@Marsupial, what was surreal about my description of coffee shops? Do you not get such a variety of customers in Ontario? Personally, my reasons for going to Starbucks have been because they made my preferred drink exactly how I like it, the staff were friendly and knew me as a regular, and remembered exactly how I like my drink, and there were comfy seats and lots of space. Going to Starbucks has nothing to do with being a virtuous person, and I've not seen any marketing about being a community speace. My point was the staff (here, at least) get a sense of their clientele, get to know the regulars, and it's not just about catering for those who spend a lot and don't stay very long, though of course they are a significant part of it.
Though, now I think of it, when I went to coffee shops in Canada (around 25 years ago, so might be different now), there were quite different, more impersonal, not so much of the relaxed, cosy, stay-a-while sense that you can get here. However, in Canada, coffee shops opened much later, and you'd get groups of people going late in the evening for an hour or two, kind of like how people go to pubs here. The way I use coffee shops in the UK is very different from how I used them in Canada.
And, FWIW, the various Starbucks I have been to here in the UK have tended to have more space and sofa areas than their competitors. It's not part of any marketing I've seen - that is simply my lived experience of going to coffee shops. They often have an upstairs space full of soft seating. So the fact that this isn't your experience in Ontario doesn't mean I'm getting 'carried away' when I describe my experience in various locations in the London/Surrey area and the South West of England. I'm not someone with a tendency to get carried away.
Starbucks was a complete commercial disaster here. I can't remember how many shops they opened, but we now know only 3 - 1 each at the international terminal at the airport, in the central city and at a nearby shopping centre main street. The market here had already been taken by mum-and-dad and similar small operations offering good Italian style coffee rather than the Starbucks variety.
I once ordered a small flat white at a starbucks in the foyer of a Hotel that catered to airport travellers in LA. I swear they forgot to put the coffee in it. Sweet milk. yerrgh.
As an experiment, I went to the starbucks in Melbourne CBD some years later and ordered the same drink. It was a fair dinkum flat white. I was a bit disappointed as it is fashionable to disparage starbucks in Melbourne, but they made a good coffee.
Unfortunately we don't seem to have done the same to Krispy Kreme...
I’m with you on Starbucks, but I must defend Krispy Kreme, which creates doughnuts of beauty and awe—the only doughnuts truly worth eating as far as I’m concerned, much less going out of my way for. (I can’t stand cake doughnuts.)
To be fair, though, I’m from the place where Krispy Kreme was born, and I grew up on them. I know we do them right here, but I can’t vouch for Away.
IME Starbucks is very different in different places. They got a good foothold in North America (and also in some parts of Asia, though my experience is more limited) as one of the first mass-market places to treat coffee with any seriousness. SB in continental Europe is usually a disappointment - I think it exists mainly for North American tourists looking for a familiar brand, because their coffee usually lacks any sense of coffeeness - like that Flat White @Simon Toad mentions (not that LA is in continental Europe...). I’ve only been to one UK Starbucks which was in a train station and their coffee left much to be desired. Based on comments here I suspect their regular locations are probably better. It’s interesting to hear that they failed to get off the ground in Australia - looks like other people got there first much as in continental Europe.
IME Starbucks has generally been stingier than its competitors with seating in Canada - I’m sure there are locations that are exceptions, but I can’t think of any offhand. Curiously Hong Kong has some astronomically expensive real estate with generously sized Starbucks on them - maybe not quite like the London locations @chrisstiles mentions but bigger than the Canadian standard.
My experience of Starbucks in the UK and across London is that they provide the spaces -the one on Great Portland Street had a huge downstairs, although I'm not sure it's still there. They were great when I was working across most of London and needed somewhere to sit down with WiFi and often charging points to write up notes between meetings. I've also hit an Edinburgh one as it opened (as I came off the overnight coach) and worked there for a couple of hours until it started getting busy; not the only one on my travels. I could usually find a single table out of the way.
The coffee left much to be desired. They also aren't great for gluten free or dairy free; even if dairy free alternatives are on offer, there doesn't seem to be much realisation that keeping the two separate might be required.
The coffee left much to be desired. They also aren't great for gluten free or dairy free; even if dairy free alternatives are on offer, there doesn't seem to be much realisation that keeping the two separate might be required.
What happened in Australia is that we ended our bias in favor of British immigrants in the 1950's, and migrants from southern Europe bought their coffee cultures with them. One guy imported an espresso machine at no doubt huge expense sometime in the 1950's I think, and by the 1970's, espresso was established as the coffee of the bohemians in the inner city. By the 1990's, there was no stopping our addiction to great coffee.
I in no way seek to disrespect British people in this post, as my people are the meat and three veg type of Anglo-Australians. I found out the other day that someone with my surname was made a blessed by the Pope in 1992 for helping an Anglo Irish rebel lord flee from Elizabethan justice to Spain. He was one of the Wexford Martyrs, and in my book that makes me a member of a Holy Family.
Curious that good Italian coffee took off in Australia that way. There is no shortage of Italians in Toronto but I don’t think it non-insipid coffee ever took off as a mass phenomenon until Starbucks.
Your earlier post reminds me that Starbucks now serves vast quantities of insipid coffee in North America, with their lighter blends and/or overmilked and oversweetened espresso-based drinks. As I recall they made their name in quality drip coffee way back when (early 1990s?) with what is now their dark roast, which was much more coffee-like than the insipid stuff their competition was selling at the time. To my mind it’s still a very decent cup of coffee. Some of their other coffees, not so much.
Krispy Kreem is for people who don't like real donuts. What disgusting things they sell.
I’ve never had a Krispy Kreem, so I couldn’t comment.
But no one will shake me from the sure and certain knowledge that a warm Krispy Kreme—which is a doughnut, not a (blech) donut—is a gift of heaven. I will simply pity those benighted enough not to appreciate that gift, and be glad that leaves more for me.
It’s always interesting to watch when people bring doughnuts into the office. (Or at least it was, back when we were in the office.) If it’s Krispy Kreme that are brought in, they go fast and you’d better move if you want one or care about what kind you get. If it’s something other than Krispy Kreme, you have plenty of time; there’ll still be some left in the afternoon.
And yes, my family and I have been regular participants in the Krispy Kreme Challenge, though as “casual,” not challenge, runners, meaning we can hold off eating our dozen doughnuts until after the race.
In my experience, the best donuts are served in independent mom-and-pop donut shops that don't follow corporate-dictated recipes such as those of Krispy Kreme or Duncan Donuts. Fortunately there is one such mom-and-pop place within driving distance of my apartment, and another one not much farther away.
As for Starbucks, well, I have trouble getting past the fact that words such as small, medium and large are too hoi polloi to describe their offerings. But aside from that, just about all of their coffees are too strong for my taste, and I like strong coffee.
As for Starbucks, well, I have trouble getting past the fact that words such as small, medium and large are too hoi polloi to describe their offerings. But aside from that, just about all of their coffees are too strong for my taste, and I like strong coffee.
I think the opposite was a common complaint about Starbucks here - rather it was that the coffee as noted for stretching what could be extracted from too few beans. As Simon Toad points out, the history of good coffee here revolves around those migrating from Southern Europe after WW II. A prime mover in Sydney was in fact not Italian, but Greek - George Andronicus, whose café near Circular Quay was the first to use an espresso machine in the early 50's. A half dozen years later, coffee bars had spread across the metropolitan area, and many of those were open well into the evening - just the place for a young lad with little money to meet others away from a restrictive home environment. Then by the early 60's, when I reached uni, on campus coffee shops were in full swing. The place to be at 11 am was a new coffee bar on the top floor of the Women's Union. Nostalgia strikes home.
Krispy Kreem is for people who don't like real donuts. What disgusting things they sell.
I’ve never had a Krispy Kreem, so I couldn’t comment.
But no one will shake me from the sure and certain knowledge that a warm Krispy Kreme—which is a doughnut, not a (blech) donut—is a gift of heaven. I will simply pity those benighted enough not to appreciate that gift, and be glad that leaves more for me.
It’s always interesting to watch when people bring doughnuts into the office. (Or at least it was, back when we were in the office.) If it’s Krispy Kreme that are brought in, they go fast and you’d better move if you want one or care about what kind you get. If it’s something other than Krispy Kreme, you have plenty of time; there’ll still be some left in the afternoon.
And yes, my family and I have been regular participants in the Krispy Kreme Challenge, though as “casual,” not challenge, runners, meaning we can hold off eating our dozen doughnuts until after the race.
Yeah, well, such nasty donuts don't deserve to be spelled right.
As for whingeing about words snookums doesn't like, that's a different thread.
I'm not particularly invested in the donut discussion. I am very much a fan of bread though. I sometimes hear bread calling to me, "Simon, Simon, I feel myself going stale. I don't have long. Save me from this end Simon. Be the vessel of my fulfilment."
ohhh dear... that was seriously me for a few years of my first long-term relationship. Her family was vegetarian, and I went along with that for years. But then, every now and then, someone would offer me a sausage, and it just got worse and worse. I became a secret meat eater, right up until I went on a bucks night in Adelaide and got talked into ordering a meat dish. I ordered quail, and that was it. From that moment I was nicknamed "roadkill" and my secret was out.
Krispy Kreme can over here with great fanfare and really didn’t take off. There are a few cafes dotted around the UK, but mostly they are sold in glass cases in Supermarkets.
Tim Horton’s has made it over recently with mixed results.
Starbucks bought out The Seattle Coffee company here in the UK.
Costa was started by Italians here in the UK, and is now owned by Coke. Most chain stores don’t polish their milk properly but t do a decent job.
One of our Churches has a coffee shop, run not for profit. They have a ‘tea and coffee tree’ with tokens so you can buy them to hang on the tree for those who can’t afford it. It’s staffed by volunteers.
The coffee shop is there for hanging out, chatting, reading, sketching, working, whatever. It’s in a nice new purpose built building and serves excellent (proper with beans and machine) coffee and home made cakes. It’s well patronised and nobody is ever chased out.
I use it for puppy training and my pups are well known there. Baby pups sometimes bark in cafes and I feel less worried about it here - the staff are so good about it. We are allowed in all cafes but this is my favourite.
I can’t wait until it opens again after Covid19. No cafes are open round here and haven’t been since the end of June 🥲
There was a Krispy Kreme place opened up in Bluewater, just down the road from me, and I went and watched their machinery producing the things, with the intention of trying them. But, watching their machine, I noticed how seldom it was cleaned, and how long bits which dropped off were hanging around in a warm and moist atmosphere, and never did try any.
Heat the milk creating as few large bubbles as possible. Once heated let it sit for a second or two to let the the milk settle. Hit the base of the jug on the work surface to get rid of any final big bubbles and turn it vigorously in the jug. That way the milk kind of shines and gives a smooth texture and a fuller flavour.
They're coming back. Ironically, trying to establish a presence in Australia by appealing to non-Australians.
They may find that hard. One of the 3 Sydney Starbucks of which I know is in a suburb with may residents who've arrived in the last 20 or so years, but reasonably well off. That Starbucks is usually more than half empty as we walk past, while other nearby coffee shops are packed.
I have a Siemens bean to cup machine, it makes terrific coffee. I go to coffee shops for human company which is far more important than what I drink, although good coffee is an aspect - obviously. ☕️
They are actually quite light and soft. When warm, they melt in your mouth.
Mass produced food never has any real texture: apparently if your mouth doesn't feel any resistance
it makes you feel like you haven't eaten anything yet, so you end up eating more than is strictly healthy.
The name is offputting. Doughnuts should be soft, not crispy. They sound stale just from the name alone.
They are actually quite light and soft. When warm, they melt in your mouth.
That's as maybe, but then why is crispy in the name, albeit spelled in a copyrightable fashion?
Couldn’t tell you. Krispy Kreme is what they’ve been called since they started in the 1930s, and at least some sources suggest the origin of the name, or something like it, may go back further, with the recipe that was bought from a New Orleans chef.
And I don’t know what to tell you about the prices. Here, a dozen of the original glazed is $7.99, or $0.66 cents apiece.
Seriously, and all doughnut/donut wars aside, I think this probably falls squarely into the regional preferences and foodways category. Krispy Kremes and similar yeast doughnuts are what I and most others who are native here grew up on, while cake doughnuts are seen as something imported from elsewhere. We all probably sold Krispy Kremes at some point as part of a school or church fundraiser, and Lord knows we bought them. We’ve all salivated at the “Hot Now” sign. My wife started out at a women’s college with a Krispy Kreme next door, and can wax poetic about the aroma when they were cooking. In short, they are woven into the culture here in ways that no other doughnut or pastry approaches.
They’re also, I guess, a tangent from the thread topic, so I’ll try to fight my instinct to sing the praises of Krispy Kreme and feeding the tangent.
The name is offputting. Doughnuts should be soft, not crispy. They sound stale just from the name alone.
They are actually quite light and soft. When warm, they melt in your mouth.
That's as maybe, but then why is crispy in the name, albeit spelled in a copyrightable fashion?
Couldn’t tell you. Krispy Kreme is what they’ve been called since they started in the 1930s, and at least some sources suggest the origin of the name, or something like it, may go back further, with the recipe that was bought from a New Orleans chef.
And I don’t know what to tell you about the prices. Here, a dozen of the original glazed is $7.99, or $0.66 cents apiece.
Seriously, and all doughnut/donut wars aside, I think this probably falls squarely into the regional preferences and foodways category. Krispy Kremes and similar yeast doughnuts are what I and most others who are native here grew up on, while cake doughnuts are seen as something imported from elsewhere. We all probably sold Krispy Kremes at some point as part of a school or church fundraiser, and Lord knows we bought them. We’ve all salivated at the “Hot Now” sign. My wife started out at a women’s college with a Krispy Kreme next door, and can wax poetic about the aroma when they were cooking. In short, they are woven into the culture here in ways that no other doughnut or pastry approaches.
They’re also, I guess, a tangent from the thread topic, so I’ll try to fight my instinct to sing the praises of Krispy Kreme and feeding the tangent.
The name is offputting. Doughnuts should be soft, not crispy. They sound stale just from the name alone.
They are actually quite light and soft. When warm, they melt in your mouth.
That's as maybe, but then why is crispy in the name, albeit spelled in a copyrightable fashion?
Couldn’t tell you. Krispy Kreme is what they’ve been called since they started in the 1930s, and at least some sources suggest the origin of the name, or something like it, may go back further, with the recipe that was bought from a New Orleans chef.
And I don’t know what to tell you about the prices. Here, a dozen of the original glazed is $7.99, or $0.66 cents apiece.
Seriously, and all doughnut/donut wars aside, I think this probably falls squarely into the regional preferences and foodways category. Krispy Kremes and similar yeast doughnuts are what I and most others who are native here grew up on, while cake doughnuts are seen as something imported from elsewhere. We all probably sold Krispy Kremes at some point as part of a school or church fundraiser, and Lord knows we bought them. We’ve all salivated at the “Hot Now” sign. My wife started out at a women’s college with a Krispy Kreme next door, and can wax poetic about the aroma when they were cooking. In short, they are woven into the culture here in ways that no other doughnut or pastry approaches.
They’re also, I guess, a tangent from the thread topic, so I’ll try to fight my instinct to sing the praises of Krispy Kreme and feeding the tangent.
Nick Tamen do they beat the dreaded Hostess Twinkies? They were melded into the psyche back in 1957 when my parents were posted to NYC for 3 years & the 3 of us encountered not only the telly but also synthetic baked good US-style🙀😂
I do wonder if something was lost in translation, as it were, when they expanded out of the American South—if what people get elsewhere are what we get here. It wouldn’t be the first time expansion was accompanied by loss of quality.
They are actually quite light and soft. When warm, they melt in your mouth.
Mass produced food never has any real texture: apparently if your mouth doesn't feel any resistance it makes you feel like you haven't eaten anything yet, so you end up eating more than is strictly healthy.
Not doubting you, but do you have a citation for that? I'm generally interested in how the fast food industry makes us consume.
Can someone tell me why we even Have multinational coffee chain outlets?
Because of business and capitalism.
As I said Starbucks took over an indigenous coffee chain here in the UK called The Seattle Coffee Company. Costa was started by Italians and then bought out twice. Coca Cola who own it now want to use it to take on Starbucks.
I am trying to refrain from getting into saving seats argument as most of the people I know say that coffee shops are like pubs. You sit down then you order.
I remember this whole debate from 40 years ago (pre-Internet!) when I was living in Lisbon. There are two long-standing coffee cultures there: the quick "Have a quick expresso while standing up and then leave" and the "Sit all morning with your newspaper". The leading newspaper I remember carried an article on how long patrons should be allowed to sit with just one coffee ... with similar responses to the ones on this thread!
Comments
Starbucks was a complete commercial disaster here. I can't remember how many shops they opened, but we now know only 3 - 1 each at the international terminal at the airport, in the central city and at a nearby shopping centre main street. The market here had already been taken by mum-and-dad and similar small operations offering good Italian style coffee rather than the Starbucks variety.
As an experiment, I went to the starbucks in Melbourne CBD some years later and ordered the same drink. It was a fair dinkum flat white. I was a bit disappointed as it is fashionable to disparage starbucks in Melbourne, but they made a good coffee.
Unfortunately we don't seem to have done the same to Krispy Kreme...
To be fair, though, I’m from the place where Krispy Kreme was born, and I grew up on them. I know we do them right here, but I can’t vouch for Away.
IME Starbucks has generally been stingier than its competitors with seating in Canada - I’m sure there are locations that are exceptions, but I can’t think of any offhand. Curiously Hong Kong has some astronomically expensive real estate with generously sized Starbucks on them - maybe not quite like the London locations @chrisstiles mentions but bigger than the Canadian standard.
The coffee left much to be desired. They also aren't great for gluten free or dairy free; even if dairy free alternatives are on offer, there doesn't seem to be much realisation that keeping the two separate might be required.
They seem to be strong on coffee free.
I in no way seek to disrespect British people in this post, as my people are the meat and three veg type of Anglo-Australians. I found out the other day that someone with my surname was made a blessed by the Pope in 1992 for helping an Anglo Irish rebel lord flee from Elizabethan justice to Spain. He was one of the Wexford Martyrs, and in my book that makes me a member of a Holy Family.
Your earlier post reminds me that Starbucks now serves vast quantities of insipid coffee in North America, with their lighter blends and/or overmilked and oversweetened espresso-based drinks. As I recall they made their name in quality drip coffee way back when (early 1990s?) with what is now their dark roast, which was much more coffee-like than the insipid stuff their competition was selling at the time. To my mind it’s still a very decent cup of coffee. Some of their other coffees, not so much.
But no one will shake me from the sure and certain knowledge that a warm Krispy Kreme—which is a doughnut, not a (blech) donut—is a gift of heaven. I will simply pity those benighted enough not to appreciate that gift, and be glad that leaves more for me.
It’s always interesting to watch when people bring doughnuts into the office. (Or at least it was, back when we were in the office.) If it’s Krispy Kreme that are brought in, they go fast and you’d better move if you want one or care about what kind you get. If it’s something other than Krispy Kreme, you have plenty of time; there’ll still be some left in the afternoon.
And yes, my family and I have been regular participants in the Krispy Kreme Challenge, though as “casual,” not challenge, runners, meaning we can hold off eating our dozen doughnuts until after the race.
As for Starbucks, well, I have trouble getting past the fact that words such as small, medium and large are too hoi polloi to describe their offerings. But aside from that, just about all of their coffees are too strong for my taste, and I like strong coffee.
I hope you're not expecting us to genuflect, or to light candles to you...
I think the opposite was a common complaint about Starbucks here - rather it was that the coffee as noted for stretching what could be extracted from too few beans. As Simon Toad points out, the history of good coffee here revolves around those migrating from Southern Europe after WW II. A prime mover in Sydney was in fact not Italian, but Greek - George Andronicus, whose café near Circular Quay was the first to use an espresso machine in the early 50's. A half dozen years later, coffee bars had spread across the metropolitan area, and many of those were open well into the evening - just the place for a young lad with little money to meet others away from a restrictive home environment. Then by the early 60's, when I reached uni, on campus coffee shops were in full swing. The place to be at 11 am was a new coffee bar on the top floor of the Women's Union. Nostalgia strikes home.
only in mocking parody
Spookily, my blessed ancestor was a fisherman. I wonder if I wear the same sized shoe...
Yeah, well, such nasty donuts don't deserve to be spelled right.
As for whingeing about words snookums doesn't like, that's a different thread.
Ummm...
{Breaks out emergency intervention supplies.}
Ok, you really need to watch this: "Junk-Food Junkie", performed by Larry Groce. (Video with closed captioning.)
Full lyrics at Oldie Lyrics.
Tim Horton’s has made it over recently with mixed results.
Starbucks bought out The Seattle Coffee company here in the UK.
Costa was started by Italians here in the UK, and is now owned by Coke. Most chain stores don’t polish their milk properly but t do a decent job.
The coffee shop is there for hanging out, chatting, reading, sketching, working, whatever. It’s in a nice new purpose built building and serves excellent (proper with beans and machine) coffee and home made cakes. It’s well patronised and nobody is ever chased out.
I use it for puppy training and my pups are well known there. Baby pups sometimes bark in cafes and I feel less worried about it here - the staff are so good about it. We are allowed in all cafes but this is my favourite.
I can’t wait until it opens again after Covid19. No cafes are open round here and haven’t been since the end of June 🥲
That they cost several times as much as other companies' offerings doesn't help.
Like the horrendous Krispy Kremes, it's too sweet and sadly lacking in flavour.
To give a better taste and texture.
Heat the milk creating as few large bubbles as possible. Once heated let it sit for a second or two to let the the milk settle. Hit the base of the jug on the work surface to get rid of any final big bubbles and turn it vigorously in the jug. That way the milk kind of shines and gives a smooth texture and a fuller flavour.
Haters gonna hate, bless your heart.
They're coming back. Ironically, trying to establish a presence in Australia by appealing to non-Australians.
That's as maybe, but then why is crispy in the name, albeit spelled in a copyrightable fashion?
Cream doesn't belong anywhere near doughnuts either.
They've got a massive job to get me past the unappetising name (which sounds like something stale covered in cream) and their risible pricing.
They may find that hard. One of the 3 Sydney Starbucks of which I know is in a suburb with may residents who've arrived in the last 20 or so years, but reasonably well off. That Starbucks is usually more than half empty as we walk past, while other nearby coffee shops are packed.
it makes you feel like you haven't eaten anything yet, so you end up eating more than is strictly healthy.
And I don’t know what to tell you about the prices. Here, a dozen of the original glazed is $7.99, or $0.66 cents apiece.
Seriously, and all doughnut/donut wars aside, I think this probably falls squarely into the regional preferences and foodways category. Krispy Kremes and similar yeast doughnuts are what I and most others who are native here grew up on, while cake doughnuts are seen as something imported from elsewhere. We all probably sold Krispy Kremes at some point as part of a school or church fundraiser, and Lord knows we bought them. We’ve all salivated at the “Hot Now” sign. My wife started out at a women’s college with a Krispy Kreme next door, and can wax poetic about the aroma when they were cooking. In short, they are woven into the culture here in ways that no other doughnut or pastry approaches.
They’re also, I guess, a tangent from the thread topic, so I’ll try to fight my instinct to sing the praises of Krispy Kreme and feeding the tangent.
Nick Tamen do they beat the dreaded Hostess Twinkies? They were melded into the psyche back in 1957 when my parents were posted to NYC for 3 years & the 3 of us encountered not only the telly but also synthetic baked good US-style🙀😂
Go to a supermarket you can buy a pack of five large doughnuts for under a quid.
I can't see how they can have much of a market.
Not doubting you, but do you have a citation for that? I'm generally interested in how the fast food industry makes us consume.
Oh Lord. They don't pee on the floor, do they?
Because of business and capitalism.
As I said Starbucks took over an indigenous coffee chain here in the UK called The Seattle Coffee Company. Costa was started by Italians and then bought out twice. Coca Cola who own it now want to use it to take on Starbucks.
I am trying to refrain from getting into saving seats argument as most of the people I know say that coffee shops are like pubs. You sit down then you order.