little parking meters or something.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Near where I live there is a community centre, run by volunteers, where people can get a very low-price coffee or tea, and a breakfast too - Tesco donates its out of date stock. And this is a place for people with all sorts of issues, people with learning/developmental disabilities, and lots of elderly, lonely people. But what I was referring to in previous posts was regular coffee shops - Starbucks, Costa, Caffè Nero. I think unless you frequent these places often, and at different times, you don't get a sense of the norms. They are not simply places for privileged people to pop in to get lunch - they are a haven for all sorts of people, and people use them for very different reasons, and staff tend to be sensitive to that and get to know their regulars and are kind to them.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    edited December 2020
    fineline wrote: »
    Coffee shops often have quite a few regulars who would be considered a bit odd/eccentric , , , Some don't have social awareness, they may have mild learning disabilities, developmental disabilities or various mental illnesses, they are often unemployed, possibly sometimes homeless, and this is where they go during the day

    Sort of like church, eh? :confused:
  • Very much so!
    :wink:
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    fineline wrote: »
    Coffee shops often have quite a few regulars who would be considered a bit odd/eccentric , , , Some don't have social awareness, they may have mild learning disabilities, developmental disabilities or various mental illnesses, they are often unemployed, possibly sometimes homeless, and this is where they go during the day

    Sort of like church, eh? :confused:

    In some ways, yes, though in a church, it's more likely that there would be more general awareness of these people among the other people who use the church. And in a church, often more priority is given to the people of a higher social standing, while the oddballs, while tolerated, are more pushed aside and treated as second class citizens. So a coffee shop may be a more of a welcoming place for the oddballs than a church is.

  • Sadly, that may oft-times be true.
  • fineline wrote: »
    But what I was referring to in previous posts was regular coffee shops - Starbucks, Costa, Caffè Nero. I think unless you frequent these places often, and at different times, you don't get a sense of the norms. They are not simply places for privileged people to pop in to get lunch - they are a haven for all sorts of people, and people use them for very different reasons, and staff tend to be sensitive to that and get to know their regulars and are kind to them.

    I am extremely familiar with what Starbucks has to offer, all over urban and suburban Ontario and at various times of day, and frankly this description strikes me as absolutely surreal. Perhaps Starbucks is a different experience in your part of the world. I go to Starbucks because I like their food, coffee, and decor better than some places (in Canada, start with Tim Hortons) where you might encounter a wider cross-section of society. At least I do not delude myself into thinking I'm a virtuous person for doing so.

    As as an aside, I think Starbucks' marketing as a community space is often quite at variance with the reality - most of their locations offer relatively little seating space, compared to their competitors, and I suspect that most of their profitability comes from their takeout (and now increasingly drive-through) business. They are very successful at creating an image based basically on having nice decor and few arm chairs in a corner somewhere that you're extremely unlikely to actually be able to occupy unless you arrive at exactly the right time. Again, I'm a faithful customer, and I'm not complaining, but let's not get carried away.
  • A big shout out to all retail workers, who were mostly out of work for about three months in my city. Those poor buggers copped the brunt of the restrictions. Thank God we had proper support systems in place so that only a few got shafted. My pub landlady commented last month that with the Jobkeeper scheme, having her venue closed was "ok", but organising to open up with the new covid restrictions was exhausting. Mind you, that was exactly what she was doing when we spoke.

    I *think* we have had a pretty good post-lockdown bounce in the retail sector. Our support schemes have meant that people have money to spend, and this is the spending time of the year for us, it being warm and Christmas. I am hopeful that economies around the world will respond as well as ours as the crisis moves into its next phase. That is a prayer, by the way.

    Hugal, do you have people who stick around for ages but guiltily buy extra coffee or cake at regular intervals?
  • Miss Amanda--
    I see it as a problem only if potential paying customers are shooed away for lack of a table to sit at. If that is the case, I think something like, "Excuse me, sir, but could I bring you another coffee?" would be in order. If the answer is "No," then "I wonder, then, if you would kindly let someone else have your table" would be appropriate.

    That might work in a place where there weren't any free coffee refills. I presume Starbuck's doesn't give them, unless maybe for basic, regular coffee. But some cafes do.

    OTOH, a polite "May I get you anything else?" might be enough of a nudge to briefly break their concentration, realize how long they've been there, and figure out whether they can afford a pastry or another drink, or whether it's time to go.

    FWIW.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    @Marsupial, what was surreal about my description of coffee shops? Do you not get such a variety of customers in Ontario? Personally, my reasons for going to Starbucks have been because they made my preferred drink exactly how I like it, the staff were friendly and knew me as a regular, and remembered exactly how I like my drink, and there were comfy seats and lots of space. Going to Starbucks has nothing to do with being a virtuous person, and I've not seen any marketing about being a community speace. My point was the staff (here, at least) get a sense of their clientele, get to know the regulars, and it's not just about catering for those who spend a lot and don't stay very long, though of course they are a significant part of it.

    Though, now I think of it, when I went to coffee shops in Canada (around 25 years ago, so might be different now), there were quite different, more impersonal, not so much of the relaxed, cosy, stay-a-while sense that you can get here. However, in Canada, coffee shops opened much later, and you'd get groups of people going late in the evening for an hour or two, kind of like how people go to pubs here. The way I use coffee shops in the UK is very different from how I used them in Canada.

    And, FWIW, the various Starbucks I have been to here in the UK have tended to have more space and sofa areas than their competitors. It's not part of any marketing I've seen - that is simply my lived experience of going to coffee shops. They often have an upstairs space full of soft seating. So the fact that this isn't your experience in Ontario doesn't mean I'm getting 'carried away' when I describe my experience in various locations in the London/Surrey area and the South West of England. I'm not someone with a tendency to get carried away. :lol:
  • Marsupial wrote: »
    As as an aside, I think Starbucks' marketing as a community space is often quite at variance with the reality - most of their locations offer relatively little seating space, compared to their competitors, and I suspect that most of their profitability comes from their takeout (and now increasingly drive-through) business.

    I think their use (as opposed to marketing) as a community space is often demand rather than necessarily supply driven, simply because the alternatives no longer exist or have also been commercialised.

    OTOH despite London's reputation for high commercial rents, there are quite a number of Starbucks in the centre which seem either absurdly large, or are have a first floor where students camp for much of the day.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    BroJames wrote: »
    It’s just it has much more of an impact when coffee shops are forced to restrict their numbers so much more.

    It's a choice for the coffee shop, isn't it? Their ideal world is to be run off their feet with customers that nip in, down an expensive coffee, and run away, preferably with an overpriced gift tin of fudge or a mug with a reindeer on it or something.

    Actual people don't work like that. So your cafe setting its policy for laptop campers has to find a balance between keeping those people there (they tend to spend consistently, if not at a high rate per table-hour they occupy) and evicting them to make space for more valuable customers at peak hours.

    (Although if I want to sit somewhere with a laptop, I'll go to the library, which is quieter, and doesn't have anyone trying to sell me pastries my waistline really doesn't need.)

    (I think there's also a sense that a department store cafe doesn't feel so much like a real cafe, where people might feel guiltier taking up space, but more like a place for customers to have a sit down and refresh themselves for another couple of hours looking at crystal bowls and curtain fabric, so perhaps people feel less guilty taking advantage.)
  • SpikeSpike Admin Emeritus
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place.
    I know who you work for and I worked for the same company many years ago. I see nothing has changed since 1983
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The company I work for has a good customer reputation we want to keep, and customers who like to make fuss. Who in fact think they own the place. The WiFi is free in the whole store. If things get massively busy we would ask them to leave but it is good customer relations and they are likely to make a future purchase here, at least that is how the store managers see it. It is frustrating though.
    If that's the company policy, couldn't you perhaps accept it, on the basis that 'If this was my café wouldn't do it that way, but they pay my wages and so they get to decide. What they say goes.'?

    I don't know where Hugal is from, but in the U.S. wait staff get a significant part of their wages from tips. The management does not pay them a living wage. So, at least here, it is not just of managerial import.
  • fineline wrote: »
    @Marsupial, what was surreal about my description of coffee shops? Do you not get such a variety of customers in Ontario?

    I'm not going to try to do a class analysis of who goes to Starbucks, though it does strike me as on average a more middle-class kind of place than the ubiqitous Tim Hortons (where incidentally I've never had trouble finding a seat). I do find the idea that someone with $10 to spend on lunch and 20 minutes to eat it in is somehow a priviliged person who doesn't understand coffee shop culture more than a little surreal.

  • And apparently I can't spell today.
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