O well. Something else to add to our list of *world-beating* stuff...and the French ban on much of the usual cross-Sleeve lorry traffic is bound to add to the chaos that is Yuletide this year...
Marginally better than no deal. Sure. Far worse than what we gave up when the UK Parliament defied democracy in March 2017 by approving leaving the EU before the people had had a chance to vote on the detailed policy of the government as to what they would seek.
Marginally better than no deal. Sure. Far worse than what we gave up when the UK Parliament defied democracy in March 2017 by approving leaving the EU before the people had had a chance to vote on the detailed policy of the government as to what they would seek.
The people had been asked in 2016 and a verdict had been delivered. It was then a matter for Parliament to sort it out
The 2016 public vote was, at best, advisory. It was up to Parliament and the Government to take that advice and see if there was a viable route to leave the EU ... if there was no such route then there would be no Brexit. That was the work of Parliament from June 2016 ... I see very little evidence of that being done. The closest we got was a series of votes that ruled out a 'no deal' which the government ignored by leaving that on the table. Where were the committees that examined the evidence and took the advice of experts on whether we should leave or remain in the Single Market? Or, what would be best for different industries? Whether we need EU migrants, how the UK and EU would coordinate security issues? The work that would lead to a comprehensive Bill to put before Parliament that would define the deal the government would seek to obtain, something which could then put to the people to confirm (assuming Parliament supported the Bill)? There was none of this ... Parliament didn't sort anything out. Democracy had no say.
Now, we need another general election and start the process of electing MPs from parties who would support rejoining the EU - a step that the anti-EU groups never achieved, never more than a couple of MPs elected. How we got the point where MPs elected on manifestoes of the UK being a strong member of the EU managed to vote against the wishes of their constituents expressed just two years earlier to be a European nation.
The 2016 public vote was, at best, advisory. It was up to Parliament and the Government to take that advice and see if there was a viable route to leave the EU ...
There was a viable route....Triggering article 50. Approved by both major parties.
The 2016 public vote was, at best, advisory. It was up to Parliament and the Government to take that advice and see if there was a viable route to leave the EU ...
There was a viable route....Triggering article 50. Approved by both major parties.
... on the assumption that those in government had some kind of credible plan that didn't involve sabotaging our most important trading relationship.
The 2016 public vote was, at best, advisory. It was up to Parliament and the Government to take that advice and see if there was a viable route to leave the EU ...
There was a viable route....Triggering article 50. Approved by both major parties.
No, that was the start. It didn't lay out the route.
Imagine going for a long journey. Just because you've started the car doesn't mean you've set out a route for where you are going. What we had was the government in 2017 starting the bus and taking a series of random turns, and then spending a long time discussing where they want to go as they kept on driving. I'm still not sure they ever decided on a destination, rather than simply stopping somewhere that didn't look too bad and saying "you have reached your destination".
Just as the British Prime Minister ceded whatever was necessary to steam his way into Number 10, it now seems clear he's done much of the same to get his Brexit trade deal and his tabloid applause.
Just as the British Prime Minister ceded whatever was necessary to steam his way into Number 10, it now seems clear he's done much of the same to get his Brexit trade deal and his tabloid applause.
Which is what most of us expected to be the outcome.
Just as the British Prime Minister ceded whatever was necessary to steam his way into Number 10, it now seems clear he's done much of the same to get his Brexit trade deal and his tabloid applause.
Which is what most of us expected to be the outcome.
Most of you always claimed that this government wanted No Deal. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
It's possible that the government wanted a no-deal Brexit but recognised that that would be political suicide*, with a possible get out if it could be unambiguously claimed to be the fault of the EU. The next best compromise is a deal that's as hard as they could manage without it being WTO no-deal.
*Because they had promised a deal ... even one that was clearly not oven ready last year. Though Tory promises aren't made to be kept.
As is amply demonstrated by our resident supporters, all that is required to be a good Tory is to be unstinting in your worship of power. No principle, no thought, nothing is allowed to get in the way of their unfathomable need to prevent anyone else from touching the levers which they believe to be their birthright.
Some (not all) may have claimed that the *government* wanted No Deal.
That does not necessarily mean that those people expected it to happen.
My post was more accurate.
I disagree.
The most common view I believe was that Johnson would cave at the last minute and then call it a triumph. He hasn't quite caved, but he has definitely produced an area sheltered by natural rock.
Some (not all) may have claimed that the *government* wanted No Deal.
That does not necessarily mean that those people expected it to happen.
My post was more accurate.
I disagree.
The most common view I believe was that Johnson would cave at the last minute and then call it a triumph. He hasn't quite caved, but he has definitely produced an area sheltered by natural rock.
The most common view was that Johnson wanted No deal as it would benefit his rich chums.
The most common view was that Johnson wanted No deal as it would benefit his rich chums.
I can't be bothered to go back and count how many people said what so I can't be sure. Neither I suspect can you be bothered so you can't be sure either.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
There is no such thing as success when it comes to Brexit, only degrees of failure.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
Brexshiteers landed us in this shit. It's up to them to prove how it can become a bed of roses. Pointing and laughing is a valid choice for the rest of us, while this miracle is built.
In any case, this is hell. I'm not here to be constructive. Don't let the heat burst your piles.
Just as the British Prime Minister ceded whatever was necessary to steam his way into Number 10, it now seems clear he's done much of the same to get his Brexit trade deal and his tabloid applause.
Which is what most of us expected to be the outcome.
Most of you always claimed that this government wanted No Deal. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
I certainly believed that it would've suited Johnson - and his fellow campaigners - to have had a No Deal Brexit, should a deal not have been possible. I still think it wouldn't have bothered him that much. He (and his own family business interests and the business interest of many of his associates and donors etc) would still have been okay with a no deal if not actually rather better off. That Johnson has agreed a Deal suggests to me there's greater gain in that to him (politically or otherwise) than the No Deal, I still think he would've been quite content with. It certainly can't have been the 'oven-ready' deal he talked about.
Probably time alone will tell whether the UK is better off, or just set for a different experience of working with world markets outwith the experience and allied help of fellow European nations. I'm interested to note how satisfied the EU negotiators are at the result. That that satisfaction is somehow compatible with all the rhetoric of Johnson on this issue, up until even a few weeks ago, is a little difficult to reconcile! But if a deal makes the beginning of this year any easier for our poor businesses and economy, that's good.
I suspect that the EU negotiators (in particular Fr von der Leyen and M Barnier) are heartily glad to see the back of Frost and Johnson, and I can't say I blame them. After all, it's not they who are cutting off their noses to spite their faces...
Time will tell, of course, but I've still to learn of any actual or tangible benefit the whole shitshow has achieved - apart from Doc Tor's promise to close this thread next week...
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
There is no such thing as success when it comes to Brexit, only degrees of failure.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
C'est l'histoire d'un homme qui tombe d'un immeuble de 50 étages. Le mec, au fur et à mesure de sa chute, il se répète sans cesse pour se rassurer : " Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien... Jusqu'ici tout va bien. " Mais l'important, c'est pas la chute. C'est l'atterrissage.
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
There is no such thing as success when it comes to Brexit, only degrees of failure.
The good citizens of the United Kingdom of course. See Matthew 5.45.
You utter shitweazel. This crap is on you and your fellows. Own it. Deal with it. It's yours and yours alone. You've thrown it over the rest of us and sat down. That is simply not forgiveable.
There are no benefits. The only question is whether the relative decline in the economy will be tolerable or not. That very much depends on the economic situation of the individual. Millionaires will still feel quite comfortable. Those going to food banks will find out it is actually possible for them to be worse off. Many in the middle will tut at some increased prices, but not necessarily make the connection.
The UK is now like the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1914. Puffed up with delusions of its own importance, but fractured and likely to fall apart at the first significant shock. Burdened with outdated institutions and led by people blind to the realities of the time. But with nice uniforms and decorations that still impress the multitude. For now.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
Who is this 'we'? You're not going to do any of the work to make Brexit anything. You're retired. You've dumped this mess on everyone else to sort out.
Yours is the sort of attitude that we do not need if Brexit is not to be a disaster. In order to stop this mess from becoming a disaster we need to have our eyes open and accept that Brexit is not going to be a success.
If what I have seen / heard online is true - that N Ireland is remaining in the single market (so there will be a regulatory border down the Irish Sea). Then there will be a United Ireland or a resurgence of the civil conflict there within the next 25 years.
I suspect Brexit will result in the end of the United Kingdom in my lifetime, possibly England & Wales will remain as a rump state.
There is an outside chance that the deal may still not pass if the threat to the union upsets enough MPs. In many ways it is a more fundamental issue of constitutional sovereignty than the whole EU issue.
Comments
I was right:
https://theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/20/uk-faces-brexit-limbo-after-talks-deadline-missed
O well. Something else to add to our list of *world-beating* stuff...and the French ban on much of the usual cross-Sleeve lorry traffic is bound to add to the chaos that is Yuletide this year...
Something which this government was striving for?
What was that all about ?
He doesn't seem to have noticed that it isn't *England* that has come off best...
Still, it may well be that Deal is marginally better than No-Deal (which might indeed have been a bluff).
The people had been asked in 2016 and a verdict had been delivered. It was then a matter for Parliament to sort it out
Now, we need another general election and start the process of electing MPs from parties who would support rejoining the EU - a step that the anti-EU groups never achieved, never more than a couple of MPs elected. How we got the point where MPs elected on manifestoes of the UK being a strong member of the EU managed to vote against the wishes of their constituents expressed just two years earlier to be a European nation.
There was a viable route....Triggering article 50. Approved by both major parties.
... on the assumption that those in government had some kind of credible plan that didn't involve sabotaging our most important trading relationship.
No, that was the start. It didn't lay out the route.
Imagine going for a long journey. Just because you've started the car doesn't mean you've set out a route for where you are going. What we had was the government in 2017 starting the bus and taking a series of random turns, and then spending a long time discussing where they want to go as they kept on driving. I'm still not sure they ever decided on a destination, rather than simply stopping somewhere that didn't look too bad and saying "you have reached your destination".
Just as the British Prime Minister ceded whatever was necessary to steam his way into Number 10, it now seems clear he's done much of the same to get his Brexit trade deal and his tabloid applause.
Which is what most of us expected to be the outcome.
Most of you always claimed that this government wanted No Deal. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
That does not necessarily mean that those people expected it to happen.
No sign of my Unicorn yet...
*Because they had promised a deal ... even one that was clearly not oven ready last year. Though Tory promises aren't made to be kept.
Behold the one tangible benefit of the Deal! We shall be rid at last of Pooping Pigeons and Pusillanimous Pot-Plants...
My post was more accurate.
The most common view I believe was that Johnson would cave at the last minute and then call it a triumph. He hasn't quite caved, but he has definitely produced an area sheltered by natural rock.
The most common view was that Johnson wanted No deal as it would benefit his rich chums.
Stating this without identifying exactly what they were asked is exactly the lack of rigour I'd expect.
What the people were asked about actually happened back at the end of January. "Do we jump?" they were asked. "Yes", the people cried and so the UK duly took a running leap off the top of a tall building.
What's happening now is an attempt to make the landing less painful.
You do need to state the obvious, because the deal apparently just negotiated was not about that question.
This reminds me of the famous French film La Haine:
(It's the story of a man who falls from a fifty floor building. All the way down, the guy keeps on reassuring himself by repeating, "So far so good... So far so good... So far so good. " But it's not the fall that matters. It's the landing.)
That's what I have been trying to remember all along. I remember watching La Haine when it came out and this has been in the back of my mind all the way through the Brexshitstorm, which is now only just beginning.
Congratulations to my fellow citizens on their lack of basic intelligence and imagination.
(If you mean that you're hopeful of BJ admitting errors, I think you need to go and groom the mane of your Unicorn
I was, of course, on about the 2016 referendum.
This is the sort of attitude tjhat we do not need if we are to make a success of btexit.
There is no such thing as success when it comes to Brexit, only degrees of failure.
Brexshiteers landed us in this shit. It's up to them to prove how it can become a bed of roses. Pointing and laughing is a valid choice for the rest of us, while this miracle is built.
In any case, this is hell. I'm not here to be constructive. Don't let the heat burst your piles.
Let the Brexshiteers understand (if they are capable...which I doubt).
I certainly believed that it would've suited Johnson - and his fellow campaigners - to have had a No Deal Brexit, should a deal not have been possible. I still think it wouldn't have bothered him that much. He (and his own family business interests and the business interest of many of his associates and donors etc) would still have been okay with a no deal if not actually rather better off. That Johnson has agreed a Deal suggests to me there's greater gain in that to him (politically or otherwise) than the No Deal, I still think he would've been quite content with. It certainly can't have been the 'oven-ready' deal he talked about.
Probably time alone will tell whether the UK is better off, or just set for a different experience of working with world markets outwith the experience and allied help of fellow European nations. I'm interested to note how satisfied the EU negotiators are at the result. That that satisfaction is somehow compatible with all the rhetoric of Johnson on this issue, up until even a few weeks ago, is a little difficult to reconcile! But if a deal makes the beginning of this year any easier for our poor businesses and economy, that's good.
I suspect that the EU negotiators (in particular Fr von der Leyen and M Barnier) are heartily glad to see the back of Frost and Johnson, and I can't say I blame them. After all, it's not they who are cutting off their noses to spite their faces...
Time will tell, of course, but I've still to learn of any actual or tangible benefit the whole shitshow has achieved - apart from Doc Tor's promise to close this thread next week...
I refer you to my previous comment
The good citizens of the United Kingdom of course. See Matthew 5.45.
The UK is now like the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1914. Puffed up with delusions of its own importance, but fractured and likely to fall apart at the first significant shock. Burdened with outdated institutions and led by people blind to the realities of the time. But with nice uniforms and decorations that still impress the multitude. For now.
Yours is the sort of attitude that we do not need if Brexit is not to be a disaster. In order to stop this mess from becoming a disaster we need to have our eyes open and accept that Brexit is not going to be a success.
I suspect Brexit will result in the end of the United Kingdom in my lifetime, possibly England & Wales will remain as a rump state.
There is an outside chance that the deal may still not pass if the threat to the union upsets enough MPs. In many ways it is a more fundamental issue of constitutional sovereignty than the whole EU issue.