What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
China, India, Russia de facto if not de jure. UK. England. Scotland... which nation doesn't?
Israel will continue to be a pivotal sore point until the Palestinian cause becomes sufficiently meaningless over time and it just becomes a dull background ache. Palestinians will be gradually bought out of the West Bank as they are being in Jerusalem. I had a Palestinian friend who had a Christian girlfriend, Jewish friends and hated Palestinian sell-outs above all. Are there other peoples who have returned against the tides of history? Only by ascending in power. As the Rohingya never will. Nor the Uighurs, over a sanctioned China. (Oooh look, another axis of mutual self-interest.) There can never come a time when American, Russian, EU, Turkish, Saudi, Jordanian, Egyptian even Lebanese and Syrian interests can include the elimination or even weakening of Israel as a priority. Stalemate in ghastly pluralism is always best. Regime change always worse as Iraq, Syria, Libya even Afghanistan demonstrate in spades.
So, while we wring our helplessly privileged hands, is there anything we can do? Stop going to M&S?
Points well taken ...
In the meantime, the Jewish State of Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existence ... Pack a suitcase and obediently meekly report to the rail station for transportation *somewhere*else* ... ??? ... No ... Never again ..
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
The volume of criticism tends to rise not just in line with the severity of the offence but with the vociferousness of the defence. Virtually nobody I can think of would defend Saudi Arabia's many crimes, nor the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but when it comes to Israel not only can you not move for apologists but crticising Israel makes you a target for accusations of anti-semitism.
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
The volume of criticism tends to rise not just in line with the severity of the offence but with the vociferousness of the defence. Virtually nobody I can think of would defend Saudi Arabia's many crimes, nor the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but when it comes to Israel not only can you not move for apologists but crticising Israel makes you a target for accusations of anti-semitism.
Unfortunately all around, a great deal of the most severe criticism of the Jewish Stat of Israel has a great deal to do with general anti-"Jewish" ideas ... One of my own sweetly pious relatives some years ago was shaking her head and mumbling, "Those Jews ... !!! ...causing trouble again ... !!!" when The Israelis rose up to defend themselves against yet another terror attack ... And, again, I note that a lot of the critique of The State of Israel in this very forum has to do with the "Jew-ish-ness" of The State of Israel ...
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
The volume of criticism tends to rise not just in line with the severity of the offence but with the vociferousness of the defence. Virtually nobody I can think of would defend Saudi Arabia's many crimes, nor the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but when it comes to Israel not only can you not move for apologists but crticising Israel makes you a target for accusations of anti-semitism.
Unfortunately all around, a great deal of the most severe criticism of the Jewish Stat of Israel has a great deal to do with general anti-"Jewish" ideas ... One of my own sweetly pious relatives some years ago was shaking her head and mumbling, "Those Jews ... !!! ...causing trouble again ... !!!" when The Israelis rose up to defend themselves against yet another terror attack ... And, again, I note that a lot of the critique of The State of Israel in this very forum has to do with the "Jew-ish-ness" of The State of Israel ...
The Jewishness of the state is a problem because it excludes most of the native population. It's the Church of Ireland problem writ large.
And generally Israel doesn't defend itself. At best it retaliates; more commonly it provokes.
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
The volume of criticism tends to rise not just in line with the severity of the offence but with the vociferousness of the defence. Virtually nobody I can think of would defend Saudi Arabia's many crimes, nor the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but when it comes to Israel not only can you not move for apologists but crticising Israel makes you a target for accusations of anti-semitism.
Unfortunately all around, a great deal of the most severe criticism of the Jewish Stat of Israel has a great deal to do with general anti-"Jewish" ideas ... One of my own sweetly pious relatives some years ago was shaking her head and mumbling, "Those Jews ... !!! ...causing trouble again ... !!!" when The Israelis rose up to defend themselves against yet another terror attack ... And, again, I note that a lot of the critique of The State of Israel in this very forum has to do with the "Jew-ish-ness" of The State of Israel ...
The Jewishness of the state is a problem because it excludes most of the native population. It's the Church of Ireland problem writ large.
And generally Israel doesn't defend itself. At best it retaliates; more commonly it provokes.
The "Jews" *provoke* by their EXISTENCE, as per 1933-45 ...
But, yes *they* do defend themselves -- 1967 ... 1973 ... and other times ...
The Good Old Days of "Jews" meekly accepting pogroms and relocations are OVER ...
Never again ...
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a liberal democracy.
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a liberal democracy.
No indeed ... The Jewish State of Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East ...
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a liberal democracy.
No indeed ... The Jewish State of Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East ...
No indeed. They are committed to an anti-democratic end.
What other nation has the stated purpose of keeping one religious or ethnic group in the majority?
Saudi Arabia ... (and ... about 70,000,000 Americans who voted for Trump just last month ...)
Saudi Arabia, ah yes, now there's a country for Israel to proudly compare itself to. So now we have two dictatorships trying to maintain the majority of one ethnic or religious group.
And Israel can proudly compare itself to MAGAts. Israel isn't looking too good based on your comparisons.
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a liberal democracy.
No indeed ... The Jewish State of Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East ...
No indeed. They are committed to an anti-democratic end.
For sure ... ALL of Israel's neighbors are non-democratic ill-liberal societies, some worse than others ... Ironically, Muslims, Arabs, Christians and other gentiles fare much better in Israel than in say, Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria or ...
You keep changing the subject with your whataboutism. What Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria are or aren't doesn't change the fact that Israel is NOT a liberal democracy.
ISTM, Fr Teilhard, your intense pro-Israel partisanship spoils your case because it leads you to justify its activities on indefensible grounds, namely that it is a liberal democracy. The problem is that its unresolved relationship with the Palestinians, which has been unprofitably discussed ad nauseam, makes that impossible. The defence of Israel's actions is that its policy options are less a matter of choice than the product of its history, raison d'être, and strategic position. The liberal democratic solution would probably involve the re-creation of Palestine on a one person one vote basis, but that would destroy the concept of a homeland for the Jews. Like any other state Israel does what it does to survive and to expect it to behave differently is unreasonable. If anyone wishes it to behave differently it must be proved to its citizens that is where its best interests lie. All this moralism etc. is beside the point. For what it's worth, I'm just glad I don't live in the Middle East, Israel included.
For sure ... ALL of Israel's neighbors are non-democratic ill-liberal societies, some worse than others ... Ironically, Muslims, Arabs, Christians and other gentiles fare much better in Israel than in say, Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria or ...
If things are so good for non Jews in Israel, then why doesn't Israel let the Palestinian refugees return home?
What Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria are or aren't doesn't change the fact that Israel is NOT a liberal democracy.
It is enoigh of a liberal democracy, at least for those living outside the West Bank and Gaza, for its behaviour to be held to the standards expected of liberal democracy. (I don't know if the illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank get a vote: I presume they do.)
That is to say, I don't think much of the argument that because it is the only such democracy in the Middle East it is to get all of the respect due to the ideals and none of the responsibilities for living up to them.
Galilit For what it's worth ... you'd be surprised what a rich and enriching life full of meaning and significance you might live in Israel.
... and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8. I can aspire to that wherever I am; and to my last breath
Where do you want to go with this?
Your invitation to live a full life in Israel might raise the question as to how I can realise that living in a house on property that was stolen from someone else and pursue the injunction of Micah's God.
A major part of the problem is that a great historical injustice has been done to the Palestinians which continues to get worse, and the aggrieved party grows in numbers and organised resentment. It is an injustice that cannot be rectified, a least without unacceptable pain and suffering.
1. Woe to those who plan iniquity,
to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning’s light they carry it out
because it is in their power to do it.
2 They covet fields and seize them,
and houses, and take them.
They defraud people of their homes,
they rob them of their inheritance.
3 Therefore, the Lord says:
“I am planning disaster against this people,
from which you cannot save yourselves.
Well the land I live on was bought fair and square in 1922. (I checked before I even agreed to move)
As far as I can see we ALL OF US live in complicated political circumstances. I do get somewhat tired of how clever people can be from so far away sometimes. Even when I agree with them.
I have stood up for things and people and I have stood up against things and people in all the countries I have lived in. And will continue to do so. I have found things to act upon everywhere.
Call it small or only personal or pointless if you like; and indeed I am neither Mother Teresa nor Joan of Arc ... but I am doing what I can in my Home and I would like people to know that in Israel (like everywhere) there are people who, despite the structural sin under which they freely acknowledge they are living, are Doing Their Best in all kinds of ways to help, to confront, and to change
By the way, are you telling me I should leave our home just because of a government and having a minority opinion? And if so where would you suggest we go? (And don't say Aotearoa~New Zealand. I was born there and I know all its dirty little secrets)
You keep changing the subject with your whataboutism. What Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria are or aren't doesn't change the fact that Israel is NOT a liberal democracy.
To be clear, I don't know of any country or nation that is a 100% PERFECT liberal Democracy, including the USA, the UK, et al. ... Neither do I know of any nation or country or people that has the amazing -- and tenuous -- history of The People/State of Israel ...
Their situation is unique ... It is easy for us in the West to claim all manner of moral high ground over Israel ... But we do not face -- have never faced -- the genuine Existential peril of the People of Israel and the Jewish State of Israel ... century after century, decade after decade ...
Again, the fact is that the Jewish State of Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existence, meekly pack a few suitcases and report to the rail station for transport *somewhere*else* ... Never again ...
Galilit For what it's worth ... you'd be surprised what a rich and enriching life full of meaning and significance you might live in Israel.
... and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8. I can aspire to that wherever I am; and to my last breath
Where do you want to go with this?
Your invitation to live a full life in Israel might raise the question as to how I can realise that living in a house on property that was stolen from someone else and pursue the injunction of Micah's God.
A major part of the problem is that a great historical injustice has been done to the Palestinians which continues to get worse, and the aggrieved party grows in numbers and organised resentment. It is an injustice that cannot be rectified, a least without unacceptable pain and suffering.
1. Woe to those who plan iniquity,
to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning’s light they carry it out
because it is in their power to do it.
2 They covet fields and seize them,
and houses, and take them.
They defraud people of their homes,
they rob them of their inheritance.
3 Therefore, the Lord says:
“I am planning disaster against this people,
from which you cannot save yourselves.
"How could we sing the LORD's song in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand wither!
Let my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy."
-- Psalm 137: 4-6
ISTM, Fr Teilhard, your intense pro-Israel partisanship spoils your case because it leads you to justify its activities on indefensible grounds, namely that it is a liberal democracy. The problem is that its unresolved relationship with the Palestinians, which has been unprofitably discussed ad nauseam, makes that impossible. The defence of Israel's actions is that its policy options are less a matter of choice than the product of its history, raison d'être, and strategic position. The liberal democratic solution would probably involve the re-creation of Palestine on a one person one vote basis, but that would destroy the concept of a homeland for the Jews. Like any other state Israel does what it does to survive and to expect it to behave differently is unreasonable. If anyone wishes it to behave differently it must be proved to its citizens that is where its best interests lie. All this moralism etc. is beside the point. For what it's worth, I'm just glad I don't live in the Middle East, Israel included.
No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
It is not myself that is quoting random verses, as you suggest, but yourself, Fr Teilhard. You will note that the quotation I was using was from the same source used by Gulilit. The call of Micah to "do justice and love mercy" implies the rectification of the injustices referred to earlier in his prophecy. Your reference to a psalm composed during the exile is completely out of context. If you would wish to challenge my interpretation of Micah feel free so to do.
Fr Teilhard: No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
That doesn't come through in the passionate tone of your contributions, but I take your word for it.
It is not myself that is quoting random verses, as you suggest, but yourself, Fr Teilhard. You will note that the quotation I was using was from the same source used by Gulilit. The call of Micah to "do justice and love mercy" implies the rectification of the injustices referred to earlier in his prophecy. Your reference to a psalm composed during the exile is completely out of context. If you would wish to challenge my interpretation of Micah feel free so to do.
Fr Teilhard: No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
That doesn't come through in the passionate tone of your contributions, but I take your word for it.
I agree with "the Jews" re: NEVER AGAIN ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of The Jewish State of Israel instead ... *shrug* ...
I'd be a bit more convinced if any attempt was shown at understanding the Palestinians.
I understand that the Palestinian people have legitimate interests -- and deep grievances ...
But the facts on the ground are that the Jewish State of Israel is not gong to negotiate itself out of existence ...
Yes, the Palestinian People COULD have had a state of their own, but going back to 1948 (1) didn't WANT one and (2) the West Bank was invaded and annexed by Jordan ...
I simply reject the ancient calumny that "the Jews" (A) are a source of trouble any/everywhere they are (B) and therefore are (should be) doomed to be evermore a wandering people living (if settled anywhere) as a minority in any society or country ...
It is not myself that is quoting random verses, as you suggest, but yourself, Fr Teilhard. You will note that the quotation I was using was from the same source used by Gulilit. The call of Micah to "do justice and love mercy" implies the rectification of the injustices referred to earlier in his prophecy. Your reference to a psalm composed during the exile is completely out of context. If you would wish to challenge my interpretation of Micah feel free so to do.
Fr Teilhard: No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
That doesn't come through in the passionate tone of your contributions, but I take your word for it.
I agree with "the Jews" re: NEVER AGAIN ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of The Jewish State of Israel instead ... *shrug* ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of the Jewish State of Israel are non-zionist Jews. But your cutesy plausible-denial ad hominem is noted.
It is not myself that is quoting random verses, as you suggest, but yourself, Fr Teilhard. You will note that the quotation I was using was from the same source used by Gulilit. The call of Micah to "do justice and love mercy" implies the rectification of the injustices referred to earlier in his prophecy. Your reference to a psalm composed during the exile is completely out of context. If you would wish to challenge my interpretation of Micah feel free so to do.
Fr Teilhard: No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
That doesn't come through in the passionate tone of your contributions, but I take your word for it.
I agree with "the Jews" re: NEVER AGAIN ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of The Jewish State of Israel instead ... *shrug* ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of the Jewish State of Israel are non-zionist Jews. But your cutesy plausible-denial ad hominem is noted.
Yes, there are even Jewish citizens of the State of Israel who are critical of their own government ... So what ... ???
But, no ... THE most vocal critics of the existence of the Jewish State of Israel are Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like ... who do not differentiate between "Zionist" and "non-Zionist" Jews ...
Ask the relatives of (the late) Leon Klinghoffer about that ...
Ask the relatives of IDF soldiers killed in 1967 and 1973 ... (hint: the armies arrayed against Israel did not consist of "non-Zionist Jews" ...
The question of specific policies and actions by the government of the Jewish State of Israel is a different matter than the existence of the Jewish State of Israel ...
Lest we forget, one of The Third Reich's considered plans was to send European Jews into Exile on Madagascar -- "Alle Juden 'RAUS ... !!!"
Telling "the Jews" where *they* can or cannot BE is an old habit in Western "civilization" ...
One of good friends -- fellow clergy, Ph.D full professor -- once solemnly informed me that "The Jews bring problems on themselves because they don't assimilate ..." (IOW, "the Jews" have problems BECAUSE the ARE "Jewish" ... Elie Wiesel described it this way, re: The Holocaust ... "The unforgivable sin of The Jews was that they EXIST ...") ... My Rev. Prof. Dr. friend went on to suggest that maybe The Jewish Homeland could be "somewhere in Nevada" ... ("Next year in Tonopah ...") ...
I was wondering that, too. IMHO, it comes across very badly...but, given Fr Teilhard's passionate defense of both Jewish persons and Israel, I *think* he's being dismissive and sarcastic about the way some people disrespect and dismiss the entire Jewish people as some kind of unpleasant lump.
For me, it makes his posts very hard to read, because it's a usage that IME is normally limited to people who hate or severely dislike Jews.
It (in its various forms) also makes it hard to even look at his posts, because they bounce in and out of quote marks all the time.
{Kind H/As: please delete the draft version of this, just above. Accidentally posted it, and missed the edit window. The post below replaces it. Many thx.} Your wish is, in this case at least, my command. BroJames, Purgatory Host
Another complication is that many Ultra-Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist (Duck Duck Go). At least part of it is that "Zion" can't/shouldn't exist until the Messiah comes. Some of them even pray for Israel's destruction. There are various views, so I just gave you the list of results.
I'm a Gentile, a Christian, and in the US. So my opinion may be worth about 1/100th of what you're paying for it. But *all* of anything to do with Israel is complicated, no matter who is involved.
I want Jews to be safe. I want Palestinians to be safe. I want Druze, Yazedis, Zoroastrians, Muslims, and everyone else to be safe. I don't know how that can/should be done. I care enough that sometimes I want to (metaphorically) smash heads together to get all the mess and pain to stop.
Jewish Israelis have obvious reasons for having a safe place of their own. Palestinians may have different history, but they want a safe place of their own, too. If there's ever a non-violent way to fulfill that for both peoples at the same time...
Until then, it might be wise to remember that they're *all* people, trying to get through this world. FWIW.
Golden Key: I want Jews to be safe. I want Palestinians to be safe. I want Druze, Yazedis, Zoroastrians, Muslims, and everyone else to be safe. I don't know how that can/should be done.
So do I. Arguably the minorities were at their safest under the Ottomans and the British Mandate, because they recognised (for the most part) the existence of different ethnic groups and granted them their own spaces, though politically restricted. The difficulty in the Middle East seems to be combining democracy with ethnic pluralism.
Again with the "if you disagree with the actions of the State of Israel, you are a Nazi or worse." It's tiring. Cool it.
The base issue is not any particular actions of The State of Israel ... as if a few policies could be tweaked here*and*there and everybody everywhere will be happy ... What is at stake is the E-X-I-S-T-E-N-C-E of The Jewish State of Israel ...
{Kind H/As: please delete the draft version of this, just above. Accidentally posted it, and missed the edit window. The post below replaces it. Many thx.} Your wish is, in this case at least, my command. BroJames, Purgatory Host
I'm a Gentile, a Christian, and in the US. So my opinion may be worth about 1/100th of what you're paying for it. But *all* of anything to do with Israel is complicated, no matter who is involved.
I want Jews to be safe. I want Palestinians to be safe. I want Druze, Yazedis, Zoroastrians, Muslims, and everyone else to be safe. I don't know how that can/should be done. I care enough that sometimes I want to (metaphorically) smash heads together to get all the mess and pain to stop.
Jewish Israelis have obvious reasons for having a safe place of their own. Palestinians may have different history, but they want a safe place of their own, too. If there's ever a non-violent way to fulfill that for both peoples at the same time...
Until then, it might be wise to remember that they're *all* people, trying to get through this world. FWIW.
Yes ... Exactly ...
This isn't about national policies ... It's about "people,"
in fact an ENTIRE People, in particular The People of Israel
and their very real ongoing existential peril ...
--Respectfully: Throughout this thread, you sound more and more like you think that a) other Shipmates on the thread want Jews destroyed; and b) you'rethe only person on the Ship (and possibly the only person in the world) who *really* cares about Jews.
Wrong on both counts. And your style of posts doesn't do Jewish persons any favors, because just about everything you've said on this thread is IMHO designed to be annoying--and that spills over onto the very people you're trying to protect and defend, and makes them an annoying topic. Not, perhaps, the wisest tactic.
--As to who is a real Jew, perhaps we can let *Jews* figure that out? I understand it's controversial.
--The beginning of my post that you quoted links to info on Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist attitudes. Might be worth a look.
--Respectfully: Throughout this thread, you sound more and more like you think that a) other Shipmates on the thread want Jews destroyed; and b) you'rethe only person on the Ship (and possibly the only person in the world) who *really* cares about Jews.
Wrong on both counts. And your style of posts doesn't do Jewish persons any favors, because just about everything you've said on this thread is IMHO designed to be annoying--and that spills over onto the very people you're trying to protect and defend, and makes them an annoying topic. Not, perhaps, the wisest tactic.
--As to who is a real Jew, perhaps we can let *Jews* figure that out? I understand it's controversial.
--The beginning of my post that you quoted links to info on Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist attitudes. Might be worth a look.
Since the Partition in 1948, The Jewish State of Israel has been surrounded by hostile neighbor states ... and several times has been subjected to concerted military attack from all directions ...
Those attacks were not launched by "ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist" Jews ... The 1948 Palestinian State (the West Bank) was invaded and annexed by Jordan ...
As to who is or is not a REAL Jew, for sure that is for The People of Israel (the Jews) to decide for themselves, not me or anyone else, as I have indicated several times above ...
The security of Israel is now a fact on the ground, probably since 1967. Israel is not going to be pushed into the Mediterranean. One of the barriers to peace on the Arab side is the reluctance to acknowledge that, with a few very significant exceptions and a couple of small states as a result of the Saudi/Israel detente.
Israel's security is certainly threatened in the sense that its citizens are under daily threat of attack, and that threat is not going to be reduced unless it can make peace with the Palestinians and that peace holds for a good long while. If Israel wants security in that sense, peace is the only solution.
Comments
LOL ... I certainly did not compare Israel and Saudi Arabia favorably ... But I note that Israel's most vocal critics are not so vocal about Saudi ...
Points well taken ...
In the meantime, the Jewish State of Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existence ... Pack a suitcase and obediently meekly report to the rail station for transportation *somewhere*else* ... ??? ... No ... Never again ..
The volume of criticism tends to rise not just in line with the severity of the offence but with the vociferousness of the defence. Virtually nobody I can think of would defend Saudi Arabia's many crimes, nor the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but when it comes to Israel not only can you not move for apologists but crticising Israel makes you a target for accusations of anti-semitism.
Unfortunately all around, a great deal of the most severe criticism of the Jewish Stat of Israel has a great deal to do with general anti-"Jewish" ideas ... One of my own sweetly pious relatives some years ago was shaking her head and mumbling, "Those Jews ... !!! ...causing trouble again ... !!!" when The Israelis rose up to defend themselves against yet another terror attack ... And, again, I note that a lot of the critique of The State of Israel in this very forum has to do with the "Jew-ish-ness" of The State of Israel ...
The Jewishness of the state is a problem because it excludes most of the native population. It's the Church of Ireland problem writ large.
And generally Israel doesn't defend itself. At best it retaliates; more commonly it provokes.
The "Jews" *provoke* by their EXISTENCE, as per 1933-45 ...
But, yes *they* do defend themselves -- 1967 ... 1973 ... and other times ...
The Good Old Days of "Jews" meekly accepting pogroms and relocations are OVER ...
Never again ...
Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a liberal democracy.
No indeed ... The Jewish State of Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East ...
No indeed. They are committed to an anti-democratic end.
For sure ... ALL of Israel's neighbors are non-democratic ill-liberal societies, some worse than others ... Ironically, Muslims, Arabs, Christians and other gentiles fare much better in Israel than in say, Syria or Iran or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria or ...
Micah 6:8. I can aspire to that wherever I am; and to my last breath
If things are so good for non Jews in Israel, then why doesn't Israel let the Palestinian refugees return home?
That is to say, I don't think much of the argument that because it is the only such democracy in the Middle East it is to get all of the respect due to the ideals and none of the responsibilities for living up to them.
I think that's one of the best verses in the scriptures. Gets down to the most important stuff, and doesn't focus on holding particular beliefs.
Where do you want to go with this?
Your invitation to live a full life in Israel might raise the question as to how I can realise that living in a house on property that was stolen from someone else and pursue the injunction of Micah's God.
A major part of the problem is that a great historical injustice has been done to the Palestinians which continues to get worse, and the aggrieved party grows in numbers and organised resentment. It is an injustice that cannot be rectified, a least without unacceptable pain and suffering.
Can I remind you, Galilit, of Micah Chapter 2:
As far as I can see we ALL OF US live in complicated political circumstances. I do get somewhat tired of how clever people can be from so far away sometimes. Even when I agree with them.
I have stood up for things and people and I have stood up against things and people in all the countries I have lived in. And will continue to do so. I have found things to act upon everywhere.
Call it small or only personal or pointless if you like; and indeed I am neither Mother Teresa nor Joan of Arc ... but I am doing what I can in my Home and I would like people to know that in Israel (like everywhere) there are people who, despite the structural sin under which they freely acknowledge they are living, are Doing Their Best in all kinds of ways to help, to confront, and to change
By the way, are you telling me I should leave our home just because of a government and having a minority opinion? And if so where would you suggest we go? (And don't say Aotearoa~New Zealand. I was born there and I know all its dirty little secrets)
To be clear, I don't know of any country or nation that is a 100% PERFECT liberal Democracy, including the USA, the UK, et al. ... Neither do I know of any nation or country or people that has the amazing -- and tenuous -- history of The People/State of Israel ...
Their situation is unique ... It is easy for us in the West to claim all manner of moral high ground over Israel ... But we do not face -- have never faced -- the genuine Existential peril of the People of Israel and the Jewish State of Israel ... century after century, decade after decade ...
Again, the fact is that the Jewish State of Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existence, meekly pack a few suitcases and report to the rail station for transport *somewhere*else* ... Never again ...
"How could we sing the LORD's song in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand wither!
Let my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy."
-- Psalm 137: 4-6
Go ahead, quote verses ...
LOL ... No ... The People of Israel "keep bringing up" the necessity of the Jewish-ness" of The State of Israel ...
No, I don't "justify" all of the actions of the Israelis ... I simply understand them ...
It is not myself that is quoting random verses, as you suggest, but yourself, Fr Teilhard. You will note that the quotation I was using was from the same source used by Gulilit. The call of Micah to "do justice and love mercy" implies the rectification of the injustices referred to earlier in his prophecy. Your reference to a psalm composed during the exile is completely out of context. If you would wish to challenge my interpretation of Micah feel free so to do.
That doesn't come through in the passionate tone of your contributions, but I take your word for it.
I agree with "the Jews" re: NEVER AGAIN ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of The Jewish State of Israel instead ... *shrug* ...
I understand that the Palestinian people have legitimate interests -- and deep grievances ...
But the facts on the ground are that the Jewish State of Israel is not gong to negotiate itself out of existence ...
Yes, the Palestinian People COULD have had a state of their own, but going back to 1948 (1) didn't WANT one and (2) the West Bank was invaded and annexed by Jordan ...
I simply reject the ancient calumny that "the Jews" (A) are a source of trouble any/everywhere they are (B) and therefore are (should be) doomed to be evermore a wandering people living (if settled anywhere) as a minority in any society or country ...
Thank you for offering a practical ("Final" ... ???) Solution ...
The most vocal critics of the existence of the Jewish State of Israel are non-zionist Jews. But your cutesy plausible-denial ad hominem is noted.
So sick.
Yes ... Calls for the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel are *sick* ...
Yes, there are even Jewish citizens of the State of Israel who are critical of their own government ... So what ... ???
But, no ... THE most vocal critics of the existence of the Jewish State of Israel are Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like ... who do not differentiate between "Zionist" and "non-Zionist" Jews ...
Ask the relatives of (the late) Leon Klinghoffer about that ...
Ask the relatives of IDF soldiers killed in 1967 and 1973 ... (hint: the armies arrayed against Israel did not consist of "non-Zionist Jews" ...
The question of specific policies and actions by the government of the Jewish State of Israel is a different matter than the existence of the Jewish State of Israel ...
Telling "the Jews" where *they* can or cannot BE is an old habit in Western "civilization" ...
One of good friends -- fellow clergy, Ph.D full professor -- once solemnly informed me that "The Jews bring problems on themselves because they don't assimilate ..." (IOW, "the Jews" have problems BECAUSE the ARE "Jewish" ... Elie Wiesel described it this way, re: The Holocaust ... "The unforgivable sin of The Jews was that they EXIST ...") ... My Rev. Prof. Dr. friend went on to suggest that maybe The Jewish Homeland could be "somewhere in Nevada" ... ("Next year in Tonopah ...") ...
I was wondering that, too. IMHO, it comes across very badly...but, given Fr Teilhard's passionate defense of both Jewish persons and Israel, I *think* he's being dismissive and sarcastic about the way some people disrespect and dismiss the entire Jewish people as some kind of unpleasant lump.
For me, it makes his posts very hard to read, because it's a usage that IME is normally limited to people who hate or severely dislike Jews.
It (in its various forms) also makes it hard to even look at his posts, because they bounce in and out of quote marks all the time.
Indeed. There are so many strawmen in this thread it's becoming a fire hazard.
Your wish is, in this case at least, my command. BroJames, Purgatory Host
Another complication is that many Ultra-Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist (Duck Duck Go). At least part of it is that "Zion" can't/shouldn't exist until the Messiah comes. Some of them even pray for Israel's destruction. There are various views, so I just gave you the list of results.
I'm a Gentile, a Christian, and in the US. So my opinion may be worth about 1/100th of what you're paying for it. But *all* of anything to do with Israel is complicated, no matter who is involved.
I want Jews to be safe. I want Palestinians to be safe. I want Druze, Yazedis, Zoroastrians, Muslims, and everyone else to be safe. I don't know how that can/should be done. I care enough that sometimes I want to (metaphorically) smash heads together to get all the mess and pain to stop.
Jewish Israelis have obvious reasons for having a safe place of their own. Palestinians may have different history, but they want a safe place of their own, too. If there's ever a non-violent way to fulfill that for both peoples at the same time...
Until then, it might be wise to remember that they're *all* people, trying to get through this world. FWIW.
So do I. Arguably the minorities were at their safest under the Ottomans and the British Mandate, because they recognised (for the most part) the existence of different ethnic groups and granted them their own spaces, though politically restricted. The difficulty in the Middle East seems to be combining democracy with ethnic pluralism.
Tidings of Comfort and Joy to you all!
Because it isn't clear who is or is not a REAL Jew ...
The base issue is not any particular actions of The State of Israel ... as if a few policies could be tweaked here*and*there and everybody everywhere will be happy ... What is at stake is the E-X-I-S-T-E-N-C-E of The Jewish State of Israel ...
Then I think you will have to write "the Christian" because it's not clear who is or isn't.
Yes ... Exactly ...
This isn't about national policies ... It's about "people,"
in fact an ENTIRE People, in particular The People of Israel
and their very real ongoing existential peril ...
--Respectfully: Throughout this thread, you sound more and more like you think that a) other Shipmates on the thread want Jews destroyed; and b) you're the only person on the Ship (and possibly the only person in the world) who *really* cares about Jews.
Wrong on both counts. And your style of posts doesn't do Jewish persons any favors, because just about everything you've said on this thread is IMHO designed to be annoying--and that spills over onto the very people you're trying to protect and defend, and makes them an annoying topic. Not, perhaps, the wisest tactic.
--As to who is a real Jew, perhaps we can let *Jews* figure that out? I understand it's controversial.
--The beginning of my post that you quoted links to info on Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist attitudes. Might be worth a look.
Since the Partition in 1948, The Jewish State of Israel has been surrounded by hostile neighbor states ... and several times has been subjected to concerted military attack from all directions ...
Those attacks were not launched by "ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist" Jews ... The 1948 Palestinian State (the West Bank) was invaded and annexed by Jordan ...
As to who is or is not a REAL Jew, for sure that is for The People of Israel (the Jews) to decide for themselves, not me or anyone else, as I have indicated several times above ...
Israel's security is certainly threatened in the sense that its citizens are under daily threat of attack, and that threat is not going to be reduced unless it can make peace with the Palestinians and that peace holds for a good long while. If Israel wants security in that sense, peace is the only solution.