Break Glass - 2020 USA Elections

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  • Ruth wrote: »
    Seriously. It was shocking. It continues to be shocking. If you didn't see guns, you weren't looking at the right photos. And I can guarantee you, even if I hadn't seen the photos, there were guns. Lots of them.

    Well of course there were guns - probably still are - because it's the USA and in the past few days it was reported that the Proud Boys were being urged to take their weapons to Washington.

    The woman who was shot was a protester; it is unclear who shot her, no doubt there'll be an investigation.

    And still when the Session resumed a Republican Senator continued to object to the certification of the vote, and was applauded for doing it by many of his fellow senators.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    No matter who the woman was, I feel for her family, and pray for them.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    No matter who the woman was, I feel for her family, and pray for them.

    Amen ...
    Guns, guns, guns and ammo in America ... Oh, goody ...
  • There are mass resignations from the White House. So far 3 have gone:
    - Social Secretary Richie Niceta
    - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews
    - CoS to the First Lady Stephanie Grisham

    There are rumours more, higher up the food chain, may follow.
  • There are mass resignations from the White House. So far 3 have gone:
    - Social Secretary Richie Niceta
    - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews
    - CoS to the First Lady Stephanie Grisham

    There are rumours more, higher up the food chain, may follow.

    rats deserting a sinking ship
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    There are mass resignations from the White House. So far 3 have gone:
    - Social Secretary Richie Niceta
    - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews
    - CoS to the First Lady Stephanie Grisham

    There are rumours more, higher up the food chain, may follow.

    It took an attempted coup for them to decide they don't want to work for Trump. Fuck them.
  • TukaiTukai Shipmate
    The USA has long projected itself abroad as the model of democracy, that others ought to follow -or else!
    But few have been fooled in recent years, as the USA politicians are far more in thrall to their political donors (notably the armaments industry and the NRA) than they are to the wishes of the voters. And in any case those who (in most elections) actually vote are only 50-60% of those who are registered, and the registration process as a matter of deliberate policy excludes many of those to whom the "Voting Rights Act" supposedly gave the right to vote - not to mention the warped distribution of electorates as controlled by biassed state governments.
    So, with T--p spending most of his remaining free time encouraging his gunslinging supporters, I am not hugely surprised by the riots inside the Capitol today.

    The Foreign Minister of Venezuela reacted with gleeful schadenfreude: “With this pitiful episode, the US is suffering exactly what it has caused in other countries with its aggressive policies”.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Apologies, missed that, I note Nicola Sturgeon got there first as usual, shortly followed by Starmer and then he noticed.

    I'm no fan of the Prime Minister, but I'm also not a particular fan of speed of response as a metric for anything in these kinds of cases. Johnson beat Micheál Martin to the keyboard by 10 minutes, but I don't think that implies anything about the relative competence of the Prime Minister and an Taoiseach.

    And nothing that a British politician says is likely to sway public opinion in the US either way.

    "Oh, I was all fired up in support of the mob storming the Capitol, but then I heard what Nicola Sturgeon in Soctland had to say".


    Said no resident of Peoria ever.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited January 7
    Penny S wrote: »
    Before the report of the ieds, I was going to comment on the non-barking dogs around in the footage. By comparison with, for example, our Poll tax demos. The people's flags were on poles which mostly were too flimsy to be used as weapons (I saw one as thick as a broom handle). No-one tried to pull down and use the scaffold poles as weapons. And, given that this is the States, and not Trafalgar Square, I didn't see any of the Trumpists with guns.
    The whole thing was shocking, but it wasn't as shocking as it might have been.

    I kind of agree that by, by the standards of political riots, left AND right, the one in Washington was a little underwhelming. But one thing that I think does make a difference is that the protestors were actually trying to stop the rightful winner of an election from becoming president.

    And I think there's an additional political significance here in that the rioters' actions might serve to alienate a lot of moderate swing voters who have an inherent aversion to raucous street protest, but had been previously conditioned to associate that sort of thing with the left. (Though I also wouldn't be surprised if this is all forgotten by the next miderms.)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    The Hard-Hat Riots were an interesting example of right-wing street violence in the USA, which did not seem to significantly impact the popularity of the politicians(most notably Nixon) who winked at them.

    Though a difference might be that the hard-hats were attacking hippies, who a lot of people hated, whereas our Capitol Hill Rebels were attacking the seat of American democracy.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    There are mass resignations from the White House. So far 3 have gone:
    - Social Secretary Richie Niceta
    - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews
    - CoS to the First Lady Stephanie Grisham

    There are rumours more, higher up the food chain, may follow.

    rats deserting a sinking ship

    Leave him alone in the place and stop McDonalds from delivering.

  • I wandered over to the National Review (very conservative / Republican news and opinion magazine) to see what they had to say about Wednesday.

    I just skimmed the surface. But they're not happy campers--and they're placing the blame squarely on T.

    I wish Bill Buckley, their founder, was still around to write a scathing column.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Guns - I was comparing what I was seeing in the videos with the invasion in Michigan, where there were very obvious guns being swaggered with, and that couple with their guns aimed at BLM protestors.
    I want more information about the woman who was shot. That's got a very bad feel to it. You would think that by now some of the rioters would have released footage of the incident, even if the police or other defenders haven't.
    I wasn't saying it wasn't shocking, appalling and horrifying, but that it could have been a whole lot worse.
    News yesterday referred to similar protests in state capitals, but I haven't seen anything about that. My friend is of the opinion that the whole thing was very carefully planned, and Trump knows exactly what he is doing.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    And your clinical qualifications are what? He's you and me. Hitler wasn't - his mind went past its elastic limit due to his war injuries - and wasn't a psychopath either.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 7
    Telford wrote: »
    They've got Joe Biden, the upcoming president, saying that the storming of the USA capitol building and all of the angry mob is "not who we are". But is it true? Almost half of "who we are". I'm not sure, but do you think that having a polite person in charge is enough to fix up things? Don't think there's healing until the angry mob is through.

    Notwithstanding that there's wondering if the rioting and storming is finished.
    This mob is a very very tiny percentage of the population. Should be easily dealt with.

    This tiny % mob will be stalking the grounds of state capitols, statehouses and state houses with automatic weapons because of the intrinsic anti-democratic nature of the US constitution facilitating neo-fascism. Until the next ice age maximum allows them to move in.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Look at it this way:

    The Senate has turned Democrat.

    Biden’s election has been confirmed.

    The toady-in-chief has finally turned on the fartletter-in-chief.

    Even turtle-face deer-in-the-headlights-stare Mitch has begun to speak sense.

    As has the senator who looks like he washes his face in Botox.

    There’s serious talk of the 25th Amendment being invoked.

    It looks like Merrick Garland will be named Attorney General.

    They say that you-know-who’s twitter account has been temporarily locked.

    God works in mysterious ways. He has answered our prayers, but with a very heavy hand. In his wisdom he knew that only a very heavy hand applied to our most sacred of institutions would be enough to wake some people up. But it seems that the country is finally awake.

    We will recover. We will persevere. Great days are ahead. Thanks be to God.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited January 7
    Penny S wrote: »
    My friend is of the opinion that the whole thing was very carefully planned, and Trump knows exactly what he is doing.
    I can think of several ways on which the planning could apparently be improved, and the outcome seems to weaken him. If it's very carefully planned the plan is several stages more intricate than necessary: locking James Bond in a room with rising shark-infested waters rather than just shooting him first seems comparatively straightforward.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    My friend is of the opinion that the whole thing was very carefully planned, and Trump knows exactly what he is doing.
    I can think of several ways on which the planning could apparently be improved, and the outcome seems to weaken him. If it's very carefully planned the plan is several stages more intricate than necessary: locking James Bond in a room with rising shark-infested waters rather than just shooting him first seems comparatively straightforward.

    How can the outcome possibly weaken him? This has strengthened him. He's got more than clean away with it. He's turning democratic defeat in to fascist victory. He is utterly unstoppable. Watch him and his torchlit tooled up black shirt rallies, i.e. Republican party conventions.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    How can the outcome possibly weaken him? This has strengthened him. He's got more than clean away with it. He's turning democratic defeat in to fascist victory. He is utterly unstoppable. Watch him and his torchlit tooled up black shirt rallies, i.e. Republican party conventions.

    Looking at it from his point of view, he did what he needed to be able to continue to campaign after the 20th of January.

    As an aside; going to the YouGov poll: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErFsw1QXAAIlxkV?format=png&name=large

    I would suggest that the 56% bar at the bottom is the real worry long term, that's the percentage of all voters, not just Republican ones.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Exactly, he'll buy and intimidate his way back and he's blazed the trail for lying fascists. I feel sorry for decent Republicans in office. That's ONE U.S. senator, three U.S. representatives, four state senators, seven state representatives.
  • Look at it this way:

    The Senate has turned Democrat.

    Biden’s election has been confirmed.

    The toady-in-chief has finally turned on the fartletter-in-chief.

    Even turtle-face deer-in-the-headlights-stare Mitch has begun to speak sense.

    As has the senator who looks like he washes his face in Botox.

    There’s serious talk of the 25th Amendment being invoked.

    It looks like Merrick Garland will be named Attorney General.

    They say that you-know-who’s twitter account has been temporarily locked.

    God works in mysterious ways. He has answered our prayers, but with a very heavy hand. In his wisdom he knew that only a very heavy hand applied to our most sacred of institutions would be enough to wake some people up. But it seems that the country is finally awake.

    We will recover. We will persevere. Great days are ahead. Thanks be to God.

    How do you see God involved at all? I see no hand in this at all. The flood of white terrorists flooded the country which went bananas years ago while children are still in cages. It's been said elsewhere that had the terrorists been brown and black God would have ordained a bloodbath. It's very nice that it's quiet just now. So you really think these people are done? trumpy being all go home but I'm still mad as hell and you better not let up. God involved would involve some serious smiting, I'd prefer on live TV with a 'you're fired' voice coming from the clouds. Brimstone and flaming angels. That sort of thing.
  • Apart from the bits about God (which I agree are perhaps debatable), I think Miss Amanda has come up with something of a positive spin.
  • God knew that only a very heavy hand would wake people up? How about 9/11?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    This is not the Old Testament. Voices coming from the clouds, brimstone, and flaming angels are so B.C.

    People will think what they want. Unfortunately you-know-who is neither gone nor forgotten, but let's not give up on God just yet.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    This is not the Old Testament. Voices coming from the clouds, brimstone, and flaming angels are so B.C.

    Guffaws loudly

    Carry on.

    /tangent
  • Nenya wrote: »
    This is not the Old Testament. Voices coming from the clouds, brimstone, and flaming angels are so B.C.

    Guffaws loudly

    Carry on.

    /tangent

    There's no re-runs? Damn!
  • Speaking of God, has there been much ( or any) reaction to yesterday's appalling brouhaha from the fundygelical megachurch televangelists who have, up till now, been so supportive of Jesus2 Trump?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    I want more information about the woman who was shot. That's got a very bad feel to it. You would think that by now some of the rioters would have released footage of the incident, even if the police or other defenders haven't.

    I saw it yesterday. Look on Twitter if you want to see what a deadly gunshot in the middle of a melee looks like. The dead woman was a Trump rioter from San Diego, CA named Ashli Babbitt. She was an Air Force vet. She was shot by Capitol Police when she was trying to break down a door within the Capitol building.
    News yesterday referred to similar protests in state capitals, but I haven't seen anything about that.

    Rioters breached the governor's mansion in Washington state. There were protests at multiple state capitols. Read more here:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protesters-gather-outside-state-capitols-nationwide-chaos-sweeps-congress-n1253125
  • Thanks @Ruth.

    There's a report on Ashli Babbitt on the Guardian website, but I've not spotted anything (in UK meeja) about the protests in other cities.

    Presumably these other incidents have been contained?
  • edited January 7
    This woman Ashli Babbitt was a radical true believer in all of the conspiracy theories. I wonder how people with these delusions can be de-radicalized.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Well, the police can shoot them, for starts.
  • Miss Amanda that is unworthy of you. Surely Dr. King had a better dream than that.
  • Well, the police can shoot them, for starts.

    I thought we weren't doing the Old Testament things?

    (has another cup of tea and suggests same to Ms A)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited January 7
    Miss Amanda that is unworthy of you. Surely Dr. King had a better dream than that.

    Miss A wasn't the only one to think of that retort.

    I think the comeback would have been in unacceptably poor taste if Ms. Babbitt had been shot literally just for holding conspiracy-minded beliefs.

    As it stands, though, she was in all likelihood shot as a response to violent actions that she was either participating in, or at least in supportive proximity to. And the comeback was just a bit of morbid snark, along the lines of saying "Oh well, one less customer for Lynyrd Skynyrd eight-tracks" after some redneck gets killed while car-surfing in Alabama.

  • I see that one of the Capitol mob has been fired by his employer, Navistar, because he was pictured engaged in seditious riot within the Capitol whilst wearing his corporate ID badge. It's difficult to imagine what was going through this man's head when he made that particular set of choices.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I see that one of the Capitol mob has been fired by his employer, Navistar, because he was pictured engaged in seditious riot within the Capitol whilst wearing his corporate ID badge. It's difficult to imagine what was going through this man's head when he made that particular set of choices.

    I suspect he thought that his actions would be successful, the deep-state tyranny would be turfed, and he'd be a big hero to everyone, including his employers and co-workers.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I heard someone who deradicalised himself out of the conspiracy rabbit hole talking on the radio this morning. What had done it was coming across something he really could not go along with, because he knew it was wrong, so he then took a metaphorical step back and "did his own research" as we have been told by our two friends who have gone there. Only this time, he did it in the right places, and came back to normal. I don't think it possible to get anyone to that place if they aren't ready to go there.
    I had a go the other day with someone who believes the "empty hospital" film shows the truth, by sending a link to a piece by an exhausted doctor and the comments beneath by a succession of immunologists, virologists and others who knew what they were writing of, with a sprinkling of Q types. She simply took it the wrong way as if it meant the opposite from what I thought, that I was showing her the arrogance of the qualified middle class, who do not understand why people do not trust them. To be fair, she has had health problems of the difficult to diagnose sort and has improved by going on a gluten free diet and reading fringe doctors with hobby horses.
    I've now seen footage of the shooting of Ms Babbitt - some mirrored - and I don't like it. She had both hands involved in climbing through the door, so can't have been threatening anyone with a gun herself. But she was doing something stupid.
    A speaker on the radio today, Sarah Churchill, an American academic in London, suggested that yesterday was a signal about what could be done without being extreme, and a warning about what could be done instead, if they wanted to. She was worried.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited January 7
    Biden speaking now. Mostly announcing appointments to the Justice Department and emphasizing that the Attorney General isn't (supposed to be) the president's personal lawyer.

    Biden seems angry this afternoon.
  • Can't say I blame him. He deserves a better start to his Presidency.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    He’s acting as president already.

    Somebody needs to.
  • I think he's a nonentity. He's just not Trump or another one of the crazies that have ruled the US for half the 40 years I've been on this earth me. Still, at least he said this.

    No one can tell me that if it had been a group of Black Lives Matter protesting yesterday, they wouldn’t have been treated very, very differently than the mob of thugs that stormed the Capitol
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    It's difficult to imagine what was going through this man's head . . .
    It's difficult to imagine that any of them have heads for anything to go through.
  • *Nonentity* seems a bit harsh.

    Who are the other crazies you mention? Not Obama, surely?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Miss Amanda that is unworthy of you. Surely Dr. King had a better dream than that.

    Miss A wasn't the only one to think of that retort.

    I think the comeback would have been in unacceptably poor taste if Ms. Babbitt had been shot literally just for holding conspiracy-minded beliefs.

    As it stands, though, she was in all likelihood shot as a response to violent actions that she was either participating in, or at least in supportive proximity to. And the comeback was just a bit of morbid snark, along the lines of saying "Oh well, one less customer for Lynyrd Skynyrd eight-tracks" after some redneck gets killed while car-surfing in Alabama.

    Reports are saying she was climbing through a window above a door that goes into the House chamber. The capital police shot her as the congresspeople were being evacuated to a safer location.. Immediate medical attention was given after she was shot, though.
  • Reagan and GW Bush.
  • Reagan and GW Bush.

    Ah well - you have a point.

    Mind you, GW's reaction to yesterday's attempted coup was calm, measured, and not at all crazy-sounding. Perhaps he's aged well?
    :wink:
  • No, Trump has just lowered the bar. No one should forget that the other two had a full eight years in power each and that GWB, who sounds so sane now, has the blood of an entire world region on his hands.
  • RocinanteRocinante Shipmate
    Pelosi apparently wants to impeach Trump. I would imagine there's pretty much zero chance of him being tried before Jan 20th, let alone ejected from the White House. Maybe she just wants him to be the first president who was impeached twice.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 7
    @Amanda B Reckondwyth wrote:
    As has the senator who looks like he washes his face in Botox.

    Who do you mean? I will have a wild stab at old flip-flop Graham, but I really have no idea!

    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states. Our boring non-entities dropped the politics entirely when the pandemic hit and didn't let politics get in the way of shoveling bucketfulls of money at businesses and ordinary people. They acted in concert, and they mostly followed the advice of their very boring advisers. They are politicians, so there is sniping, but we have mostly moved in lock step, with only the commercial sector raising their voice in opposition to extended lockdowns.

    So I really hope that Biden acts like a boring non-entity for the sake of the United States and the world. It is boring non-entities, and not flamboyant fools like Trump or your mop-haired ditherer, who tend to have a firm grasp of the national interest and the steps required to pursue it.

    Ronnie was a bastard, but he wasn't crazy. He might have had a brain injury in the latter part of his Presidency, but that doesn't make him crazy. GW was a weak man run by his VP, but he wasn't crazy either. To compare either with Trump is a calumny (word of the month for me).

    Sadly, America's difficulties won't end with the Trump Presidency, but the events of the last few days might effect a change in the zeitgeist. I'm not holding my breath, but they might. The place to turn for hope in the USA isn't Washington DC, its Atlanta, GA. The results of the two elections in that State, the Presidential and the run-off, gives me hope that large numbers of young people and minorities will see that voting actually does make a difference. It will be on Biden and his team in Washington to demonstrate to these traditional non-voters that changing Governments can change lives.

    I love Stacey Abrams. She is so boring.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    So the election is finally over. All we have left is a decision what to do about the 'greatest ever one term president'
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