Well, maybe I thought my state was being ignored. As pointed out above, though, Hollywood is not exactly liberal nor is Washington DC exactly liberal either. As I said, the Municipality of DC is liberal, but the Federal Government is very conservative.
Yeah, I don't know what "Hollywood values" are supposed to be, and I'm only 30 miles away. Maybe "Hollywood values" is short for "charge people to see violence and women's breasts in formulaic re-makes of the same six scripts in order to make a few rich white guys even richer."
Yeah, I don't know what "Hollywood values" are supposed to be, and I'm only 30 miles away. Maybe "Hollywood values" is short for "charge people to see violence and women's breasts in formulaic re-makes of the same six scripts in order to make a few rich white guys even richer."
Yeah, I don't know what "Hollywood values" are supposed to be, and I'm only 30 miles away. Maybe "Hollywood values" is short for "charge people to see violence and women's breasts in formulaic re-makes of the same six scripts in order to make a few rich white guys even richer."
Well, I think it's kinda like a rorschach test, different people see it differently depending where they are on the sociopolitical spectrum. The shows you regard as capitalist exploitation of women's bodies a right-winger will regard as shameless pandering to sinful lust, which he in turn associates with a liberal or left-wing worldview.
Yeah, I don't know what "Hollywood values" are supposed to be, and I'm only 30 miles away. Maybe "Hollywood values" is short for "charge people to see violence and women's breasts in formulaic re-makes of the same six scripts in order to make a few rich white guys even richer."
Well, I think it's kinda like a rorschach test, different people see it differently depending where they are on the sociopolitical spectrum. The shows you regard as capitalist exploitation of women's bodies a right-winger will regard as shameless pandering to sinful lust, which he in turn associates with a liberal or left-wing worldview.
And after such persons have devoted themselves to Donald J. Trump, no one need ever take these protestations seriously ever again.
Yeah, I don't know what "Hollywood values" are supposed to be, and I'm only 30 miles away. Maybe "Hollywood values" is short for "charge people to see violence and women's breasts in formulaic re-makes of the same six scripts in order to make a few rich white guys even richer."
Well, I think it's kinda like a rorschach test, different people see it differently depending where they are on the sociopolitical spectrum. The shows you regard as capitalist exploitation of women's bodies a right-winger will regard as shameless pandering to sinful lust, which he in turn associates with a liberal or left-wing worldview.
And after such persons have devoted themselves to Donald J. Trump, no one need ever take these protestations seriously ever again.
Big Secret ... Shhhh ... !!! ... While the Fundamentalist-"Evangelicals" have wedded themselves to the GOP, very many GOPs are in fact decidedly "Libertarian" in matters of personal behavior but the are just more quiet about it ...
I have a friend who grew up in a small town in Mississippi who said it was hilarious how Baptists there pretended not to see each other at the liquor store.
I have a friend who grew up in a small town in Mississippi who said it was hilarious how Baptists there pretended not to see each other at the liquor store.
I have a friend who grew up in a small town in Mississippi who said it was hilarious how Baptists there pretended not to see each other at the liquor store.
Surely they were just visiting for the articles?
No, no, no. They were there to get boxes, I’m sure.
(In North Carolina at least, the ABC—i.e. liquor—store is the prime source for boxes for packing, and the boxes provide prime cover.)
In a town in NW Washington, there were check out lines at two doors, the front door which the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and other sinners would use; and the back door which the Reformed and the Baptists, and the righteous people would use.
In a town in NW Washington, there were check out lines at two doors, the front door which the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and other sinners would use; and the back door which the Reformed and the Baptists, and the righteous people would use.
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
In a town in NW Washington, there were check out lines at two doors, the front door which the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and other sinners would use; and the back door which the Reformed and the Baptists, and the righteous people would use.
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
As would most Presbyterians I knew back in Canada, though I also believe that Presbyterians were a big part of the Temperance movements in Canada.
(Though Reformed per se I had little direct contact with.)
I have a friend who grew up in a small town in Mississippi who said it was hilarious how Baptists there pretended not to see each other at the liquor store.
Surely they were just visiting for the articles?
No, no, no. They were there to get boxes, I’m sure.
(In North Carolina at least, the ABC—i.e. liquor—store is the prime source for boxes for packing, and the boxes provide prime cover.)
LOL ... Yes .. Many of the boxes come conveniently PRE-packed with popular liquids ...
Should have mentioned the group I was referring to are Dutch Reformed which is a very conservative group that says it prefers abstinence with alcohol.
Do you mean they actually go by the name "Dutch Reformed", like the South African church does?
The Reformed churches in Canada are just called "Reformed", no "Dutch" added, but Dutch people usually seem to be the majority of their congregations, by a longshot.
(And FWIW the Presbyterians I mentioned earlier are mostly members of the United Church Of Canada, though very Presbyterian in their outlook.)
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
It depends on those in your Reformed category. Few Presbyterians amongst the temperance movement here, but most (if not all) Methodists or Congregationalists would have been. Since the big merger into the Uniting Church, and the contemporary boost in the wine industry, these lines have largely disappeared.
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
It depends on those in your Reformed category. Few Presbyterians amongst the temperance movement here, but most (if not all) Methodists or Congregationalists would have been.
Methodists have never fallen in any Reformed category, except through merger with Reformed churches (like Presbyterians and Congregationalists).
Should have mentioned the group I was referring to are Dutch Reformed which is a very conservative group that says it prefers abstinence with alcohol.
Do you mean they actually go by the name "Dutch Reformed", like the South African church does?
The Reformed churches in Canada are just called "Reformed", no "Dutch" added, but Dutch people usually seem to be the majority of their congregations, by a longshot.
The primary Reformed bodies in North America that go by that label are the Reformed Church in America and the Christian Reformed Church in North America. Both are North American iterations/descendants of the Dutch Reformed Church, and I’ve heard people in both self-identify as both Reformed and Dutch Reformed. There’s also the much smaller and more conservative Canadian and American Reformed Churches, also Dutch Reformed.
The German Reformed, at least in the US, are now primarily in the United Church of Christ, though again, a small conservative remnant can be found in the Reformed Church in the United States.
Should have mentioned the group I was referring to are Dutch Reformed which is a very conservative group that says it prefers abstinence with alcohol.
Do you mean they actually go by the name "Dutch Reformed", like the South African church does?
The Reformed churches in Canada are just called "Reformed", no "Dutch" added, but Dutch people usually seem to be the majority of their congregations, by a longshot.
As far as I know, none of the churches in the US which stem from the Dutch Reformed Church in the Netherlands uses "Dutch" in its official name, but colloquially many are called Dutch Reformed. I dated a guy a while back whose parents came to the US from the Netherlands after WWII, and he said he was brought up in the Dutch Reformed Church.
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
It depends on those in your Reformed category. Few Presbyterians amongst the temperance movement here, but most (if not all) Methodists or Congregationalists would have been.
Methodists have never fallen in any Reformed category, except through merger with Reformed churches (like Presbyterians and Congregationalists).
Are you using Reformed in the German sense then? It's a description not often used here with an "R".
Should have mentioned the group I was referring to are Dutch Reformed which is a very conservative group that says it prefers abstinence with alcohol.
I assumed you had meant the Dutch Reformed. We have a huge cohort in eastern Ontario who arrived after WWII-- young Dutch women had married their liberators in droves, including the bold highlanders of Lanark and Glengarry (when they looked around the grubby farms of their new home, they wrote to their families that the land was inexpensive and the fools did not know how to farm, and a second wave came about the same time as the great floods of the polders). Accordingly I knew many of them at school, and their families divided into two factions-- one which was virulently anti-alcohol, and the other with flagons of ale after a day's work, and a glass of genever on Sundays. Even among the latter, alcohol would only come out if they knew you well, as they would not want knowledge of their "weakness" to get about.
There is a parallel community in Michigan where they were the backers of Gerald Ford and who still retain their Republican loyalties.
Scots Presbyterians also enjoyed their dram, and those who attended their funerals would be invited to walk around back of the church hall where a shot of rye would enrich one's tea.
But back to the OP. The general fallen-ness of the religious right is now a major cultural trope. Once it was just the occasional (dramatically) sinning preacher (can we remember "Help the Shepherd, Help the Sheep?"), but there is now a significant body of research, some of which suggests that divorce is more common among US evangelicals than among other Christians, and even that amorous exuberance appears to have no limits among them. Teenage pregnancies among US evangelicals are fairly frequent, owing to an abstinence-only sex education approach, but I've not seen research which suggests that it is more common than among non-evans.
Interesting. Most Reformed I know would happily number themselves among the sinners when it comes to drink.
It depends on those in your Reformed category. Few Presbyterians amongst the temperance movement here, but most (if not all) Methodists or Congregationalists would have been.
Methodists have never fallen in any Reformed category, except through merger with Reformed churches (like Presbyterians and Congregationalists).
Are you using Reformed in the German sense then? It's a description not often used here with an "R".
I'm using it in the sense signaled by the capital "R" to mean that branch of Protestantism with roots in the Reformation-era reforms of John Calvin primarily, but also of Zwingli, Bucer, Farel, Bullinger, Beza and Knox. So "Reformed" as opposed to Evangelical/Lutheran, Anabaptist or Anglican (though certain earlier Anglican documents, including the XXXIX Articles, do show Reformed influences).
In Continental Europe, churches in this tradition have tended to be called "Reformed"—e.g., Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, French Reformed, etc. In Britain, "Presbyterian" and "Congregationalist" tended to be used, at least until the formation of the United Reformed Church, but Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches are part of the Reformed tradition.
The primary global body of churches in this tradition is the World Communion of Reformed Churches. The WCRC does include united/uniting churches where at least one of the predecessor bodies was in the Reformed tradition.
In addition to being Gerald Ford Country, the Reformed Bible Belt of Michigan also gave rise to Amway, whose founding families now spread their tentacles into Blackwater and the US Department Of Education.
And of course, Jim Bakker originally hails from that region, though he doesn't seem to have ever been Reformed. Robert Schuller was Reformed, though originally came from Iowa, eventually heading to Michigan for his theological studies.
I'm using it in the sense signaled by the capital "R" to mean that branch of Protestantism with roots in the Reformation-era reforms of John Calvin primarily, but also of Zwingli, Bucer, Farel, Bullinger, Beza and Knox. So "Reformed" as opposed to Evangelical/Lutheran, Anabaptist or Anglican (though certain earlier Anglican documents, including the XXXIX Articles, do show Reformed influences).Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches are part of the Reformed tradition.
I can't see any way to make the Methodists reformed, regardless of capitalization.
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
Arminians are a branch of the Reformed tradition. The Anglican tradition is mostly Reformed with a Catholic ecclesiology. The Wesleys may not have been members of a Reformed church in a narrow sense, but they were in the Reformed tradition.
In an ancestral sense, yes. But I’ve never encountered any Methodists or Methodist documents that identify Methodism as being in the Reformed tradition, and I’ve encountered a number of Methodists and Methodist documents that distinguish Methodism from the Reformed tradition.
As for Anglicans, as I said, much from Reformation-era Anglicanism and from the centuries following is indeed influenced by Reformed understandings. And then came the Oxford Movement. At least in TEC, those things like the XXXIX Articles, which reflect Reformed understandings, are recognized as “historical documents,” but that’s about the extent of it.
I can't see any way to make the Methodists reformed, regardless of capitalization.
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
I can't see any way to make the Methodists reformed, regardless of capitalization.
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
I can't see any way to make the Methodists reformed, regardless of capitalization.
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
Are we talking UMC?
Yes.
@tclune would certainly know more and understand this better than I, but my impression is that any lingering Calvinism inherited from Whitefield by Southern Methodists disappeared a long, long time ago.
I can't see any way to make the Methodists reformed, regardless of capitalization.
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
Are we talking UMC?
Yes.
@tclune would certainly know more and understand this better than I, but my impression is that any lingering Calvinism inherited from Whitefield by Southern Methodists disappeared a long, long time ago.
I do not claim to be an expert in anything, including my own denomination. My views represent a lifetime of a layman's interest, nothing more.
@tclune would certainly know more and understand this better than I, but my impression is that any lingering Calvinism inherited from Whitefield by Southern Methodists disappeared a long, long time ago.
I'd argue that Whitefield had a very long-lasting influence on white Southern Protestant theology, but it wasn't his Calvinism.
@tclune would certainly know more and understand this better than I, but my impression is that any lingering Calvinism inherited from Whitefield by Southern Methodists disappeared a long, long time ago.
I'd argue that Whitefield had a very long-lasting influence on white Southern Protestant theology, but it wasn't his Calvinism.
This may be my Arminianism talking without charity, but ISTM that Calvinism was very much a part of the Christian accommodation of slavery. If you believe that there are great swaths of humanity who are predestined for eternal damnation, it is a pretty small step to see slaves as among those benighted souls. So. like Whitefield, you may as well get some use out of them while they are on earth -- anything you can do to them pales in comparison to what the Almighty has in store for them anyway.
This may be my Arminianism talking without charity, but ISTM that Calvinism was very much a part of the Christian accommodation of slavery. If you believe that there are great swaths of humanity who are predestined for eternal damnation . . . .
Which not all Calvinists believe or believed in the 19th C. That’s one strand of Calvinism, but definitely not the only one. Whether Whitefield was in that strand, I do not know.
And that still leaves the Anglicans/Episcopalians in the South and the (Arminian) Southern Baptists. My hunch is every tradition had facets it’s adherents could latch onto to justify slavery.
My hunch is every tradition had facets it’s adherents could latch onto to justify slavery.
I think you're right on that. However, Methodism in particular had a problem in the south early-on. There was concern among the hierarchy that it was in danger of becoming a religion for women and slaves, and they were anxious to "broaden" its appeal. Emphasizing a less gentle theology was a conscious tactic of the church in the south.
In addition to being Gerald Ford Country, the Reformed Bible Belt of Michigan also gave rise to Amway, whose founding families now spread their tentacles into Blackwater and the US Department Of Education.
And of course, Jim Bakker originally hails from that region, though he doesn't seem to have ever been Reformed. Robert Schuller was Reformed, though originally came from Iowa, eventually heading to Michigan for his theological studies.
Aficonadi of the story of Robert Schuller and his Crystal Cathedral might enjoy https://newbooksnetwork.com/the-glass-church . The Cathedral is now a (real) cathedral and the see of the RC Latin Bishop of Orange in California.
In addition to being Gerald Ford Country, the Reformed Bible Belt of Michigan also gave rise to Amway, whose founding families now spread their tentacles into Blackwater and the US Department Of Education.
And of course, Jim Bakker originally hails from that region, though he doesn't seem to have ever been Reformed. Robert Schuller was Reformed, though originally came from Iowa, eventually heading to Michigan for his theological studies.
Aficonadi of the story of Robert Schuller and his Crystal Cathedral might enjoy https://newbooksnetwork.com/the-glass-church . The Cathedral is now a (real) cathedral and the see of the RC Latin Bishop of Orange in California.
Thanks, Augustine.
The Crystal Cathedral was designed by Philip Johnson, who also did the Canadian Broadcasting Centre in Toronto, de facto headquarters of our beloved CBC.
I once saw an interview with Schuller, in which he said that someone he described as "the founder of sociobiology[I'm guessing E.O. Wilson]" was involved in the conceptualization of the CC. Which would seem to indicate that Schuller was open to the ideas of Darwinism(I consider sociobiology a goofy reductionism of Darwin, but it still requires Darwin to be correct).
Not sure how sociobiology would be represented in the CC. Maybe the reflecting glass is supposed to make it appear to merge into its surrounding ecosystem?
I believe somewhere on the old Ship there was a thread about the sale of the Crystal Cathedral to the archdiocese. Perhaps I had already posted some of these comments on that one.
Doing some research, I think the "sociobiologist" Schuller consulted mighta been a guy named Rene Dubos. Though most of what I've read about him doesn't seem to link him much with that movement.
Comments
Sounds about right.
Well, I think it's kinda like a rorschach test, different people see it differently depending where they are on the sociopolitical spectrum. The shows you regard as capitalist exploitation of women's bodies a right-winger will regard as shameless pandering to sinful lust, which he in turn associates with a liberal or left-wing worldview.
Big Secret ... Shhhh ... !!! ... While the Fundamentalist-"Evangelicals" have wedded themselves to the GOP, very many GOPs are in fact decidedly "Libertarian" in matters of personal behavior but the are just more quiet about it ...
Surely they were just visiting for the articles?
(In North Carolina at least, the ABC—i.e. liquor—store is the prime source for boxes for packing, and the boxes provide prime cover.)
As would most Presbyterians I knew back in Canada, though I also believe that Presbyterians were a big part of the Temperance movements in Canada.
(Though Reformed per se I had little direct contact with.)
As I understand it beer wasn't traditionally counted as drink so much as water purification. The temperance movement was concerned with strong drink.
Lyrics are here (AZ Lyrics).
ETA: Sorry, that first link is audio only. Here's the video/audio version (YouTube).
LOL ... Yes .. Many of the boxes come conveniently PRE-packed with popular liquids ...
Do you mean they actually go by the name "Dutch Reformed", like the South African church does?
The Reformed churches in Canada are just called "Reformed", no "Dutch" added, but Dutch people usually seem to be the majority of their congregations, by a longshot.
(And FWIW the Presbyterians I mentioned earlier are mostly members of the United Church Of Canada, though very Presbyterian in their outlook.)
I lived in Mississip from 1980 to 1983, This comes close to what I experienced.
Sorry for the double post (not really).
It depends on those in your Reformed category. Few Presbyterians amongst the temperance movement here, but most (if not all) Methodists or Congregationalists would have been. Since the big merger into the Uniting Church, and the contemporary boost in the wine industry, these lines have largely disappeared.
The primary Reformed bodies in North America that go by that label are the Reformed Church in America and the Christian Reformed Church in North America. Both are North American iterations/descendants of the Dutch Reformed Church, and I’ve heard people in both self-identify as both Reformed and Dutch Reformed. There’s also the much smaller and more conservative Canadian and American Reformed Churches, also Dutch Reformed.
The German Reformed, at least in the US, are now primarily in the United Church of Christ, though again, a small conservative remnant can be found in the Reformed Church in the United States.
As far as I know, none of the churches in the US which stem from the Dutch Reformed Church in the Netherlands uses "Dutch" in its official name, but colloquially many are called Dutch Reformed. I dated a guy a while back whose parents came to the US from the Netherlands after WWII, and he said he was brought up in the Dutch Reformed Church.
I already really like Michael Lewis. But this... this is the best encapsulation of the importance of government and what's wrong with the American government I think I've heard. https://atrpodcast.com/episodes/against-the-rules-presents-axios-today-s1!4b762
I see there are several congregations in the Phoenix area, at least one of which live-streams their service. Guess what I feel coming on?
Are you using Reformed in the German sense then? It's a description not often used here with an "R".
I assumed you had meant the Dutch Reformed. We have a huge cohort in eastern Ontario who arrived after WWII-- young Dutch women had married their liberators in droves, including the bold highlanders of Lanark and Glengarry (when they looked around the grubby farms of their new home, they wrote to their families that the land was inexpensive and the fools did not know how to farm, and a second wave came about the same time as the great floods of the polders). Accordingly I knew many of them at school, and their families divided into two factions-- one which was virulently anti-alcohol, and the other with flagons of ale after a day's work, and a glass of genever on Sundays. Even among the latter, alcohol would only come out if they knew you well, as they would not want knowledge of their "weakness" to get about.
There is a parallel community in Michigan where they were the backers of Gerald Ford and who still retain their Republican loyalties.
Scots Presbyterians also enjoyed their dram, and those who attended their funerals would be invited to walk around back of the church hall where a shot of rye would enrich one's tea.
But back to the OP. The general fallen-ness of the religious right is now a major cultural trope. Once it was just the occasional (dramatically) sinning preacher (can we remember "Help the Shepherd, Help the Sheep?"), but there is now a significant body of research, some of which suggests that divorce is more common among US evangelicals than among other Christians, and even that amorous exuberance appears to have no limits among them. Teenage pregnancies among US evangelicals are fairly frequent, owing to an abstinence-only sex education approach, but I've not seen research which suggests that it is more common than among non-evans.
In Continental Europe, churches in this tradition have tended to be called "Reformed"—e.g., Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, French Reformed, etc. In Britain, "Presbyterian" and "Congregationalist" tended to be used, at least until the formation of the United Reformed Church, but Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches are part of the Reformed tradition.
The primary global body of churches in this tradition is the World Communion of Reformed Churches. The WCRC does include united/uniting churches where at least one of the predecessor bodies was in the Reformed tradition.
In addition to being Gerald Ford Country, the Reformed Bible Belt of Michigan also gave rise to Amway, whose founding families now spread their tentacles into Blackwater and the US Department Of Education.
And of course, Jim Bakker originally hails from that region, though he doesn't seem to have ever been Reformed. Robert Schuller was Reformed, though originally came from Iowa, eventually heading to Michigan for his theological studies.
Yes, I should have picked up that capital "R".
I would agree if you are talking about northern US Methodists. Southern US Methodism is Whitefieldian to the north's Wesleyan. Whitefield was a Calvinist. FWIW
As for Anglicans, as I said, much from Reformation-era Anglicanism and from the centuries following is indeed influenced by Reformed understandings. And then came the Oxford Movement. At least in TEC, those things like the XXXIX Articles, which reflect Reformed understandings, are recognized as “historical documents,” but that’s about the extent of it.
Are we talking UMC?
Yes.
I do not claim to be an expert in anything, including my own denomination. My views represent a lifetime of a layman's interest, nothing more.
I'd argue that Whitefield had a very long-lasting influence on white Southern Protestant theology, but it wasn't his Calvinism.
This may be my Arminianism talking without charity, but ISTM that Calvinism was very much a part of the Christian accommodation of slavery. If you believe that there are great swaths of humanity who are predestined for eternal damnation, it is a pretty small step to see slaves as among those benighted souls. So. like Whitefield, you may as well get some use out of them while they are on earth -- anything you can do to them pales in comparison to what the Almighty has in store for them anyway.
And that still leaves the Anglicans/Episcopalians in the South and the (Arminian) Southern Baptists. My hunch is every tradition had facets it’s adherents could latch onto to justify slavery.
I think you're right on that. However, Methodism in particular had a problem in the south early-on. There was concern among the hierarchy that it was in danger of becoming a religion for women and slaves, and they were anxious to "broaden" its appeal. Emphasizing a less gentle theology was a conscious tactic of the church in the south.
Aficonadi of the story of Robert Schuller and his Crystal Cathedral might enjoy https://newbooksnetwork.com/the-glass-church . The Cathedral is now a (real) cathedral and the see of the RC Latin Bishop of Orange in California.
Thanks, Augustine.
The Crystal Cathedral was designed by Philip Johnson, who also did the Canadian Broadcasting Centre in Toronto, de facto headquarters of our beloved CBC.
I once saw an interview with Schuller, in which he said that someone he described as "the founder of sociobiology[I'm guessing E.O. Wilson]" was involved in the conceptualization of the CC. Which would seem to indicate that Schuller was open to the ideas of Darwinism(I consider sociobiology a goofy reductionism of Darwin, but it still requires Darwin to be correct).
Not sure how sociobiology would be represented in the CC. Maybe the reflecting glass is supposed to make it appear to merge into its surrounding ecosystem?
I believe somewhere on the old Ship there was a thread about the sale of the Crystal Cathedral to the archdiocese. Perhaps I had already posted some of these comments on that one.
Am I a joke to you, then?
Given how close you are to British Columbia, there is even less excuse.