No @mousethief and @ECraigR, you've either misread or misunderstood what I've criticised and called the 'pretentious we'.
Anyway, I'm not going to say any more about this on this thread. It's a tangent, material only to the thread's title and not to its actual subject matter.
Cool, because you purposefully misread what I wrote, so I accept your movement away. It's not a tangent and you suck at reading.
I'm not saying that the actors involved in Wednesday's shitshow shouldn't be prosecuted, clearly they should be and are. I'm saying, specifically, Trump should not be, and I don't believe there are any grounds for prosecuting Hawley and the like, though they should certainly be smeared and stained with this forever. I'm responding directly to the claim that Trump should be charged with sedition or something along those lines. That won't solve anything besides make all of us who don't like him happy.
I've given this rant before elsewhere but I think it needs re-stating.
Richard Nixon suffered no consequences from Watergate. Most of his inner circle did time in various minimum security prisons, but the precedent was established that the president would suffer no consequences for his criminal actions.
Ronald Reagan illegally sold weapons to a state sponsor of terrorism in order to fund a secret war in Central America, subverting both the law and the Constitution. (Presidents aren't supposed to have funds available that don't ultimately come from Congress.) Following the Nixon precedent Reagan was let off scot free but for a while it looked like his advisors would follow Ehrlichman and Haldeman to the federal slam. Then George H. W. Bush, Reagan's successor and possible Iran-Contra co-conspirator, pardoned everyone on his way out the door in December 1992, establishing the precedent that not only was the president immune to consequences, his top advisors were too.
George W. Bush lied America into an unnecessary war and ran a bunch of secret torture prisons (plus one non-secret torture prison). Saying it bluntly makes it sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, but that's what happened. Once Barack Obama got elected he said the country needed to "look forward, not backward", meaning not only that the president and his advisors were immune from any consequences for their actions but that no one was even going to investigate what those actions were.
Given all this, is it any wonder that Trump believes he can act with impunity? We've reached a point where people like @ECraigR are arguing that it's somehow wrong or improper that a president* suffer any legal consequences for using violence in an attempt to overthrow Congress, overthrow the Constitution, and reverse an election he lost (bigly). This is literally one of the biggest fears of the Framers of the U.S. Constitution, that a demagogic president would perform an autogolpe. They're essentially following Nixon's line, that if the president* does it, it's not illegal.
It should also be noted that the U.S. has one of the most draconian legal systems in the developed world. If the U.S. system is willing to sentence a woman to five years in prison for trying to cast a vote she honestly (though mistakenly) thought she was legally entitled to cast then saying Donald Trump shouldn't be held accountable for trying to steal an election (he was on the phone with Senators lobbying them to overturn the electioneven as the Capitol was being invaded) is simply arguing that the rich and powerful aren't subject to the same laws as those who are neither.
Again, you're misreading me. I didn't say it's wrong or improper. I said that it would lead to increased tensions and probably civil war. Again, you're not a 20-something year old. You want to kill your neighbors, then get out there. Don't fucking inflame things so I have to.
No @mousethief and @ECraigR, you've either misread or misunderstood what I've criticised and called the 'pretentious we'.
Anyway, I'm not going to say any more about this on this thread. It's a tangent, material only to the thread's title and not to its actual subject matter.
Cool, because you purposefully misread what I wrote, so I accept your movement away. It's not a tangent and you suck at reading.
<snip>
@ECraigR I recognise the interaction between you and @Enoch has not been going well, but here it has strayed into personal attack. Not in Purgatory, please. Take it to Hell if you need to.
Again, you're misreading me. I didn't say it's wrong or improper. I said that it would lead to increased tensions and probably civil war. Again, you're not a 20-something year old. You want to kill your neighbors, then get out there.
Yeah, I understood you. This is abuser logic. "If you'd just give me/them what I/they want then I/they won't have to hurt you." You're also willing to ignore the pattern of escalating criminality in Republican presidents. If it's okay for Trump to incite a mob to overthrow Congress, what's the next Republican president who loses an election going to feel free to do? Use the military to declare himself dictator for life? The lack of consequences for this kind of elite criminality has already had severe negative effects and you're advocating repeating the cycle.
I do notice that it's only folks on the left who are ever called on to unconditionally capitulate.
Again, you're misreading me. I didn't say it's wrong or improper. I said that it would lead to increased tensions and probably civil war. Again, you're not a 20-something year old. You want to kill your neighbors, then get out there.
Yeah, I understood you. This is abuser logic. "If you'd just give me/them what I/they want then I/they won't have to hurt you." You're also willing to ignore the pattern of escalating criminality in Republican presidents. If it's okay for Trump to incite a mob to overthrow Congress, what's the next Republican president who loses an election going to feel free to do? Use the military to declare himself dictator for life? The lack of consequences for this kind of elite criminality has already had severe negative effects and you're advocating repeating the cycle.
I do notice that it's only folks on the left who are ever called on to unconditionally capitulate.
Again my dude, are you eligible to serve? Are you lifting arms against your neighbor? I'm in my 20s, I'm serving in the war you're egging on. You fucking fight it if you want it, don't make me and my friends die for your grievances.
Are Republicans pieces of shit? Ya, totes, that's been obvious my whole life.
If Trump is prosecuted his followers will mobilize in huge numbers. Capitol police gave directions to the insurrectionists once they got inside. You think they're going away? You think this is ending well? Again, get out and fight, leave me and my friends alone.
If Trump is prosecuted his followers will mobilize in huge numbers. Capitol police gave directions to the insurrectionists once they got inside. You think they're going away? You think this is ending well? Again, get out and fight, leave me and my friends alone.
A suggestion: empty the jails of black folk on minor, non-violent convictions, and fill them up with white folk who are convicted of sedition.
Sorry, but if you think that you and your friends will be left alone by these thugs now, you're going to get a very rude awakening in 5 years time. This doesn't go away with wishful thinking.
And of course, WWII was fought by 20-year olds and against fascism.
If Trump is prosecuted his followers will mobilize in huge numbers. Capitol police gave directions to the insurrectionists once they got inside. You think they're going away? You think this is ending well? Again, get out and fight, leave me and my friends alone.
A suggestion: empty the jails of black folk on minor, non-violent convictions, and fill them up with white folk who are convicted of sedition.
Sorry, but if you think that you and your friends will be left alone by these thugs now, you're going to get a very rude awakening in 5 years time. This doesn't go away with wishful thinking.
And of course, WWII was fought by 20-year olds and against fascism.
Well I agree with your first point entirely.
Again, don't condemn me to fight a war you're not fighting. I respect you a lot, Doc Tor, but you're British. You're not fighting in this war that's brewing. My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, over the age of the mandatory draft, and so stands to not kill their neighbor or lose their life. Don't make me fight for your revenge. I dislike Trump as much as the rest of you, but what's a theoretical to you all has practical consequences for me and my friends.
Except your prediction of civil war is not supported by evidence. Plus, in the event of a violent insurrection by far right militias there would be a draft rather than activation of National Guard units, followed by reserves and active duty units stationed on home bases and finally the recall of troops stationed overseas. A draft would be hugely ineffective because the division in the US, while regional, are not wholly so. A draft in deep blue states would still pick up a whole host of redcaps and nazis. The far right militias are effective at murdering unarmed civilians but without support from the military they would get nowhere.
Ignoring Trump won't make the redcaps disappear, it will simply embolden their next demagogue to do more and worse. At that point you really will be faced with civil war or surrender.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, over the age of the mandatory draft, and so stands to not kill their neighbor or lose their life. Don't make me fight for your revenge. I dislike Trump as much as the rest of you, but what's a theoretical to you all has practical consequences for me and my friends.
Who's advocating for a war? You may be convinced that prosecution would certainly (sigh) lead to war, but it's wrong to assume that everyone else must also be (secretly?) convinced of it and therefore advocating war.
And how would you know the ages of all those who advocate Trump's prosecution, and why they're doing it? You think all young people are perfectly fine with him skating away with no consequences, encouraging his followers to escalate their attacks?
Again, don't condemn me to fight a war you're not fighting. I respect you a lot, Doc Tor, but you're British. You're not fighting in this war that's brewing.
[ Berlinda ] Nibo said she unwittingly found herself in the midst of Wednesday’s pro-Trump demonstration in downtown Los Angeles, where she was accosted and assaulted. Parts of the melee were captured in photos and video that were posted to social media, and the Los Angeles Police Department is looking into the battery as a hate crime.
<snip>
People began to break away from the crowd and follow her. Then the taunts began, she said.
“Do you know who Joe Biden is?”
At first, she tried to "play stupid," she said. No, she didn’t know Biden — who's that?
“Did you vote for Donald Trump?” another asked, according to Raquel Natalicchio, an L.A.-based photojournalist who said she started protectively trailing Nibo when she saw her walking alone past the protesters.
<snip>
The jeers continued as more people joined the crowd that was stalking her, so Nibo responded: “I literally said, ‘Let’s move on,' and then I moved on and moved away.”
The racial slurs started coming, she recalled, then chants of “White lives matter.” Nibo said she flipped off the group and kept walking.
“I'm just thinking, like, wow, I am literally being targeted right now because I am the only Black girl here walking around, and to them I am easy prey because I'm a girl,” Nibo said.
<snip>
Someone shoved her from behind. Another man knocked her phone out of her hand, scratching her face in the process.
Then a woman reached up and grabbed her long, wavy mahogany wig — a brand-new hairpiece Nibo wore for the first time Wednesday in celebration of the new year — and tore it off.
Nibo said she punched the woman in the face.
A video posted later showed the woman in the photo, holding a Trump flag in one hand and Nibo's wig in another: "I did that," she boasted. "I did the first scalping of the new civil war." The crowd around her roared in cheers.
The jabs to Nibo came rapidly. A hit to her shoulder. Pepper spray streamed into her face.
“You know the scenes in cartoons when the villagers were coming at you with pitchforks and fire and all that? Literally, I thought that was it,” she said. ”I’m going to be on the front page: a young African American girl has been beaten to death on the streets of downtown L.A.”
Soon, a burly man came from behind and held Nibo, strapping her arms to her sides so she couldn’t move. In photographs taken by Natalicchio, a person sprays Nibo in the face while the man holds her.
“I'm thinking I'm dead right here, these people are trying to kill me,” she said. “For the life of me, I can’t figure out why. These people don’t know me. I don’t know you people. Why are you so angry?”
The whole idea that if you don't bother Trump's supporters they'll leave you alone and you won't have to fight them doesn't work so well if you're not white.
Except your prediction of civil war is not supported by evidence. Plus, in the event of a violent insurrection by far right militias there would be a draft rather than activation of National Guard units, followed by reserves and active duty units stationed on home bases and finally the recall of troops stationed overseas. A draft would be hugely ineffective because the division in the US, while regional, are not wholly so. A draft in deep blue states would still pick up a whole host of redcaps and nazis. The far right militias are effective at murdering unarmed civilians but without support from the military they would get nowhere.
Ignoring Trump won't make the redcaps disappear, it will simply embolden their next demagogue to do more and worse. At that point you really will be faced with civil war or surrender.
They stormed the capitol, have been fighting against the government for years, and are actively planning a Second American Revolution on twitter, parler, and gab. What do you mean no evidence? Their people have butchered schoolchildren, church parishioners, and regular civilians. What do you mean no evidence? Almost all of the domestic atrocities committed on American land since the 1990s have been committed by people with links to the far right. What do you think they're going to do when their God Emperor Trump is indicted for sedition against the Deep State?
I respect you immensely Arethosemyfeet, but you're Scottish, right? you fight this fucking war. I'm getting drafted for this war that's brewing. I am not going to kill my friends and neighbors. Don't make me and my friends fight a civil war very few of us want to engage in.
And, the far right militias do have the support of the military. We're so deeply fucked you can't begin to imagine. But I'm not killing my neighbors and friends, and if people decide to do so it should be people my age who are actually fighting the war. (They'll still be wrong, but better than noncombatants deciding to fight a war.)
Again, don't condemn me to fight a war you're not fighting. I respect you a lot, Doc Tor, but you're British. You're not fighting in this war that's brewing.
[ Berlinda ] Nibo said she unwittingly found herself in the midst of Wednesday’s pro-Trump demonstration in downtown Los Angeles, where she was accosted and assaulted. Parts of the melee were captured in photos and video that were posted to social media, and the Los Angeles Police Department is looking into the battery as a hate crime.
<snip>
People began to break away from the crowd and follow her. Then the taunts began, she said.
“Do you know who Joe Biden is?”
At first, she tried to "play stupid," she said. No, she didn’t know Biden — who's that?
“Did you vote for Donald Trump?” another asked, according to Raquel Natalicchio, an L.A.-based photojournalist who said she started protectively trailing Nibo when she saw her walking alone past the protesters.
<snip>
The jeers continued as more people joined the crowd that was stalking her, so Nibo responded: “I literally said, ‘Let’s move on,' and then I moved on and moved away.”
The racial slurs started coming, she recalled, then chants of “White lives matter.” Nibo said she flipped off the group and kept walking.
“I'm just thinking, like, wow, I am literally being targeted right now because I am the only Black girl here walking around, and to them I am easy prey because I'm a girl,” Nibo said.
<snip>
Someone shoved her from behind. Another man knocked her phone out of her hand, scratching her face in the process.
Then a woman reached up and grabbed her long, wavy mahogany wig — a brand-new hairpiece Nibo wore for the first time Wednesday in celebration of the new year — and tore it off.
Nibo said she punched the woman in the face.
A video posted later showed the woman in the photo, holding a Trump flag in one hand and Nibo's wig in another: "I did that," she boasted. "I did the first scalping of the new civil war." The crowd around her roared in cheers.
The jabs to Nibo came rapidly. A hit to her shoulder. Pepper spray streamed into her face.
“You know the scenes in cartoons when the villagers were coming at you with pitchforks and fire and all that? Literally, I thought that was it,” she said. ”I’m going to be on the front page: a young African American girl has been beaten to death on the streets of downtown L.A.”
Soon, a burly man came from behind and held Nibo, strapping her arms to her sides so she couldn’t move. In photographs taken by Natalicchio, a person sprays Nibo in the face while the man holds her.
“I'm thinking I'm dead right here, these people are trying to kill me,” she said. “For the life of me, I can’t figure out why. These people don’t know me. I don’t know you people. Why are you so angry?”
The whole idea that if you don't bother Trump's supporters they'll leave you alone and you won't have to fight them doesn't work so well if you're not white.
I don't understand how that link identifies me as white, it's paywalled.
So only white people don't want to fight a war? Croesus, I respect you immensely as well and have never determined whether or not you're American.
Inconsequential, because I'm quite confident you're not fighting in this war you want. Again, buy a rifle and ammunition and get out there if you want a war. I'M NOT DOING IT AND DON'T MAKE MY FRIENDS DO IT.
Furthermore, I've never heard any of my minority friends advocating for war. They hate Republicans and think they should be shamed to suicide, but none of them have advocated for war, because they'd be fighting it and no one who's anything but far right wants a civil war. (And accelerationists but they're weird and small).
If Trump is prosecuted his followers will mobilize in huge numbers. Capitol police gave directions to the insurrectionists once they got inside. You think they're going away? You think this is ending well? Again, get out and fight, leave me and my friends alone.
A suggestion: empty the jails of black folk on minor, non-violent convictions, and fill them up with white folk who are convicted of sedition.
Sorry, but if you think that you and your friends will be left alone by these thugs now, you're going to get a very rude awakening in 5 years time. This doesn't go away with wishful thinking.
And of course, WWII was fought by 20-year olds and against fascism.
Well I agree with your first point entirely.
Again, don't condemn me to fight a war you're not fighting. I respect you a lot, Doc Tor, but you're British. You're not fighting in this war that's brewing. My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, over the age of the mandatory draft, and so stands to not kill their neighbor or lose their life. Don't make me fight for your revenge. I dislike Trump as much as the rest of you, but what's a theoretical to you all has practical consequences for me and my friends.
If you don't de-nazify, you're left with Nazis. There's a solid core who need be prosecuted. There's a softer group who went along with it. You need to deal harshly with some of them to set an example for the others. Trumpy himself? Dunno. Is there a way of sanctioning him with out charging him?
As for the "divine right of presidents" it really that you elect a king for a term? Sounds like it if they're immune from prosecution. What if they did in fact shoot someone?
You don't get rid of the Dane by paying the Danegeld.
While I understand your concerns, I think the counterargument is that not prosecuting Trump is just storing up trouble for later. There may be a risk that prosecuting Trump now will lead to civil war; but not prosecuting Trump now will certainly lead to either civil war or a full scale authoritarian coup later on.
History looks rather more kindly on Lincoln who 'provoked' the Civil War than on his predecessors who tried to avert it and just put it off.
Just at the moment parts of the US right seem to be trying to distance themselves from Trump : now is the opportunity to reassert normal standards, which normal standards include, people do not incite coups with impunity.
Do you have a better idea? Or is there any reason to think the problem will just go away if nothing is done?
@ECraigR - why are you advocating keeping Donald Trump as president?
You may say you're not, but if I decide that's the inescapable conclusion of not prosecuting him, it seems that by your own rules I should feel free to ascribe that motive to you no matter what you say.
@ECraigR - why are you advocating keeping Donald Trump as president?
You may say you're not, but if I decide that's the inescapable conclusion of not prosecuting him, it seems that by your own rules I should feel free to ascribe that motive to you no matter what you say.
I don't understand the logic you're ascribing to me, so I'll need proposition and conclusion to determine if you're right. Very well you may be right and I'm wrong, I just don't know what you're saying.
I think we can agree that if the Department of Justice, or whoever decides these things, doesn't think it can prove the case beyond reasonable doubt it shouldn't prosecute.
(Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any reasonable person of average intelligence would know that the consequences of my client's actions would be violence and sedition. But I put it to you, is my client a reasonable person of average intelligence?)
You don't get rid of the Dane by paying the Danegeld.
While I understand your concerns, I think the counterargument is that not prosecuting Trump is just storing up trouble for later. There may be a risk that prosecuting Trump now will lead to civil war; but not prosecuting Trump now will certainly lead to either civil war or a full scale authoritarian coup later on.
History looks rather more kindly on Lincoln who 'provoked' the Civil War than on his predecessors who tried to avert it and just put it off.
Just at the moment parts of the US right seem to be trying to distance themselves from Trump : now is the opportunity to reassert normal standards, which normal standards include, people do not incite coups with impunity.
Do you have a better idea? Or is there any reason to think the problem will just go away if nothing is done?
Again, Dafyd, you're Scottish. Come and fight this war if you want, but I and my friends aren't doing it. I do think who decides who goes to war should be left to the ones actually fighting because all of my friends who volunteered in 2008-20012 are pretty fucked up right now.
Lincoln didn't 'provoke' the civil war; it was in the making for a decade or more beforehand. Battle Cry of Freedom documents that quite well, and even Shelby Foote's history of the civil war does. Lincoln served as president during the civil war and did the best he could. Not perfect, but adequate.
I don't have a better idea, and I don't think the problem will go away. I just think prosecuting Trump will lead to open civil war.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-old son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Also, I'm not advocating for Trump to remain president.
Ah, but if I think that allowing him to go free means he'd remain (or be reinstated) as president, I get to say that's what you advocate.
Just like you keep accusing people of advocating war when they say they only want to see Trump prosecuted.
Admittedly my ascription of civil war to those who are advocating for Trump to be prosecuted is hyperbolic because right now there is no war.
I would like to see Trump impeached and convicted, and I think that would diffuse things. I would like to see Trump removed via the 25th amendment and I think that would diffuse things.
I think enough Republicans cleaning the shit from their teeth and supporting a congressional action condemning the president would do a lot. Not a perfect amount, but a lot.
We live in a shitty system where Trump can be reelected in 2024. I disagree, but I can't change the system.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-old son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Except your prediction of civil war is not supported by evidence. Plus, in the event of a violent insurrection by far right militias there would be a draft rather than activation of National Guard units, followed by reserves and active duty units stationed on home bases and finally the recall of troops stationed overseas. A draft would be hugely ineffective because the division in the US, while regional, are not wholly so. A draft in deep blue states would still pick up a whole host of redcaps and nazis. The far right militias are effective at murdering unarmed civilians but without support from the military they would get nowhere.
Ignoring Trump won't make the redcaps disappear, it will simply embolden their next demagogue to do more and worse. At that point you really will be faced with civil war or surrender.
They stormed the capitol, have been fighting against the government for years, and are actively planning a Second American Revolution on twitter, parler, and gab. What do you mean no evidence? Their people have butchered schoolchildren, church parishioners, and regular civilians. What do you mean no evidence? Almost all of the domestic atrocities committed on American land since the 1990s have been committed by people with links to the far right. What do you think they're going to do when their God Emperor Trump is indicted for sedition against the Deep State?
I respect you immensely Arethosemyfeet, but you're Scottish, right? you fight this fucking war. I'm getting drafted for this war that's brewing. I am not going to kill my friends and neighbors. Don't make me and my friends fight a civil war very few of us want to engage in.
Terrorism =/= civil war. We endured 30 years of murders in the UK as a result of "the troubles". There is a long and troubled path from "terrorism and street violence" to "civil war", particularly in a mature democratic(ish) country. I don't for one moment envy the position the US and its saner citizens are in right now, but I'm suggesting you're inflating the risk associated with putting Trump where he belongs while ignoring the greater risk of not doing so. I know you're scared, you've every right to be, but you're fixating on this one thing - not prosecuting Trump - as if that's going to magically calm things down. If a civil war were really in the offing it could just as easily start with trying to free the Capitol terrorists from prison. Don't forget, also, that in less than 2 weeks the DOJ will be being rebuilt to actually pursue, y'know, justice. There will be a CiC aware of the responsibilities of office.
Also, I'm not advocating for Trump to remain president.
Ah, but if I think that allowing him to go free means he'd remain (or be reinstated) as president, I get to say that's what you advocate.
Just like you keep accusing people of advocating war when they say they only want to see Trump prosecuted.
Admittedly my ascription of civil war to those who are advocating for Trump to be prosecuted is hyperbolic because right now there is no war.
Well then I recommend you stop doing it, because it's both unpersuasive and offensive.
I would like to see Trump impeached and convicted, and I think that would diffuse things. I would like to see Trump removed via the 25th amendment and I think that would diffuse things.
I see absolutely no reason why anyone should suppose these things would be less likely to cause a civil war than a criminal prosecution.
I think enough Republicans cleaning the shit from their teeth and supporting a congressional action condemning the president would do a lot. Not a perfect amount, but a lot.
Why wouldn't that make his followers just more angry and likely to cause a civil war?
Inconsequential, because I'm quite confident you're not fighting in this war you want. Again, buy a rifle and ammunition and get out there if you want a war. I'M NOT DOING IT AND DON'T MAKE MY FRIENDS DO IT.
I say this with all sincerity: you have no idea what a civil war is. Not how it starts, not how it's fought, and not how it ends.
If you think you have a choice to sit it out, then you've already chosen a side - and trust me, that's not the side of light. Your friends and your neighbours are going to die anyway, and maybe you eventually, when they come for you.
(And yes, I'm British, and I've been opposing fascism my whole adult life.)
Except your prediction of civil war is not supported by evidence. Plus, in the event of a violent insurrection by far right militias there would be a draft rather than activation of National Guard units, followed by reserves and active duty units stationed on home bases and finally the recall of troops stationed overseas. A draft would be hugely ineffective because the division in the US, while regional, are not wholly so. A draft in deep blue states would still pick up a whole host of redcaps and nazis. The far right militias are effective at murdering unarmed civilians but without support from the military they would get nowhere.
Ignoring Trump won't make the redcaps disappear, it will simply embolden their next demagogue to do more and worse. At that point you really will be faced with civil war or surrender.
They stormed the capitol, have been fighting against the government for years, and are actively planning a Second American Revolution on twitter, parler, and gab. What do you mean no evidence? Their people have butchered schoolchildren, church parishioners, and regular civilians. What do you mean no evidence? Almost all of the domestic atrocities committed on American land since the 1990s have been committed by people with links to the far right. What do you think they're going to do when their God Emperor Trump is indicted for sedition against the Deep State?
I respect you immensely Arethosemyfeet, but you're Scottish, right? you fight this fucking war. I'm getting drafted for this war that's brewing. I am not going to kill my friends and neighbors. Don't make me and my friends fight a civil war very few of us want to engage in.
Terrorism =/= civil war. We endured 30 years of murders in the UK as a result of "the troubles". There is a long and troubled path from "terrorism and street violence" to "civil war", particularly in a mature democratic(ish) country. I don't for one moment envy the position the US and its saner citizens are in right now, but I'm suggesting you're inflating the risk associated with putting Trump where he belongs while ignoring the greater risk of not doing so. I know you're scared, you've every right to be, but you're fixating on this one thing - not prosecuting Trump - as if that's going to magically calm things down. If a civil war were really in the offing it could just as easily start with trying to free the Capitol terrorists from prison. Don't forget, also, that in less than 2 weeks the DOJ will be being rebuilt to actually pursue, y'know, justice. There will be a CiC aware of the responsibilities of office.
I won't tell you your history because that's rude and I may be wrong, but I will say all the histories of The Troubles I've read identify it as a civil war. Perhaps this is an American thing. I know it wasn't as bloody as the American Civil War, but shit was still fucked and you have my deep sympathy and prayers for having lived through that shit show. From my reading, The Troubles was one bad Sunday away from a full born Civil War. And, I'd prefer The Troubles never happen in America, which I believe will happen if Trump is prosecuted.
I am scared, absolutely. I've built a solid academic life from being born to a construction worker. I don't want that to go away, and I don't want to sacrifice that for a war of grievances. And I won't. The Second Civil War could start at anything, true, but we don't need to encourage it.
Lol, it is a mark of what previous posters have said that this website is a silo when I'm defending myself against three other posters with no backup for not wanting to die in the war they're advocating for.
Also, I'm not advocating for Trump to remain president.
Ah, but if I think that allowing him to go free means he'd remain (or be reinstated) as president, I get to say that's what you advocate.
Just like you keep accusing people of advocating war when they say they only want to see Trump prosecuted.
Admittedly my ascription of civil war to those who are advocating for Trump to be prosecuted is hyperbolic because right now there is no war.
Well then I recommend you stop doing it, because it's both unpersuasive and offensive.
I would like to see Trump impeached and convicted, and I think that would diffuse things. I would like to see Trump removed via the 25th amendment and I think that would diffuse things.
I see absolutely no reason why anyone should suppose these things would be less likely to cause a civil war than a criminal prosecution.
I think enough Republicans cleaning the shit from their teeth and supporting a congressional action condemning the president would do a lot. Not a perfect amount, but a lot.
Why wouldn't that make his followers just more angry and likely to cause a civil war?
My dude, do you have kids? Are they 20 or 30? Are they dying for this war you want? I'M DYING FOR THIS WAR YOU WANT. and I'm not fucking doing it. Choke on Trump's cock for all I care, I'm not dying for you war, even though it may be well justified,
Inconsequential, because I'm quite confident you're not fighting in this war you want. Again, buy a rifle and ammunition and get out there if you want a war. I'M NOT DOING IT AND DON'T MAKE MY FRIENDS DO IT.
I say this with all sincerity: you have no idea what a civil war is. Not how it starts, not how it's fought, and not how it ends.
If you think you have a choice to sit it out, then you've already chosen a side - and trust me, that's not the side of light. Your friends and your neighbours are going to die anyway, and maybe you eventually, when they come for you.
(And yes, I'm British, and I've been opposing fascism my whole adult life.)
I know dude, and you're right, and I don't want to find out. I don't want horror, I don't want death, and I don't want to kill my neighbor and I won't.
My dude, what side did you support for Ireland? How is choosing the side of NOT WAR against the side of light? If you think that choosing NOT DEATH is against the Gospel then you need to read it again, my love.
You mean the last civil war that didn't solve anything for a hundred years? Admittedly, Reconstruction probably could have solved stuff if it had been adhered to, but it wasn't.
As Crœsos brings this up upthread, I'll return to it. I wasn't referring to the Civil War as such, but rather the events in 1877 which brought Reconstruction to an end. It seems to me that this is the same flavour of compromise as you are proposing here, with exactly the same calculus, throwing exactly the same set of people to the wolves.
Furthermore, I've never heard any of my minority friends advocating for war. They hate Republicans and think they should be shamed to suicide, but none of them have advocated for war
You have previously said that that Trump supporters are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them", so presumably then #BLM would be an intolerable provocation wouldn't it? Yet that movement finds quite strong support among minorities.
And, the far right militias do have the support of the military. We're so deeply fucked you can't begin to imagine.
If the US is that deeply fucked then presumably engaging with the situation academically or artisically would/could also be intolerable provocation, and should therefore be avoided at all costs (because the alternative is far worse).
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Lol, it is a mark of what previous posters have said that this website is a silo when I'm defending myself against three other posters with no backup for not wanting to die in the war they're advocating for.
Also, I'm not advocating for Trump to remain president.
Ah, but if I think that allowing him to go free means he'd remain (or be reinstated) as president, I get to say that's what you advocate.
Just like you keep accusing people of advocating war when they say they only want to see Trump prosecuted.
Admittedly my ascription of civil war to those who are advocating for Trump to be prosecuted is hyperbolic because right now there is no war.
Well then I recommend you stop doing it, because it's both unpersuasive and offensive.
I would like to see Trump impeached and convicted, and I think that would diffuse things. I would like to see Trump removed via the 25th amendment and I think that would diffuse things.
I see absolutely no reason why anyone should suppose these things would be less likely to cause a civil war than a criminal prosecution.
I think enough Republicans cleaning the shit from their teeth and supporting a congressional action condemning the president would do a lot. Not a perfect amount, but a lot.
Why wouldn't that make his followers just more angry and likely to cause a civil war?
My dude, do you have kids? Are they 20 or 30? Are they dying for this war you want? I'M DYING FOR THIS WAR YOU WANT. and I'm not fucking doing it. Choke on Trump's cock for all I care, I'm not dying for you war, even though it may be well justified,
You're not DYING of anything. And please stop advocating for President Trump For Life, will you? Sheesh.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
No, ECraigR, YOU are advocating for Civil War, by appeasement. Just like Chamberlin's appeasement of Hitler helped bring on the Second World War, your appeasement of Trump and his thugs would bring on another Civil War.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
You’re getting wrong that I have advocated for civil war. I have not done so.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
No, ECraigR, YOU are advocating for Civil War, by appeasement. Just like Chamberlin's appeasement of Hitler helped bring on the Second World War, your appeasement of Trump and his thugs would bring on another Civil War.
No, Nicole, I'm not advocating for civil war.
Are you fighting this war? Are you killing your neighbor?
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
You’re getting wrong that I have advocated for civil war. I have not done so.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
You are advocating a course that will take us down a very dark road, ECraigR, leading to massive death and destruction. The only thing that can prevent it is strong action now. That's just reality.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
You’re getting wrong that I have advocated for civil war. I have not done so.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
What do you think I am advocating? And on what exactly that have I said in this thread are you basing your conclusion about what I am advocating?
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
You are advocating a course that will take us down a very dark road, ECraigR, leading to massive death and destruction. The only thing that can prevent it is strong action now. That's just reality.
Nicole, how will prosecuting Trump solve anything? Pray tell, how?
@ECraigR - just go and read any competent history of 1930s Germany, then come back and tell us that not locking Hitler and his goons up after the Beer Hall putsch was absolutely the right idea.
@NicoleMR has it exactly right. You're saying you don't want a (second) civil war, and yet you're advocating a course of action that is far more likely to lead to one. History repeats itself because no one listens.
My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
You’re getting wrong that I have advocated for civil war. I have not done so.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
What do you think I am advocating? And on what exactly that have I said in this thread are you basing your conclusion about what I am advocating?
What am I advocating? I'm adovacting don't kill babes
Comments
yeah
Cool, because you purposefully misread what I wrote, so I accept your movement away. It's not a tangent and you suck at reading.
Again, you're misreading me. I didn't say it's wrong or improper. I said that it would lead to increased tensions and probably civil war. Again, you're not a 20-something year old. You want to kill your neighbors, then get out there. Don't fucking inflame things so I have to.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
I'll hold my fingers and not be so brittle moving forward.
Thanks.
Yeah, I understood you. This is abuser logic. "If you'd just give me/them what I/they want then I/they won't have to hurt you." You're also willing to ignore the pattern of escalating criminality in Republican presidents. If it's okay for Trump to incite a mob to overthrow Congress, what's the next Republican president who loses an election going to feel free to do? Use the military to declare himself dictator for life? The lack of consequences for this kind of elite criminality has already had severe negative effects and you're advocating repeating the cycle.
I do notice that it's only folks on the left who are ever called on to unconditionally capitulate.
Again my dude, are you eligible to serve? Are you lifting arms against your neighbor? I'm in my 20s, I'm serving in the war you're egging on. You fucking fight it if you want it, don't make me and my friends die for your grievances.
Are Republicans pieces of shit? Ya, totes, that's been obvious my whole life.
If Trump is prosecuted his followers will mobilize in huge numbers. Capitol police gave directions to the insurrectionists once they got inside. You think they're going away? You think this is ending well? Again, get out and fight, leave me and my friends alone.
A suggestion: empty the jails of black folk on minor, non-violent convictions, and fill them up with white folk who are convicted of sedition.
Sorry, but if you think that you and your friends will be left alone by these thugs now, you're going to get a very rude awakening in 5 years time. This doesn't go away with wishful thinking.
And of course, WWII was fought by 20-year olds and against fascism.
Well I agree with your first point entirely.
Again, don't condemn me to fight a war you're not fighting. I respect you a lot, Doc Tor, but you're British. You're not fighting in this war that's brewing. My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, over the age of the mandatory draft, and so stands to not kill their neighbor or lose their life. Don't make me fight for your revenge. I dislike Trump as much as the rest of you, but what's a theoretical to you all has practical consequences for me and my friends.
Ignoring Trump won't make the redcaps disappear, it will simply embolden their next demagogue to do more and worse. At that point you really will be faced with civil war or surrender.
Who's advocating for a war? You may be convinced that prosecution would certainly (sigh) lead to war, but it's wrong to assume that everyone else must also be (secretly?) convinced of it and therefore advocating war.
And how would you know the ages of all those who advocate Trump's prosecution, and why they're doing it? You think all young people are perfectly fine with him skating away with no consequences, encouraging his followers to escalate their attacks?
I'm guessing you're white.
The whole idea that if you don't bother Trump's supporters they'll leave you alone and you won't have to fight them doesn't work so well if you're not white.
They stormed the capitol, have been fighting against the government for years, and are actively planning a Second American Revolution on twitter, parler, and gab. What do you mean no evidence? Their people have butchered schoolchildren, church parishioners, and regular civilians. What do you mean no evidence? Almost all of the domestic atrocities committed on American land since the 1990s have been committed by people with links to the far right. What do you think they're going to do when their God Emperor Trump is indicted for sedition against the Deep State?
I respect you immensely Arethosemyfeet, but you're Scottish, right? you fight this fucking war. I'm getting drafted for this war that's brewing. I am not going to kill my friends and neighbors. Don't make me and my friends fight a civil war very few of us want to engage in.
I don't understand how that link identifies me as white, it's paywalled.
So only white people don't want to fight a war? Croesus, I respect you immensely as well and have never determined whether or not you're American.
Inconsequential, because I'm quite confident you're not fighting in this war you want. Again, buy a rifle and ammunition and get out there if you want a war. I'M NOT DOING IT AND DON'T MAKE MY FRIENDS DO IT.
Furthermore, I've never heard any of my minority friends advocating for war. They hate Republicans and think they should be shamed to suicide, but none of them have advocated for war, because they'd be fighting it and no one who's anything but far right wants a civil war. (And accelerationists but they're weird and small).
If you don't de-nazify, you're left with Nazis. There's a solid core who need be prosecuted. There's a softer group who went along with it. You need to deal harshly with some of them to set an example for the others. Trumpy himself? Dunno. Is there a way of sanctioning him with out charging him?
As for the "divine right of presidents" it really that you elect a king for a term? Sounds like it if they're immune from prosecution. What if they did in fact shoot someone?
While I understand your concerns, I think the counterargument is that not prosecuting Trump is just storing up trouble for later. There may be a risk that prosecuting Trump now will lead to civil war; but not prosecuting Trump now will certainly lead to either civil war or a full scale authoritarian coup later on.
History looks rather more kindly on Lincoln who 'provoked' the Civil War than on his predecessors who tried to avert it and just put it off.
Just at the moment parts of the US right seem to be trying to distance themselves from Trump : now is the opportunity to reassert normal standards, which normal standards include, people do not incite coups with impunity.
Do you have a better idea? Or is there any reason to think the problem will just go away if nothing is done?
You may say you're not, but if I decide that's the inescapable conclusion of not prosecuting him, it seems that by your own rules I should feel free to ascribe that motive to you no matter what you say.
I don't know how to deal with Trump. I think deplatforming him is one of the best options.
I don't understand the logic you're ascribing to me, so I'll need proposition and conclusion to determine if you're right. Very well you may be right and I'm wrong, I just don't know what you're saying.
I don't believe Trump should be prosecuted, that's different.
Just like you keep accusing people of advocating war when they say they only want to see Trump prosecuted.
(Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any reasonable person of average intelligence would know that the consequences of my client's actions would be violence and sedition. But I put it to you, is my client a reasonable person of average intelligence?)
Again, Dafyd, you're Scottish. Come and fight this war if you want, but I and my friends aren't doing it. I do think who decides who goes to war should be left to the ones actually fighting because all of my friends who volunteered in 2008-20012 are pretty fucked up right now.
Lincoln didn't 'provoke' the civil war; it was in the making for a decade or more beforehand. Battle Cry of Freedom documents that quite well, and even Shelby Foote's history of the civil war does. Lincoln served as president during the civil war and did the best he could. Not perfect, but adequate.
I don't have a better idea, and I don't think the problem will go away. I just think prosecuting Trump will lead to open civil war.
Admittedly my ascription of civil war to those who are advocating for Trump to be prosecuted is hyperbolic because right now there is no war.
I would like to see Trump impeached and convicted, and I think that would diffuse things. I would like to see Trump removed via the 25th amendment and I think that would diffuse things.
I think enough Republicans cleaning the shit from their teeth and supporting a congressional action condemning the president would do a lot. Not a perfect amount, but a lot.
We live in a shitty system where Trump can be reelected in 2024. I disagree, but I can't change the system.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Terrorism =/= civil war. We endured 30 years of murders in the UK as a result of "the troubles". There is a long and troubled path from "terrorism and street violence" to "civil war", particularly in a mature democratic(ish) country. I don't for one moment envy the position the US and its saner citizens are in right now, but I'm suggesting you're inflating the risk associated with putting Trump where he belongs while ignoring the greater risk of not doing so. I know you're scared, you've every right to be, but you're fixating on this one thing - not prosecuting Trump - as if that's going to magically calm things down. If a civil war were really in the offing it could just as easily start with trying to free the Capitol terrorists from prison. Don't forget, also, that in less than 2 weeks the DOJ will be being rebuilt to actually pursue, y'know, justice. There will be a CiC aware of the responsibilities of office.
I say this with all sincerity: you have no idea what a civil war is. Not how it starts, not how it's fought, and not how it ends.
If you think you have a choice to sit it out, then you've already chosen a side - and trust me, that's not the side of light. Your friends and your neighbours are going to die anyway, and maybe you eventually, when they come for you.
(And yes, I'm British, and I've been opposing fascism my whole adult life.)
I won't tell you your history because that's rude and I may be wrong, but I will say all the histories of The Troubles I've read identify it as a civil war. Perhaps this is an American thing. I know it wasn't as bloody as the American Civil War, but shit was still fucked and you have my deep sympathy and prayers for having lived through that shit show. From my reading, The Troubles was one bad Sunday away from a full born Civil War. And, I'd prefer The Troubles never happen in America, which I believe will happen if Trump is prosecuted.
I am scared, absolutely. I've built a solid academic life from being born to a construction worker. I don't want that to go away, and I don't want to sacrifice that for a war of grievances. And I won't. The Second Civil War could start at anything, true, but we don't need to encourage it.
Okay.
My dude, do you have kids? Are they 20 or 30? Are they dying for this war you want? I'M DYING FOR THIS WAR YOU WANT. and I'm not fucking doing it. Choke on Trump's cock for all I care, I'm not dying for you war, even though it may be well justified,
I know dude, and you're right, and I don't want to find out. I don't want horror, I don't want death, and I don't want to kill my neighbor and I won't.
My dude, what side did you support for Ireland? How is choosing the side of NOT WAR against the side of light? If you think that choosing NOT DEATH is against the Gospel then you need to read it again, my love.
As Crœsos brings this up upthread, I'll return to it. I wasn't referring to the Civil War as such, but rather the events in 1877 which brought Reconstruction to an end. It seems to me that this is the same flavour of compromise as you are proposing here, with exactly the same calculus, throwing exactly the same set of people to the wolves.
You have previously said that that Trump supporters are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them", so presumably then #BLM would be an intolerable provocation wouldn't it? Yet that movement finds quite strong support among minorities.
If the US is that deeply fucked then presumably engaging with the situation academically or artisically would/could also be intolerable provocation, and should therefore be avoided at all costs (because the alternative is far worse).
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
No, Nicole, I'm not advocating for civil war.
Are you fighting this war? Are you killing your neighbor?
Shut the fuck up unless you're willing to do so
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Nicole, how will prosecuting Trump solve anything? Pray tell, how?
@NicoleMR has it exactly right. You're saying you don't want a (second) civil war, and yet you're advocating a course of action that is far more likely to lead to one. History repeats itself because no one listens.
What am I advocating? I'm adovacting don't kill babes
You advocate X
I believe (although you do not) that X will lead to Y
Therefore you advocate Y
This is bad logic. Do they not teach thinking in your university?