We've had more buses running where I am, specifically due to covid, because people are still needing to travel to work/school, but also wanting to distance, and not feeling safe when buses were packed, especially as not everyone on the bus wears a mask, or they slide it under their chin once they've sat down. Guess it depends where you live and population density and such. I was thinking that, as Wales has a much smaller population than England, it may not be so much of an issue having pensioners take buses at commuter times.
john holdingEcclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
@Marsupial, what was surreal about my description of coffee shops? Do you not get such a variety of customers in Ontario?
I'm not going to try to do a class analysis of who goes to Starbucks, though it does strike me as on average a more middle-class kind of place than the ubiqitous Tim Hortons (where incidentally I've never had trouble finding a seat). I do find the idea that someone with $10 to spend on lunch and 20 minutes to eat it in is somehow a priviliged person who doesn't understand coffee shop culture more than a little surreal.
Ah, okay. I suspect it's different in the UK, at least in the areas I've lived in and travelled to. But we don't have Tim Hortons. I've observed some coffee shops have more middle class customers than others, but all seem to have a mix, and I haven't observed Starbucks to be one of the more middle class ones in general. Plenty of students, as mentioned above, and where I live, also people on benefits, and it is a place where a group of recovering addicts hang out after their meetings.
So, yes, someone who regularly goes in to spend £10 on their lunch is likely to be more privileged than some of those people. I'm not sure why that's surreal. I personally couldn't afford to spend £10 on my lunch each day, but even so, I'm very aware I'm more privileged than some of these people. And as I said, I'm aware that the staff are catering for a variety of people - not just the more privileged ones.
If I were only going in for lunch each day, of course I wouldn't be aware of the regulars and the ebbs and flows and the staffs' attitudes to the regulars. I have become aware because I go at different times and can spend hours there. This is because I work part time. On the days I work, I go in early, at 7:30am, for a coffee and a relax before work. On days I don't work, I go in mid morning or the afternoon. Sometimes I go after work, before closing. So I get a sense of the vibe, I guess, the personality, the staff, the interactions, etc., that I wouldn't get if I were just popping in for lunch. Different sorts of customers at different times, for instance, and also I see that customers that I might have otherwise seen as a nuisance to staff actually have built up a rapport with staff, staff know them, and are okay with them sitting for hours.
All this seems quite logical and straightforward to me, and I'm not sure why it's surreal. Many things in this strange world strike me as surreal, but not this! Maybe you somehow interpreted what I said as a putdown, but it really wasn't. I was trying to draw attention to the various dynamics I see happening, which make it a bit more complex than 'People who stay for hours are pests and should be kicked out'.
Based on my experience in the UK over several decades, someone with ten quid to spend on lunch in the UK is far better off than someone with ten dollars in Canada to do the same (which is what Marsupial said). Mind you, in Canada that much money for lunch wouldn't be a class marker.
I'd also question the implicit assumption that the presence of students indicates lower class -- money aside, again in my experience, many students at UK universities are firmly middle class at least. Again, around here, no one "on benefits" (not a phrase we'd used but I know what you mean) could possibly afford to drink coffee at Starbucks -- it's far too expensive.
In general, though, Marsupial is calling your comments surreal because in his context, which is mine, what you describe is simply in no way related to his/my experience of Starbucks. From our perspective, what you experience there is, so to speak, a fantasyland. We are not denying that it is your experience, but it certainly is not one we recognise at all.
Full disclosure: when in the UK, I happily drink coffee at Cafe Nero.
ANd. more generally, I'm with Hugal: coffee shops are there to sell coffee and break even while doing so. Anything else is secondary. All those people who make a cup last for several hours while they play on their phones will have to find somewhere else to do so if the coffee shop they're using goes broke because no-one is buying coffee, especially if there are would-be paying customers who cannot get a seat.
@Boogie - way to go with misinformation! Fructose is fruit sugar, the simple sugar most plants produce to store energy. I've just eaten some in an apple, the carrots, peppers and other veg I had for lunch. It's not an evil in and of itself. What you are confusing it with is High Fructose Corn Syrup, a common additive to processed food whee it is not doing our diets any good. But that's a whole 'nuther issue.
So you missed the part where she said:
So low amounts are fine - such as eaten in apples and oranges.
On the subject of doughnuts: the best ones in the US come from mom and pop shops. Southern California, Los Angeles, and Long Beach are each by different outlets called the doughnut capital of the world. I can't speak for the "world" aspect of that -- it might be like the World Series -- but I do know that I've known a fair number of people who've moved here from other places and remarked upon the number of doughnut shops, especially independent doughtnut shops, we have. The best one I've tried in town is just two blocks from my job. Working from home has massively cut down on my doughnut consumption.
The last night before a colleague at Fukushima left we were out on the town having a few drinks after a good meal, and we were next to the station so Stefan took out his phone to get a picture of the outside of the gym he used. Then turned around to snap the Dunkin' Donut where he went after each session at the gym. Too lots of comments about him consumer more calories after the gym than he'd burnt off in the gym. Those things are just sugar.
@john holding - I was talking about my experience in the UK, as I several times said. And yes, students are certainly very often middle class, but also often not working and not likely to be spending much money in a coffee shop, so a different type of customer from those working and popping in for their lunch break. One coffee and lounging around all day is quite common. I was talking about the variety of people I see in Starbucks (and other coffee shops), which may well be a greater variety than you get where you are, and why a blanket 'People need to be quick drinking their coffee and then leave' doesn't really apply. I did say my experience in Canada was quite different. It doesn't seem surreal to me that coffee shop chains may be different in different parts of the world.
And yes, I converted straight to pounds without switching the number, because I remember when I was in Canada, in terms of what people made, what people found expensive, and what you could buy and such, $10 was pretty much the equivalent of £10 - my English pounds went a long way in Canada! But yes, if you actually convert it, it is more like £6 for lunch, which still would be a lot for many people here, though equally many wouldn't see it as a class marker, because it's not a lot for them. But for people on a much lower income, it would be a class marker. When I was in Canada, I knew quite a few people (students, as I myself was a student) who wouldn't be able to afford to eat lunch at a coffee shop each day, but would be able to go for a coffee a couple of times a week.
Anyway, £6 a day, Monday to Friday, would be £30 a week, which is more than my weekly food spending for all my meals. I budget for that amount to cover both groceries and coffees. And I would still count myself a privileged person, compared to plenty of the people I see in coffee shops. And people on very low income here can sometimes afford a couple of quid for a coffee, yes, and also if they stay all day, they are saving money on heating, so swings and roundabouts. And coffee shops here often have times of the day when they are quiet, and can have spacious upstairs areas that aren't very busy. Lunch time tends to be the busiest time here, and has quite a different atmosphere from it you go at, say, 7:00am.
Hope this clarifies any confusion. It is interesting that this seems surreal to some people, and I do suspect some of it is class norms rather than purely culture difference, but equally of course there is culture difference too.
On the subject of doughnuts: the best ones in the US come from mom and pop shops.
If this thread has established anything regarding doughnuts, it’s that what constitutes “the best,” or even “good,” is very much a matter of taste. I’ve rarely had doughnuts from a mom and pop shop—and I’ve tried lots—that I’d go back for a second time. Even the better ones tend to be heavier than I like; lightness is the quality I look for most in a doughnut.
When I was at university, there was a hole-in-the-wall donut shop on "the Ave" (University Way in Seattle), in a tiny storefront (if it was 10 feet wide I'm an ape) that had just enough room to walk down the aisle, an aisle of bolted-in swivel seats on a long riser, a counter, and the cooking area. The seats were always full of men in coveralls and grease smears, workers from the neighborhood on break. I went in, got two donuts and a pint of milk, and it was a wonderful breakfast. The donuts were still hot and a tiny bit crunchy in places, and heavenly. All donuts since then have been judged by that standard and found wanting.
This is Retail Employee Ranting, Intermediate Level. You'll find the Biochemistry Entry Prep Course in room 415, down to the end of the corridor and turn right.
High fructose corn syrup seems far more widely used in the US than the UK, from all I've read. When it is used here in the UK, it is called glucose-fructose syrup, and the fructose content is lower than that in the US. Though this is with EU regulations, so no doubt things will change with Brexit. I assume it's cheaper to use than simply sugar, as I observe Asda Smart Price baked beans contain it, while regular Asda brand baked beans simply have 'sugar' in the ingredients.
A lot of corn is produced in the US - plenty of water, good climate etc. Much more corn than would normally be used and the vast extra quantities are turned into corn syrup.
The US government gives zillions of dollars a year to the corn industry, propping up creation of far more corn than the market can bear, thus driving the search for more markets. Fuel is one market, and the government has to force gasoline companies to add it to their product, to ensure a market for fuel made by the extra corn that its subsidies engender. Part of the beautiful kleptocracy that is the US government.
This is Retail Employee Ranting, Intermediate Level. You'll find the Biochemistry Entry Prep Course in room 415, down to the end of the corridor and turn right.
I do wonder if something was lost in translation, as it were, when they expanded out of the American South—if what people get elsewhere are what we get here. It wouldn’t be the first time expansion was accompanied by loss of quality.
Many Irish people will tell you that the further away you get from where the Guinness is brewed, the worse it tastes. That used to be just the brewery in Dublin, I am told, but my mate tells me that it is now considered acceptable to brew the beer elsewhere.
On the subject of doughnuts: the best ones in the US come from mom and pop shops.
If this thread has established anything regarding doughnuts, it’s that what constitutes “the best,” or even “good,” is very much a matter of taste. I’ve rarely had doughnuts from a mom and pop shop—and I’ve tried lots—that I’d go back for a second time. Even the better ones tend to be heavier than I like; lightness is the quality I look for most in a doughnut.
I thought it was understood that folks are just going to say "this is the best" when what they mean is "this is what I like." De gustibus non disputandum.
This is Retail Employee Ranting, Intermediate Level. You'll find the Biochemistry Entry Prep Course in room 415, down to the end of the corridor and turn right.
Wait--this isn't the Argument Room???
The gathering was too large and we had to split into subgroups.
On the subject of doughnuts: the best ones in the US come from mom and pop shops.
If this thread has established anything regarding doughnuts, it’s that what constitutes “the best,” or even “good,” is very much a matter of taste. I’ve rarely had doughnuts from a mom and pop shop—and I’ve tried lots—that I’d go back for a second time. Even the better ones tend to be heavier than I like; lightness is the quality I look for most in a doughnut.
I thought it was understood that folks are just going to say "this is the best" when what they mean is "this is what I like." De gustibus non disputandum.
Mass produced food never has any real texture: apparently if your mouth doesn't feel any resistance it makes you feel like you haven't eaten anything yet, so you end up eating more than is strictly healthy.
Not doubting you, but do you have a citation for that? I'm generally interested in how the fast food industry makes us consume.
Mass produced food never has any real texture: apparently if your mouth doesn't feel any resistance it makes you feel like you haven't eaten anything yet, so you end up eating more than is strictly healthy.
Not doubting you, but do you have a citation for that? I'm generally interested in how the fast food industry makes us consume.
Comments
Based on my experience in the UK over several decades, someone with ten quid to spend on lunch in the UK is far better off than someone with ten dollars in Canada to do the same (which is what Marsupial said). Mind you, in Canada that much money for lunch wouldn't be a class marker.
I'd also question the implicit assumption that the presence of students indicates lower class -- money aside, again in my experience, many students at UK universities are firmly middle class at least. Again, around here, no one "on benefits" (not a phrase we'd used but I know what you mean) could possibly afford to drink coffee at Starbucks -- it's far too expensive.
In general, though, Marsupial is calling your comments surreal because in his context, which is mine, what you describe is simply in no way related to his/my experience of Starbucks. From our perspective, what you experience there is, so to speak, a fantasyland. We are not denying that it is your experience, but it certainly is not one we recognise at all.
Full disclosure: when in the UK, I happily drink coffee at Cafe Nero.
ANd. more generally, I'm with Hugal: coffee shops are there to sell coffee and break even while doing so. Anything else is secondary. All those people who make a cup last for several hours while they play on their phones will have to find somewhere else to do so if the coffee shop they're using goes broke because no-one is buying coffee, especially if there are would-be paying customers who cannot get a seat.
So you missed the part where she said:
On the subject of doughnuts: the best ones in the US come from mom and pop shops. Southern California, Los Angeles, and Long Beach are each by different outlets called the doughnut capital of the world. I can't speak for the "world" aspect of that -- it might be like the World Series -- but I do know that I've known a fair number of people who've moved here from other places and remarked upon the number of doughnut shops, especially independent doughtnut shops, we have. The best one I've tried in town is just two blocks from my job. Working from home has massively cut down on my doughnut consumption.
And yes, I converted straight to pounds without switching the number, because I remember when I was in Canada, in terms of what people made, what people found expensive, and what you could buy and such, $10 was pretty much the equivalent of £10 - my English pounds went a long way in Canada! But yes, if you actually convert it, it is more like £6 for lunch, which still would be a lot for many people here, though equally many wouldn't see it as a class marker, because it's not a lot for them. But for people on a much lower income, it would be a class marker. When I was in Canada, I knew quite a few people (students, as I myself was a student) who wouldn't be able to afford to eat lunch at a coffee shop each day, but would be able to go for a coffee a couple of times a week.
Anyway, £6 a day, Monday to Friday, would be £30 a week, which is more than my weekly food spending for all my meals. I budget for that amount to cover both groceries and coffees. And I would still count myself a privileged person, compared to plenty of the people I see in coffee shops. And people on very low income here can sometimes afford a couple of quid for a coffee, yes, and also if they stay all day, they are saving money on heating, so swings and roundabouts. And coffee shops here often have times of the day when they are quiet, and can have spacious upstairs areas that aren't very busy. Lunch time tends to be the busiest time here, and has quite a different atmosphere from it you go at, say, 7:00am.
Hope this clarifies any confusion. It is interesting that this seems surreal to some people, and I do suspect some of it is class norms rather than purely culture difference, but equally of course there is culture difference too.
Wait--this isn't the Argument Room???
A lot of corn is produced in the US - plenty of water, good climate etc. Much more corn than would normally be used and the vast extra quantities are turned into corn syrup.
No, I'm sorry that's dow
Many Irish people will tell you that the further away you get from where the Guinness is brewed, the worse it tastes. That used to be just the brewery in Dublin, I am told, but my mate tells me that it is now considered acceptable to brew the beer elsewhere.
No, no, this is abuse.
I thought it was understood that folks are just going to say "this is the best" when what they mean is "this is what I like." De gustibus non disputandum.
The gathering was too large and we had to split into subgroups.
(And no, I don't know what that means, I've just heard people talk meaningfully about it.)
I prefer both pubs and coffee shops to be independent.
From the Guardian
Cheers.
Agreed. A group of people having coffee in your pub puts a bit of a dampener on the atmosphere.