Break Glass - 2020 USA Elections

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Comments

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt. Heck, most Americans would be hard pressed to name all the presidents of that period without resorting to Google.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    Make sure that he can't run again.
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    Make sure that he can't run again.

    There is a thoughtful article here as to how that can be achieved by a simple majority vote in a Senate trial.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.
  • I don't think there's any relationship between the US Military and the type of leader you elect. Obama is a great campaigner, a great speaker, but as President he was boring as batshit.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt.

    There was a little thing called the Monroe Doctrine.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @Amanda B Reckondwyth wrote:
    As has the senator who looks like he washes his face in Botox.

    Who do you mean? I will have a wild stab at old flip-flop Graham, but I really have no idea!

    Now, now. You're asking Miss Amanda to name him when she took such careful steps not to. But your guess is a creditable one.
  • What have happened had the mob of people been able to get to the big room of politicians in the American Capitol building before they were successfully evacuated?

    Hostage taking and demands? A few beatings?
  • Penny S wrote: »
    But she was doing something stupid.

    She was doing something illegal.
  • If she was a veteran, she was breaking the oath she took.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I don't think there's any relationship between the US Military and the type of leader you elect. Obama is a great campaigner, a great speaker, but as President he was boring as batshit.

    Let's see

    Obama brought the United States out of the great recession
    He saved the American automobile manufacturers-- and even brought a profit back into the US treasury
    He got the Affordable Care Act passed
    He brought piracy off the Sudanese coast to a standstill.
    He authorized the killing of Osama Ben Lauden.
    He worked with France and Britain to stop Gadhafi
    He signed the Paris Climate Accords
    He was able to reach a settlement with Iran
    He worked hard to be there for the victims and their families at Sandy Hook, and Charlotte South Carolina.
    When a number of natural disasters struck the US he was on the ground within the week.
    He brought aid to Haiti after their earthquake.
    He helped to contain the Ebola outbreak in Africa.
    He was able to keep the Swine Flu epidemic to a minimum in the US--and even developed a plan on how to deal with any future viral outbreaks (which someone threw away when he came into office.
    He has a beautiful singing voice


    Yep, if Obama was as boring as batshit, I would much rather see someone like him the office again--oh, wait, we have Biden and Harris. I forgot.
  • Re what's next:

    I don't think it's over. Granted, it will never be over for T: he'll be claiming (online, talk shows, books, maybe his own network) for the rest of his life that he's the one, true president; the election was stolen from him; and everyone should kneel to him every day.

    But I think he'll keep trying during the next couple months. This is *everything* to him. Everything has been coming together in him:
    • "only winners deserve to be loved" (his dad, to all the kids);
    • "create the life you want via positive thinking" (Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, positive-thinking guru and T's long-time pastor from childhood on);
    • all manner of legal problems (that's *before* yesterday's riot/coup);
    • I don't know if his grown kids actually care about him, or even know how (though DT Jr. does know how to go into a total, public meltdown over his dad being denied the presidency); Melania cares, at least a little, underneath everything, but I don't know how Barron feels.

    ISTM that, in the months leading up to the 2020 election, T became much more solid, more focused. Now, is he a singularity point? In his desperation and anger, will he sweep us all into his event horizon, and become a black hole?

    (Ok, ok, too much sci-fi! ;) )
  • Re Ashli Babbitt:
    mousethief wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    But she was doing something stupid.

    She was doing something illegal.
    If she was a veteran, she was breaking the oath she took.

    Yes to all of that.

    ~~But/and~~

    Looking from another angle, she was following the direction of the Commander-in-Chief. She, if she believed, was acting in defense of the Constitution, the United States, and the president.

    Which might constitute faithfully keeping her oath. I don't agree with what she did, nor with the riot/coup. But it's not as simple as breaking her oath.

    Related:

    Listening to NPR Thurs., I heard an audio clip from CNN. A Trump true believer called into a show. She was crying and completely distraught. IIRC, she said "Did my president lie to me today? Please tell me--and tell the family of that woman who was killed...".

    I felt for her.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    No, Trump has just lowered the bar. No one should forget that the other two had a full eight years in power each and that GWB, who sounds so sane now, has the blood of an entire world region on his hands.

    Even taking into account Trump's absolute wackadoodlery and disrespect for the governing process, I still rate GWB lower. The bulk of the damage done by Donald J. was inflicted upon the USA itself(aka the country that chose to elect him), whereas Bush 2 effed up entire regions of the world.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt.

    There was a little thing called the Monroe Doctrine.

    But most Americans who aren't in the process of studying for a history exam probably couldn't tell you anything about Monroe beyond that there is a doctrine named after him.
  • Well, this Brit knows that he was involved in the Louisiana purchase and outlawed slavery north of 36° north (I think).
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I don't think there's any relationship between the US Military and the type of leader you elect. Obama is a great campaigner, a great speaker, but as President he was boring as batshit.

    Let's see

    Obama brought the United States out of the great recession
    He saved the American automobile manufacturers-- and even brought a profit back into the US treasury
    He got the Affordable Care Act passed
    He brought piracy off the Sudanese coast to a standstill.
    He authorized the killing of Osama Ben Lauden.
    He worked with France and Britain to stop Gadhafi
    He signed the Paris Climate Accords
    He was able to reach a settlement with Iran
    He worked hard to be there for the victims and their families at Sandy Hook, and Charlotte South Carolina.
    When a number of natural disasters struck the US he was on the ground within the week.
    He brought aid to Haiti after their earthquake.
    He helped to contain the Ebola outbreak in Africa.
    He was able to keep the Swine Flu epidemic to a minimum in the US--and even developed a plan on how to deal with any future viral outbreaks (which someone threw away when he came into office.
    He has a beautiful singing voice


    Yep, if Obama was as boring as batshit, I would much rather see someone like him the office again--oh, wait, we have Biden and Harris. I forgot.

    Gramps, that was my point. Boring as batshit good. Flamboyant egomaniac bad.

    Munroe doctrine was about the US not tolerating European intervention in the Western Hemisphere, IIRC.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt. Heck, most Americans would be hard pressed to name all the presidents of that period without resorting to Google.

    Er, (Johnson of course!). Grant. (Hayes... who?!). Harding. Garfield. (Arthur). (Cleveland). (Harrison). (Cleveland). (McKinley). The shame! The unbracketed are who I could name first off. Ask me in a year!
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I don't think there's any relationship between the US Military and the type of leader you elect. Obama is a great campaigner, a great speaker, but as President he was boring as batshit.

    Chiropteran defaecation is quite intriguing actually. How do they manage not to get covered in it whilst roosting?
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    At each checkpoint (really on the whole including yesterday at the end), I'd been relieved that the odds were a bit better for America, but...
    (E.g. if the president had forced Georgia to create votes, what would the other day have been)

    (Incidentally conservative protesters totally did invade the UK chamber, a few years ago. But it wasnt as part of a bigger thing, you also have a few stunts left and right from the viewing area)
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Golden Key wrote: »
    "Did my president lie to me today? "

    Yes, dear. That's what the devil does.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Re Ashli Babbitt:
    mousethief wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    But she was doing something stupid.

    She was doing something illegal.
    If she was a veteran, she was breaking the oath she took.

    Yes to all of that.

    ~~But/and~~

    Looking from another angle, she was following the direction of the Commander-in-Chief. She, if she believed, was acting in defense of the Constitution, the United States, and the president.

    Which might constitute faithfully keeping her oath. I don't agree with what she did, nor with the riot/coup. But it's not as simple as breaking her oath.

    Related:

    Listening to NPR Thurs., I heard an audio clip from CNN. A Trump true believer called into a show. She was crying and completely distraught. IIRC, she said "Did my president lie to me today? Please tell me--and tell the family of that woman who was killed...".

    I felt for her.

    It's actually a fairly important principle of the military that you don't follow orders that you know to be wrong. Has Nuremberg taught you nothing?
  • Exactly. They swear to obey lawful orders.
  • November 2018:
    From the top:

    Democrats - Richard Ojeda has caught my fancy and I think Kamala Harris is amazing. Balanced ticket, Ojeda draws Trump voters, Harris can wipe the floor with anybody the Republicans put up for Vice-President. The Republicans have established that you don't really need any government or legislative experience for President, and Ojeda is a veteran, which puts him more than a bit ahead of Cadet Bonespurs in terms of relevant experience.

    Republicans - Are there any brave enough to try to primary Trump? Will Trump bow out gracefully and move to a nice dacha in Russia before being indicted in absentia? Does Mike Pence really want to be Vice-President for another 4 years?

    The House will be up for grabs again and presidential year elections have bigger turnouts. Is the Senate a toss-up?

    January 2021: Kamala Harris is Vice-President Elect, nobody primaried Trump, the Democrats held the House and gained control of the Senate. Trump was impeached. The GOP was too gutless to invoke the 25th, and after four years of shit and an attempted coup, Twitter and Facebook finally locked Trump's accounts.

    But never, ever, ever did I imagine I would see a rebel rag displayed in the US Capitol.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Ulysses S. Grant and Abraham Lincoln are turning in their graves.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt.
    There was a little thing called the Monroe Doctrine.
    But most Americans who aren't in the process of studying for a history exam probably couldn't tell you anything about Monroe beyond that there is a doctrine named after him.

    Yeah, they might even claim that the Monroe administration (1817-1825) fell somewhere between the presidencies of Abraham Lincoln (1861-1865) and Theodore Roosevelt (1901-1909).
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited January 8
    I presume the only thing most people know about Grover Cleveland is that he is the only President to be reelected after losing an election, a distinction which we hope he will still have in four years time, because it wouldn't be fair to wish a second term on Carter at his age.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    I presume the only thing most people know about Grover Cleveland is that he is the only President to be reelected after losing an election, a distinction which we hope he will still have in four years time, because it wouldn't be fair to wish a second term on Carter at his age.

    To be honest I think if in 4 years time it came down to Trump or Zombie Carter I'd be rooting for the brain eater.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    At least zombies have a coherent strategy and value brains.
  • /tangent/

    "Boring as batshit"? In North America it's "batshit crazy", which is anything but boring. Is "boring as batshit" a thing in Oz?

    /end tangent/
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Crœsos wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @CamryOfTheApocalypse One of the things we in Australia are grateful for is that we tend to have boring non-entities as Prime Minister and Premiers of our states.

    It used to be an American tradition as well. Try to think about the specific agendas of any president of the late nineteenth century. Essentially any president between Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt.
    There was a little thing called the Monroe Doctrine.
    But most Americans who aren't in the process of studying for a history exam probably couldn't tell you anything about Monroe beyond that there is a doctrine named after him.

    Yeah, they might even claim that the Monroe administration (1817-1825) fell somewhere between the presidencies of Abraham Lincoln (1861-1865) and Theodore Roosevelt (1901-1909).

    I thought that at first but then decided that Ruth probably meant that the presidents between Lincoln and T. Roosevelt consistently tried to implement the Monroe Doctrine. According to Wikipedia it wasn't even called the Monroe Doctrine until the second half of the 19th century.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.

    At the moment the USA look weak if the military are likely to ignore the President


  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Dafyd wrote: »
    At least zombies have a coherent strategy and value brains.

    OK, that made me laugh a lot.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Telford wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.

    At the moment the USA look weak if the military are likely to ignore the President


    Latest news reports tell us that Speaker Pelosi is in touch with the military, and that that they are certainly NOT ignoring the President.
    https://theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/08/donald-trump-capitol-impeachment-joe-biden-election-coronavirus-covid-live-updates

    If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Been reading round, and picking up on social media reports of plans to hold lawmakers hostage and execute on a gallows. And to take concealed guns, because laws don't mean the patriots.
    If this stuff was around on right wing sites, why in heaven's name did the FBI not know and have plans to prevent it and execute those plans?
    And I have also read, but not seen, film as I had not seen before, that the were metal poles being brandished. So I was wrong about that.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    Guns - I was comparing what I was seeing in the videos with the invasion in Michigan, where there were very obvious guns being swaggered with, and that couple with their guns aimed at BLM protestors.
    I want more information about the woman who was shot. That's got a very bad feel to it. You would think that by now some of the rioters would have released footage of the incident, even if the police or other defenders haven't.
    I wasn't saying it wasn't shocking, appalling and horrifying, but that it could have been a whole lot worse.
    News yesterday referred to similar protests in state capitals, but I haven't seen anything about that. My friend is of the opinion that the whole thing was very carefully planned, and Trump knows exactly what he is doing.

    So far, there were five deaths during the melee, including a police officer ...
    Even if The Emperor tries to pardon himself over his direct role in incitement of Federal crimes, he will almost certainly be sued in Civil Court for Wrongful Death ...
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.

    At the moment the USA look weak if the military are likely to ignore the President


    Latest news reports tell us that Speaker Pelosi is in touch with the military, and that that they are certainly NOT ignoring the President.
    https://theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/08/donald-trump-capitol-impeachment-joe-biden-election-coronavirus-covid-live-updates

    If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.
    I mean that they should do something Pronto.

  • If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.

    That would be tantamount to a military coup, which would be a very very bad thing.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Munroe doctrine was about the US not tolerating European intervention in the Western Hemisphere, IIRC.

    I believe now it is interpreted to mean that the US may overthrow any government in the western hemisphere that it finds unamenable to its wishes. At least de facto.
  • So far, there were five deaths during the melee, including a police officer ...
    Even if The Emperor tries to pardon himself over his direct role in incitement of Federal crimes, he will almost certainly be sued in Civil Court for Wrongful Death ...

    For those keeping count, in the massive rioting nationwide following the killing of George Floyd last year, 19 people were killed. Given the much smaller scale of this mob, five deaths does not support the claim that this was a mostly peaceful action.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 8
    mousethief wrote: »
    If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.

    That would be tantamount to a military coup, which would be a very very bad thing.

    O yes - I understand that, but the thought of Trump being led away in chains is an appealing one. Perhaps not by the Military, indeed, as things don't (or shouldn't) work that way.

  • I had a mental image yesterday of T leaving DC, but having to do it via walking through a very, very long gauntlet, made up of all the officials and minions he dissed or fired; those who left on their own; everyone in the US who's had covid or lost someone; all the first responders and frontline workers; all essential workers; every one of his True Believer disciples who are losing faith in him...and on and on.
  • People I know who supported Trump are still calling him a wonderful president today. I have had enough, time to hit the unfriend button.
  • orfeo--
    orfeo wrote: »

    It's actually a fairly important principle of the military that you don't follow orders that you know to be wrong. Has Nuremberg taught you nothing?

    But that's what I was saying: She, given her belief in T as commander-in-chief, may not have known the orders/incitement to be wrong. She may well have believed that T, as the commander-in-chief, should be respected, protected, and obeyed; that he was the legitimately re-elected president; and that it was her duty as a veteran and a patriot to put things right.

    Again: I don't agree at all with what she and the others did. But IMHO judging her fairly/rightly isn't as simple as saying she knew T's orders to be wrong.

    All sorts of particles of tragedy, combined and recombined into all sorts of molecules.
    :votive:

  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    /tangent/

    "Boring as batshit"? In North America it's "batshit crazy", which is anything but boring. Is "boring as batshit" a thing in Oz?

    /end tangent/

    Yes it is; like dumb as dogshit or thick as pigshit.

    Always happy to clarify.

    Here endeth the tangent.



  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    orfeo--
    orfeo wrote: »

    It's actually a fairly important principle of the military that you don't follow orders that you know to be wrong. Has Nuremberg taught you nothing?

    But that's what I was saying: She, given her belief in T as commander-in-chief, may not have known the orders/incitement to be wrong. She may well have believed that T, as the commander-in-chief, should be respected, protected, and obeyed; that he was the legitimately re-elected president; and that it was her duty as a veteran and a patriot to put things right.

    Again: I don't agree at all with what she and the others did. But IMHO judging her fairly/rightly isn't as simple as saying she knew T's orders to be wrong.

    All sorts of particles of tragedy, combined and recombined into all sorts of molecules.
    :votive:

    In that case she was either as malignant as her idol or just plain stupid.

    Or both.

  • People I know who supported Trump are still calling him a wonderful president today. I have had enough, time to hit the unfriend button.

    The Emperor's disciples will love him all the more ...
    He once claimed -- almost as if he hardly could believe it himself -- "I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any support ..."

    This is a VERY nasty aspect of deep American culture, which idolizes The Outlaw -- Butch Cassidy, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Al Capone, et al. ...
  • .
    Telford wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.

    At the moment the USA look weak if the military are likely to ignore the President


    Latest news reports tell us that Speaker Pelosi is in touch with the military, and that that they are certainly NOT ignoring the President.
    https://theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/08/donald-trump-capitol-impeachment-joe-biden-election-coronavirus-covid-live-updates

    If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.

    Not alas.

    That would be horrible, if the military were to involve themselves in any way, because it would create a precedent ready for use by the next somewhat brainier asshat down the pike.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    .
    Telford wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, since the United States still maintains the world's largest military our executive officers are not non-entities. It is not good when we have a deraigned person at the helm. Makes us look dangerous.

    At the moment the USA look weak if the military are likely to ignore the President


    Latest news reports tell us that Speaker Pelosi is in touch with the military, and that that they are certainly NOT ignoring the President.
    https://theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/08/donald-trump-capitol-impeachment-joe-biden-election-coronavirus-covid-live-updates

    If you mean that you'd like to see the Military arrest and detain Trump, I can only say I agree with you...but I don't think it quite works that way, alas.

    Not alas.

    That would be horrible, if the military were to involve themselves in any way, because it would create a precedent ready for use by the next somewhat brainier asshat down the pike.

    Indeed not. Look, just run for Congress will you? You know you're our favourite Republican.
  • Re "bat shit", you can't make this stuff up. Guy is stealing painting from wall of USA Capitol building. The Taser he was carrying goes off, zapping him in the testicles. He dies.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Fuck45/comments/kt741e/meet_kevin_greeson_55_of_alabama_he_posted_on/
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    orfeo--
    orfeo wrote: »

    It's actually a fairly important principle of the military that you don't follow orders that you know to be wrong. Has Nuremberg taught you nothing?

    But that's what I was saying: She, given her belief in T as commander-in-chief, may not have known the orders/incitement to be wrong. She may well have believed that T, as the commander-in-chief, should be respected, protected, and obeyed; that he was the legitimately re-elected president; and that it was her duty as a veteran and a patriot to put things right.

    Again: I don't agree at all with what she and the others did. But IMHO judging her fairly/rightly isn't as simple as saying she knew T's orders to be wrong.

    All sorts of particles of tragedy, combined and recombined into all sorts of molecules.
    :votive:

    In that case she was either as malignant as her idol or just plain stupid.

    Or both.

    But not projecting.
This discussion has been closed.