Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • Martin54 wrote: »
    And that hurts fascism how?

    Forget about that Martin. There's an undercurrent of fascism all over Europe and its offshoots that just requires the right circumstances to breach. Its probably in other cultures too, but I don't know enough about them to say. Actually, is that your Socratic point? I think it probably is.

    I am very grateful to Trump for being such a foolish fascist. If someone smart and with good tactical nous was running the American Right, they would not have shot their shot (video contains cross dressing) yesterday.

    Throw the book at Trump and his minions, but fighting fascists is a game of whack-a-mole.
  • Good for Powell. He's a complicated guy...but I kind of wish we'd had him for president. His family, terrified for his safety, talked him out of running.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Is that his story? All those years in the Army, and the thought of him running for president terrified them?

    Glad we got someone else, then, who wasn’t instrumental in lying us into the Iraq war.
  • Wesley J wrote: »
    Former Secretary of State, Colin Powell, was just on CNN (with Wolf Blitzer) - talking like an adult, and also thanking and praising the media for their work.

    Sighs of relief. Powell is VERY outspoken about the incumbent, and asking why nobody was standing up to him in Congress, which, as he says, is not what Congress is for - they're needed for the balance of powers.

    Powell is a mensch. I would have voted for him had he run - it would have been my first ever vote for a GOP presidential candidate. Since he didn't that vote is yet to emerge.
  • Powell. I'll never ever forget him talking about "killing it", when referring to destroying the retreating the Iraqi army. Yes, mass killing of retreating soldiers. That isn't a mensch. That's something else entirely. Combined with scary, dangerous and hateful.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    You've got a weird concept of war, NP. Killing of enemy soldiers is usually considered an important element, whether they're advancing or retreating. What were you expecting, mass hugging?

    And in any case, he wasn't specifically talking about the "retreating" Iraqi army. He was describing the general plan for the ground offensive before it had started ("Our strategy to go after this army is very, very simple. First, we're going to cut it off, and then we're going to kill it.") The Iraqi army hadn't had time to start retreating yet.
  • I'm convinced Powell is a good man. I don't know why he let himself be talked into misleading the UN. I haven't read the second half of his autobiography yet. The chapters on his life up to the Vietnam war were good insights for me into two different families. Powell's was from a Jamaican immigrant family in New York - factory workers from memory who were very involved in their Episcopalian church. His wife's family was from Birmingham Alabama. I can't remember her Father's occupation but they were wealthy compared to their neighbors. Reading his and Charles Blow's autobiography helped me understand something of the rich variety of African American lives.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I'm convinced Powell is a good man. I don't know why he let himself be talked into misleading the UN.

    That's what he does. Powell got his start explaining away U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He's always been a "good soldier" about pushing the official line to the press and the public.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I'm convinced Powell is a good man. I don't know why he let himself be talked into misleading the UN. I haven't read the second half of his autobiography yet.
    You’re convinced he’s a good man because that’s how he comes across in his autobiography?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate

    deleted
  • Dave W wrote: »
    Is that his story? All those years in the Army, and the thought of him running for president terrified them?

    Glad we got someone else, then, who wasn’t instrumental in lying us into the Iraq war.

    Well, Powell's family was terrified he'd be assassinated for being African American. I think they were wise. And that's not just his story--it's *theirs*. IIRC, they were public about it.

    As to the rest: like I said, he's complicated. But I think he has the instincts, skills, and makings of a great leader, and I'm sorry he didn't get to use those as president.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    How long before *real* Trump tweets the opposite?

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Never, I suspect. Note that this was a video of Trump talking, not him typing words into a post.

    My guess is that his Twitter password was changed by his staff during the suspension, effectively locking him out of the account. They are doing all they can to contain his communication to try and mitigate the chances of a successful impeachment.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Powell. I'll never ever forget him talking about "killing it", when referring to destroying the retreating the Iraqi army. Yes, mass killing of retreating soldiers. That isn't a mensch. That's something else entirely. Combined with scary, dangerous and hateful.

    Quote him properly or get off the pot.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    And that hurts fascism how?

    Forget about that Martin. There's an undercurrent of fascism all over Europe and its offshoots that just requires the right circumstances to breach. Its probably in other cultures too, but I don't know enough about them to say. Actually, is that your Socratic point? I think it probably is.

    I am very grateful to Trump for being such a foolish fascist. If someone smart and with good tactical nous was running the American Right, they would not have shot their shot (video contains cross dressing) yesterday.

    Throw the book at Trump and his minions, but fighting fascists is a game of whack-a-mole.

    Nigel Farage isn't able to command mobs with automatic weapons capable of overcoming Parliament.

    It's unbelievably foolish to regard Trump's increasingly effective command of fascism as foolish.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Boogie wrote: »
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    One suspects he's been instructed in no uncertain terms to read that out on pain of some quite nasty consequences including, but not limited to, impeachment and being charged with sedition.

    Will his followers comply, or will they now turn on him the way they have turned on every other Republican Hero who has dared to speak out against their extremism?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Boogie wrote: »
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    One suspects he's been instructed in no uncertain terms to read that out on pain of some quite nasty consequences including, but not limited to, impeachment and being charged with sedition.

    Will his followers comply, or will they now turn on him the way they have turned on every other Republican Hero who has dared to speak out against their extremism?

    He's having his cake and eat it. Putting the velvet glove on the mailed fist. Genius. Fascist genius. Perfect fascist genius.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I'm convinced Powell is a good man. I don't know why he let himself be talked into misleading the UN.

    That's what he does. Powell got his start explaining away U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He's always been a "good soldier" about pushing the official line to the press and the public.

    Very few people with the skills and experience to participate in the governance of the USA at the highest levels are cleanskins. We have just experienced what an administration of cleanskins feels like, even putting the treasonous sedition to one side.

    There's nothing in that Columbia article that I can condemn him for to such an extend as to disqualify him from high office. His answers to Maddow and Greenburg are textbook politics. The argument against Powell on the don't ask don't tell policy is that instead of using the opportunity he had been given by the armed forces integrating to help others who were discriminated against, he was part of a political compromise that enshrined that discrimination. Its a nasty argument, implying that Powell owed somebody for the fact that he was allowed to serve with distinction, rising to the highest ranks. He should have been grateful, or at least payed it forward, because he is black. I can understand why the argument was made given when it was written - in 2009, when the push was on again to allow LGBTIQ people to serve openly. When people are on the attack in the heat of rhetorical battle, sometimes they can make mistakes. I won't hold that one against the author.

    The implication in the article that Powell actively participated in the cover up of My Lai is not shared by David Corn, who when attacking Powell in a 2001 article in The Nation, wrote:
    Powell has never been implicated in any of the wrongdoing involving My Lai. No evidence ties him to the attempted cover-up. But he was part of an institution (and a division) that tried hard to keep the story of My Lai hidden–a point unacknowledged in his autobiography. Moreover, several months before he was interviewed by Sheehan, Powell was ordered to look into allegations made by another former GI that US troops had "without provocation or justification" killed civilians. (These charges did not mention My Lai specifically.) Powell mounted a most cursory examination. He did not ask the accuser for more specific information. He interviewed a few officers and reported to his superiors that there was nothing to the allegations [see "Questions for Powell," The Nation, January 8/15, 2001]. This exercise is not mentioned in his memoirs.

    Certainly Powell did the wrong thing in his speech to the United Nations. He seems to have made perfunctory inquiries into allegations of wrongdoing in 1968. That is not even similar conduct evidence. Powell is a flawed and boring politician who has made significant mistakes over a long career. He takes direction, he does not act solely on his own initiative, he seeks expert advice and acts on it. He has a long history of good judgement. America has done a great deal worse that Colin Powell in its choice of Commander in Chief, and if he was President in 2020, America would be in much better shape in the fight against the pandemic. The only person who could do a better job is Hilary Clinton.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    He looks as though he's either been threatened with something very nasty or is under the influence of strong medication.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    How long before *real* Trump tweets the opposite?

    He's still lying! He didn't call in the National Guard, that was Cipolline.

    As for him speaking of the "sacred bonds of love and loyalty", it's enough to make you vomit. Trump has never shown loyalty to anything or anyone, not even family.

    The Liar-in-Chief carries on unrepentant.

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    One suspects he's been instructed in no uncertain terms to read that out on pain of some quite nasty consequences including, but not limited to, impeachment and being charged with sedition.

    Will his followers comply, or will they now turn on him the way they have turned on every other Republican Hero who has dared to speak out against their extremism?

    He's having his cake and eat it. Putting the velvet glove on the mailed fist. Genius. Fascist genius. Perfect fascist genius.

    Perfect fascist genius? He utterly failed to rig an eminently riggable election. Did he really think he would win without large scale cheating in the right places? Did he think that he was popular with most Americans or something? Where was the serious voter intimidation we were all watching for? Why did the Post Office manage to get so many ballots delivered on time? Plus, his mob wasn't actually controlled by him. He didn't have his people properly in place, because that attack on the Hill was the dumbest move he could make. If they had marched around the place doing a Jericho, that would set him up nicely for 2024. Now, he's going to have to spend all that filthy lucre he's got on lawyers, proper lawyers. I bet he just did the thing laisses faire style, not really thinking about it, instead of marshalling an army of organisers to keep his people calm and orderly.

    Perfect fascist genius my arse. A perfect fascist genius would be starting a second term, and getting his ducks in line for a lawful coup in four years time.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Just seen a Politico report that close to half of GOP supporters approved of the storming of the Capitol.

    Source.

    I suppose it may be a little while before the long term impact on Trump supporters emerges. Trump's latest video, obviously scripted by others, does condemn the violent invasion of the Capitol. It's thought that it was an attempt to prevent further resignations. He will revert to type shortly.

    But given the money he has now accumulated, there is now a distinct risk that he will want to take his core supporters on a new 'adventure' and encourage the creation of a new MAGA party of Trump loyalists. It's a direction well suited to his self belief.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I thought exactly the same - a maga party for him to enjoy more rallies and adulation.

  • That would be just what the Dr ordered. President Harris, then President Abrams for two terms each. A generation of progressive governance.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    That would be just what the Dr ordered. President Harris, then President Abrams for two terms each. A generation of progressive governance.

    Yes - he would split the right wing vote nicely. Would he care? Not in the least. as long as he has a base to whip up to love (of him) and hatred (of anyone who disagrees with him).



  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Just seen a Politico report that close to half of GOP supporters approved of the storming of the Capitol.

    Source.

    I suppose it may be a little while before the long term impact on Trump supporters emerges. Trump's latest video, obviously scripted by others, does condemn the violent invasion of the Capitol. It's thought that it was an attempt to prevent further resignations. He will revert to type shortly.

    But given the money he has now accumulated, there is now a distinct risk that he will want to take his core supporters on a new 'adventure' and encourage the creation of a new MAGA party of Trump loyalists. It's a direction well suited to his self belief.

    He doesn't have to. He's already got one. He bought the Republican party, remember? In a hostile takeover. And brought the Nazis in to the fold.

    Perfect fascist genius.
  • No, he's not a perfect fascist genius, at all. There's no such thing.
  • Well, Trump's niece Mary isn't buying into DT's attempt to distance himself from his mob.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    I am reminded of the (now not so) new Battlestar Galactica, in which the credits ominously informed the audience every week that the Cylons have a plan. Every week the plan seemed more and more elaborate and subtle, aimed at some ever more ineffable goal, with some manoeuvres that might actually win the war for the Cylons seemingly failing, and some manoeuvres seemingly undoing the effects of other manoeuvres, until they finally, after the series finished, revealed that in fact the plan was a series of improvisations by conflicting factions who weren't even quite sure what they wanted themselves.

    It is possible that Trump has an incredibly sophisticated long-term plan, that US democracy is so robust that Trump cannot defeat it with any short-term plan, and so has to work through a series of what look like short-term defeats, failures, and humiliations that each leave him in an ostensibly weaker position. Or it could be that Trump is just improvising chaotically.

    Trump clearly had a first-step in a plan to steal the election: claim victory when ahead taking advantage of the fact that the Democrat votes, being more urban and postal, would come in later. He'd been laying the grounds for step one for months. But he had no coherent step two, except to launch lots of lawsuits without doing anything to guarantee that they would succeed. It's possible that the absence of any apparent step two is part of a long-term plan of such subtlety that it cannot be detected. Or it's possible that it's just incompetence.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    No, he's not a perfect fascist genius, at all. There's no such thing.

    Uh huh. Well the trouble is the imperfect ones are pretty effective. Mussolini, Dolfuss,
    Hitler, Vargas, Pavelic (knew one of his kin), Laval, Franco. And many, many more in having a part in ruining countries and hundreds of millions of lives across the world.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    No, he's not a perfect fascist genius, at all. There's no such thing.

    Uh huh. Well the trouble is the imperfect ones are pretty effective. Mussolini, Dolfuss,
    Hitler, Vargas, Pavelic (knew one of his kin), Laval, Franco. And many, many more in having a part in ruining countries and hundreds of millions of lives across the world.

    Well, yes, but I agree with Dafyd above, he's not planning this. Also, I doubt if he could take the military with him, although no doubt many voted for him. Hitler always had military backing, in fact, the "state within a state", preceded him. Would US generals swing behind a coup? It's a heck of a step to take, probably leading to civil war.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Robot Trump throws his supporters under a a bus - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1347334804052844550?s=20

    One suspects he's been instructed in no uncertain terms to read that out on pain of some quite nasty consequences including, but not limited to, impeachment and being charged with sedition.

    There are a couple of reports that yes, prior to this he'd had lawyers telling him for about 24 hours he was at genuine risk of ending up in prison.

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    No, he's not a perfect fascist genius, at all. There's no such thing.

    Uh huh. Well the trouble is the imperfect ones are pretty effective. Mussolini, Dolfuss,
    Hitler, Vargas, Pavelic (knew one of his kin), Laval, Franco. And many, many more in having a part in ruining countries and hundreds of millions of lives across the world.

    What your doomsaying appears not to take into account is the demonstrated independence of the judicial branch of the US government. Even Trump-appointed justices have not toed the party line. Biden made it clear his new DoJ appointees were not answerable to him. The video on Twitter is clear evidence in my view that Trump is no longer in effective control. From my perspective, the US is in a better place than it was 48 hours ago.
  • I hear people saying, "At least it wasn't an armed militia". But next time? Possibly, some budding Hitler is making notes, a pliant judiciary and military required. If it's like Hitler, it's 1923 (beer hall putsch), not 1933. But Hitler did make notes.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Hitler launched the Beer Hall Putsch, failed utterly, went to prison, put it behind him, and them won political office by legal means and then used that office to usurp power. Trump has won political office by legal means, and has used his four years in power to organise his version of the Beer Hall Putsch.
  • I just keep hearing people say, "its like 1933". No, more like 1923.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Hitler launched the Beer Hall Putsch, failed utterly, went to prison, put it behind him, and them won political office by legal means and then used that office to usurp power. Trump has won political office by legal means, and has used his four years in power to organise his version of the Beer Hall Putsch.

    That I like.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Hitler was considerably younger in 1923 than Trump is now. Trump is not immortal, nor is he in good health, mentally or physically.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Hitler was considerably younger in 1923 than Trump is now. Trump is not immortal, nor is he in good health, mentally or physically.

    And the Beer Hall Putsch was led by - among others - Erich Ludendorf rather than the Q Shaman.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    No, he's not a perfect fascist genius, at all. There's no such thing.

    Uh huh. Well the trouble is the imperfect ones are pretty effective. Mussolini, Dolfuss,
    Hitler, Vargas, Pavelic (knew one of his kin), Laval, Franco. And many, many more in having a part in ruining countries and hundreds of millions of lives across the world.

    What your doomsaying appears not to take into account is the demonstrated independence of the judicial branch of the US government. Even Trump-appointed justices have not toed the party line. Biden made it clear his new DoJ appointees were not answerable to him. The video on Twitter is clear evidence in my view that Trump is no longer in effective control. From my perspective, the US is in a better place than it was 48 hours ago.

    That's nice dear, we all saw that. This man is the greatest individual threat to America and the world and will continue to be with his heirs apparent Cruz, Hawley and the other five bastards who delayed Congress’ ratification of the Electoral College result. I knew 'his' judges would demonstrate nothing but integrity. How does that stop the energized fascists on the street with automatic weapons? How does it end his ownership of the GOP? How does it end the idolatrous adoration of the man who can do no wrong, who won more votes than any other incumbent president in history? Are you watching the same analytical news that I am? Are you hearing everything Biden is saying?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I hear people saying, "At least it wasn't an armed militia".

    And bombs don't count because . . . ?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I hear people saying, "At least it wasn't an armed militia".

    And bombs don't count because . . . ?

    Open question, did any of the mob have open carry weapons? I can't actually see that they did. And there were no bombs at the Capitol either.
  • An important footnote:

    We've been seeing polls indicating that 40-60% of the GOP believe that the election was tainted by fraud, completely fraudulent, run by lizard people, etc. Most media sources don't tell you, or even link to, the methodology of the poll. You're left to drill down on your own. When a poll says, "x% of Republicans believe that..." you are almost never told whether it's people who self-identify as Republican, voted Republican in the most recent election, are registered Republican, or some other definition. For instance, ca. 22% (I think that I'm right or quite close on that) of the electorate are registered GOP, which is quite different from what people casually assume. If 60% (just picking that) believe that the election was in some degree tainted by fraud (from somewhat to entirely), that's only 13.2% of the electorate. That's in addition to the usual caveats about sample size, selection, distribution, and what we're never told unless you go to the primary source, what the means of the poll (telephone? landline? So many people don't answer their cell if they don't recognise the number) was. That figure of 13.2% is still concerning both regarding the GOP and regarding the electorate as a whole, but considering that I've been seeing such statistically varying figures, I thought that it was a good time for a friendly reminder. I return you to our regular programming.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Never, I suspect. Note that this was a video of Trump talking, not him typing words into a post.

    My guess is that his Twitter password was changed by his staff during the suspension, effectively locking him out of the account. They are doing all they can to contain his communication to try and mitigate the chances of a successful impeachment.

    Business Insider reporting that the film that was released was done after he realised the possible legal consequences. It's possible that his temporary moderation on Twitter was down to similar reasons (he appears to be back on form since).

    Yahoo has a video of the Trump family partying in between Trump addressing the crowd and the Capitol building being mobbed.
  • An important footnote:

    We've been seeing polls indicating that 40-60% of the GOP believe that the election was tainted by fraud, completely fraudulent, run by lizard people, etc. Most media sources don't tell you, or even link to, the methodology of the poll.

    ...or how leading it was. It's quite easy to lead people into agreeing that there was some fraud present in the election (and it's entirely plausible that the amount of fraud was not zero). There is no case at all that there was anything like enough fraud to alter the result anywhere, but by asking the right question, you can make "one person voted fraudulently somewhere" look like "election tainted by fraud".
  • edited January 8
    Dave W wrote: »
    You've got a weird concept of war, NP. Killing of enemy soldiers is usually considered an important element, whether they're advancing or retreating. What were you expecting, mass hugging?

    And in any case, he wasn't specifically talking about the "retreating" Iraqi army. He was describing the general plan for the ground offensive before it had started ("Our strategy to go after this army is very, very simple. First, we're going to cut it off, and then we're going to kill it.") The Iraqi army hadn't had time to start retreating yet.

    Exactly when in the sequence of events his statement was made, it's still a problem: casual discussion of slaughter. That's the problem. It showed something of the man's character. Scary asshole.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Never, I suspect. Note that this was a video of Trump talking, not him typing words into a post.

    My guess is that his Twitter password was changed by his staff during the suspension, effectively locking him out of the account. They are doing all they can to contain his communication to try and mitigate the chances of a successful impeachment.

    Business Insider reporting that the film that was released was done after he realised the possible legal consequences. It's possible that his temporary moderation on Twitter was down to similar reasons (he appears to be back on form since).

    Yahoo has a video of the Trump family partying in between Trump addressing the crowd and the Capitol building being mobbed.

    I take Business Insider reporting with a fair pinch of salt.

    The video you linked to from Yahoo has been widely reported as being after Trump addressed the crowd, but it is from before he took the platform, as the article itself states.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Dave W wrote: »
    You've got a weird concept of war, NP. Killing of enemy soldiers is usually considered an important element, whether they're advancing or retreating. What were you expecting, mass hugging?
    Killing enemy soldiers in war is a means to an end, and is not even the most important means: the main means of victory in war is and always has been getting the enemy to lose morale so that they stop fighting. Killing the enemy while they're advancing or holding position helps with that goal. Killing the enemy while they're retreating is of limited military use and is often frowned upon.

  • edited January 8
    Yes, it is Dafyd.

    Additional information about Colin Powell which confirms what I previously posted: Highway of Death, quoting
    "The attacks became controversial, with some commentators arguing that they represented disproportionate use of force...former United States Attorney General Ramsey Clark argued that these attacks violated the Third Geneva Convention, Common Article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who "are out of combat." Clark included it in his 1991 report WAR CRIMES: A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq to the Commission of Inquiry for the International War Crimes Tribunal
    .

    Also this article which quotes Colin Powell and about him:
    When then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin Powell, was asked about the number of deaths the Iraqi military suffered, he said, "I don’t have a clue and I don’t plan to undertake any real effort to find out." This is the same man who stated several months after Desert Storm that his goal was to "make the world scared to death of the United States."

  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Killing the enemy while they're retreating is of limited military use and is often frowned upon.

    Not always, because retreating is not the same as being "out of combat". Troops that are falling back toward defensive positions are still very much viable targets, and if you wait for them to turn and fight again before you attack them then you may be putting yourself at a severe disadvantage.
This discussion has been closed.