My whole point is composed of two propositions:
1) Prosecuting President Trump will inflame his supporters to the point of open war, IN MY OPINION.
2) Everyone advocating for this war is 50 or above, . . .
My 23-year-hold son and my 20-year-old daughter—both of whom have followed all of this closely and have strong opinions and concerns about what it means for the future of the country—would likely beg to differ with your second proposition. Daughter and I had this conversation a few nights ago; I (over 50) was the one raising how Biden and others might be considering the effect of “martyrizing” Trump in the eyes of his loyalists, and she was the one arguing why it’s imperative that he be prosecuted.
Okay my dude, you're welcome to receive her flag when she dies in this hypothetical war and she's welcome to die in it.
I live in the North and we're uninclined to Civil War.
You've got babes who can fight it with me, so condemn your babes to death and that's cool. I an't doing it.
Wow. Way to miss the point, and to pretty egregiously and gratuitously ascribe some really serious shit to another shipmate. You are the one who said everyone advocating for the “war”—by which you seem to mean “prosecution of Trump” and what will result from it—is over 50. I gave you the example of two people close to you in age who disagree with what appears to be your assessment.
You ignored my simple counter-example to your (hyperbolic) assertion—and ignored my statement that I, in conversation with my daughter, was presenting a position much closer to yours—and instead went to me condemning my children to death and receiving the flag for my daughter, throwing in a jab at the fact that I’m from the American South and therefore apparently “inclined” to civil war.
You’re scared for what could happen. I get it. We all are. But your response to me was unjustified, unworthy, appalling and very offensive, not to mention a complete misreading of what I said.
Mistakenly? You're advocating for Civil War. What am I getting wrong?
If your kids want to fight, good for them, and no one I know in the great state of New York is willing to wage a civil war. Again, you want your kids in a coffin, you're welcome to watch.
I didn't ignore your statement, you ignored my point about death and destruction.
You’re getting wrong that I have advocated for civil war. I have not done so.
You have mistakenly asserted that my kids want to fight in a war by imposing your view that war is inevitable if Trump is prosecuted on them, without establishing that they concur in your view, or considering the possibility that others might be of the opinion that armed conflict is more likely if he isn’t prosecuted.
And you have twice mistakenly suggested that I would be fine seeing my kids in a coffin, which is totally uncalled for and incredibly offensive. Please stop it!
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
What do you think I am advocating? And on what exactly that have I said in this thread are you basing your conclusion about what I am advocating?
What am I advocating? I'm adovacting don't kill babes
I didn’t ask you what you’re advocating. I asked what you think I’m advocating.
Or to put it another way, you’ve said I’m advocating for Civil War. On what that I have said in this thread do you base the conclusion that I am advocating for Civil War?
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
What am I advocating? I'm adovacting don't kill babes
You are advocating giving people exactly what they want because they are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them".
No, I'm not. I'm advocating not making a civil war unless you @chrisstiles are willing to fight it
If they are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them" (your quote) then the only choice if you want peace is to appease them in any way they demand.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
you don't want your kids in a coffin THEN DONT TELL ME TO GO TO WAR WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
I believe war IS inevitable based on what you're advocating.
You advocate X
I believe (although you do not) that X will lead to Y
Therefore you advocate Y
This is bad logic. Do they not teach thinking in your university?
We get taught real logic in my university.
Again, I respect you immensely mousethief, but you're off.
You could at least pay me the respect of saying how. And I definitely got taught real logic, over and over. I've even taught it myself at university. So enough of that.
No, ECraigR, YOU are advocating for Civil War, by appeasement. Just like Chamberlin's appeasement of Hitler helped bring on the Second World War, your appeasement of Trump and his thugs would bring on another Civil War.
No, Nicole, I'm not advocating for civil war.
Are you fighting this war? Are you killing your neighbor?
Shut the fuck up unless you're willing to do so
@ECraigR Purgatory is a forum for reasoned argument, not for telling posters who disagree with you to shut up in a manner that amounts to a personal attack. If you have to do that take it to Hell.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
YOU FIGHT THE WAR THEN.
But you see, the thing is - are you ready for this? - I don't think that prosecuting Trump would lead to a civil war! So I suppose you might say I'm denying the premise of your argument (such as it is.) And since I don't think it makes a civil war any more likely, your increasingly emphatic statements aren't really having the effect you desire.
In fact, I think seeing Trump tried, convicted, and jailed could very well have a salutary effect on his followers, who would have a harder time believing in his miraculous comeback from a cell in the prison Manafort was sent to. It's hard to avoid looking like a loser in a prison uniform.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
YOU FIGHT THE WAR THEN.
Go for a walk, blow something up in a video game, pound a punch bag, something. You're winding yourself up more and more to no good end.
But you see, the thing is - are you ready for this? - I don't think that prosecuting Trump would lead to a civil war! So I suppose you might say I'm denying the premise of your argument (such as it is.) And since I don't think it makes a civil war any more likely, your increasingly emphatic statements aren't really having the effect you desire.
In fact, I think seeing Trump tried, convicted, and jailed could very well have a salutary effect on his followers, who would have a harder time believing in his miraculous comeback from a cell in the prison Manafort was sent to. It's hard to avoid looking like a loser in a prison uniform.
I'm reminded of a certain kind of religious "discussion".
Christian: . . . so that's why Hell is so terrible and I'm here to offer you the chance to be saved from it.
Non-Believer: But Hell isn't real.
Christian: I don't think you've truly grasped how totally terrible Hell is. You see . . . [ lengthy description of fire, brimstone, pitchforks, muzak, etc. ] . . . so you see why it's imperative to convert and avoid this terrible fate!
Non-Believer: Yes that does sound really bad, but it doesn't exist.
Christian: I still don't think you've fully understood the awfulness of Hell. Let me give you some even more lurid details. . . .
@Crœsos first class as ever. But. Is there something about us as a monkey that DOESN'T want our chiefs to get banged up? That can take no pleasure in the shameful deaths of Hussein and worse Gaddafi. Evil bastards though they were. (Ceausescu now...). I will die before it's known whether we should have hung Edward VIII. A certain historian told me personally that they'd have done so if they could. Why couldn't they? We?
Again, I think you're making a ludicrous jump from "prosecuting Trump" to "kill your neighbor."
If these rioters are so terribly dangerous, why did they stop? Why didn't certifying Biden's election cause a civil war? And what about the inauguration - won't they be enraged to see anyone other than Trump declared president? Why aren't you certain that will cause a civil war?
This isn't over yet ... It didn't just start on Wednesday or even last November ... It has been building for a long time ...
Since the slow erosion of "separate but equal" education and other facilities under Jim Crow took a hundred a years to become significant?
And in your irrepressible desire for appeasement, @ECraigR, you condemn us all to President Trump For Life. [Personal abuse redacted.] So I guess we're even!
lol, i don’t even know where to begin with how wrong you are. Not prosecuting Trump is not appeasement, it’s a deterrent from civil war. You think I’m wrong about war, then fine, again, You’ve not indicated you or your people are fighting the theoretic war, so idk what you’re getting at.
Trump’s people go home meekly after they’ve been charged? in what world
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
YOU FIGHT THE WAR THEN.
Go for a walk, blow something up in a video game, pound a punch bag, something. You're winding yourself up more and more to no good end.
Oh I just saw this: rude and pedantic. Why doesn’t this get flagged for a personal attack @BroJames ?
lol, i don’t even know where to begin with how wrong you are. Not prosecuting Trump is not appeasement, it’s a deterrent from civil war.
That's almost literally the dictionary definition of appeasement. (Except a deterrent is usually a threat of punishment, not an extortion payment.)
You think I’m wrong about war, then fine, again, You’ve not indicated you or your people are fighting the theoretic war, so idk what you’re getting at.
Trump’s people go home meekly after they’ve been charged? in what world
Trump’s people go home meekly after he's been impeached? in what world
Trump’s people go home meekly after he's been removed by the 25th Amendment? in what world
What's the difference?
Trump's followers already kill people, they are an extremist movement that have collected around him but predate his political ascent. If your definition of a civil war is the troubles (as per the conflict in the uk) - that has already been happening in the USA for sometime.
White supremacist and Christian extremist violence has killed hundreds, if not thousands, in the US this century already. From Timothy McVeigh to the Pulse nightclub, to murders under cover of uniform like that of George Floyd.
It is masked in public discourse by referring each time to a lone wolf, or a bad apple.
But functionally, being inspired by qanon is no different to being inspired by Daesh. Nor am I convinced that calling yourself the proud boys, the bugaloo boys or the kkk, and putting on a red hat or a white hood, is much different to putting on a brown shirt or a black one and marching for your leader.
It seems to me that allowing Trump to go free and run for office in 2024 is the greatest threat and likely cause of a Civil War we have at the moment. It seems to me that ECraigR is the one who is advocating a course that will kill thousands in a bloody conflict.
It's revenge politics.
Prosecuting Trump will lead to war. You want it, get out there shoot.
How is impeachment (which you advocated) not also revenge politics? Seems like it would be even more of an affront, since all the judges would be politicians. If you think criminal prosecution would lead to civil war, I can't see how you could possibly approve of impeachment.
If Trump is barred by the majority of Republicans then that sends a message.
Yeah, the message it sends is "I don't want to be an elected member of the Republican party anymore. Please come challenge me in the next primary and besiege my house and family."
Again, I don't think you're young, so you want a war, get out there and shoot.
Please stop advocating appeasement and President Trump For Life. I really don't think that's best for our country.
YOU FIGHT THE WAR THEN.
Go for a walk, blow something up in a video game, pound a punch bag, something. You're winding yourself up more and more to no good end.
Oh I just saw this: rude and pedantic. Why doesn’t this get flagged for a personal attack @BroJames ?
I'm sorry if it came across as rude. It was entirely genuine concern for your wellbeing. It looks/looked to me like you're catastrophising and I've been down that road oh-so-often and it's not a good one.
White supremacist and Christian extremist violence has killed hundreds, if not thousands, in the US this century already. From Timothy McVeigh to the Pulse nightclub, to murders under cover of uniform like that of George Floyd.
Remember that the US is a country that became independent through a violent revolution. The founding myth is that it's OK to do that, that government is ultimately optional. That if the whole neighbourhood gets together to resist government decisions, then violence against the forces of the state is justified.
@ECraigR I sympathise with your wish not to be conscripted to fight for either side in a civil war between the US government and QAnon/Proud Boys/Donald Trump etc,. It's not a nice prospect. You're in the age range that is at risk of conscription. I'm well past it and in a far away country. What I'm about to say is meant to allay your fears, even though I recognise it might not.
If you are assuming all civil wars are like the one in the 1860s where both sides conscripted what were much like conventional national armies, then that's a fair worry. But if you're including in your category 'civil war' a whole range of other conflicts, it isn't. You've referred to the Northern Irish troubles. None of the three parties involved, the UK army and the two sides' paramilitaries had conscripts.
Apart from those that had chosen to get involved, most people in Northern Ireland tried to get on with living their lives as normally and safely as they could.
I think the parties in Syria conscript their armies but the trend these days is against conscription for anything other than defence of the country against seriously threatening other states. Your own country, Russia and Argentina have all had bad experiences both military and domestically from trying to fight foreign wars with conscripts. Apart from Syria, which is a very bad precedent for anything, I'm not sure that there have been many, if any, cases recently of people taking the risk of deploying conscripts for internal security operations.
Effective suppression of serious rebellion doesn't just depend on having more armed men than your opponents all wading in with guns blazing like John Wayne or the A Team. That's merely the fantasy that this week's rebels have. It requires well trained, disciplined and controlled units who know what they are doing.
For an 1860s style civil war, QAnon/Proud Boys/Donald Trump etc. would need to control territory and wage war on the rest of the USA from it. That would be a very frightening thought, but I wouldn't have thought you really need to imagine that as being likely to happen.
For now, it's a reasonable fear that if QAnon/Proud Boys/Donald Trump etc. were to be active where you live, it could make life difficult, stressful and dangerous for those of you that live there. I don't think it's anything like as reasonable to assume you'd be conscripted by them or the US military, given a gun and told that if you don't fight you'll be shot.
@ECraigR, since you apparently haven’t left the thread after all, please answer my question, which I’m now asking for the third time:
You’ve said I’m advocating for Civil War, and that as a result I “want [my] kids in a coffin.” On what that I have said in this thread do you base the conclusion that I am advocating for Civil War?
Democracy dies from the right when moderate conservatives join with the extreme right. 9 senators and 139 representatives voted against certifications of the American electoral college results after the coup mob trashed the building.
War against democracy? You're no where near safe from that.
I will say all the histories of The Troubles I've read identify it as a civil war.
Living in England for the duration of the Troubles was far preferable to living in a fascist state. I've never been to Northern Ireland, but I think living there during the troubles was far preferable to living in a fascist state. It certainly was never even in Northern Ireland a situation in which all young adults were called up for combat.
(There was a civil war in the Republican Ireland after independence in the 1920s, although I don't know the details of that.)
What I don't understand is why you're confident that impeaching Trump or even electing Biden won't lead to civil war but prosecuting him will? Why is that line just there?
And do you count the state investigations for financial misdemeanours that have been ongoing in New York under the latter?
It seems to me that what Trump's supporters want, and what triggered the assault on the Capitol building, is for Trump to continue as President and Biden not to be appointed.
Fundamental point: Nobody wants a Civil War in the US. People are largely just disagreeing about the most effective way to prevent one.
[Hosting]
For those directly involved this thread has very personal ramifications, and it’s important to recognise that.
Because of that it is both more challenging and more important for posters to adhere to the guidelines
1. No personal attacks
We all have different opinions about weighty matters, some strongly held. Disagree with the view, not the person. The statement, "View X is stupid," is acceptable. The statement, "Person X is stupid," is not.
…
3. Be courteous in your debating style
Apologise when you err; apologies are always well-received here. Take personal offense or disagreements to the Hell board, where they won't bother other posters.
and Commandments 3-5
3. Attack the issue, not the person – Personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
4. If you must get personal, take it to Hell – If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.
5. Don’t easily offend, don’t be easily offended – Disagreement is normal here. Try not to nurse hurt feelings. Conversely, if you know you’ve screwed up, admit it without excuse. We’ve all had to at some point.
It’s also important to recognise that if someone is advocating a course which you feel will have a particular outcome, but they do not, then it is unhelpful to accuse them of advocating the outcome.
Dispassionate discussion isn’t necessarily appropriate or possible in the circumstances, but it is equally unhelpful to be challenging posters on the basis of assumptions about their personal situations.
Finally, posts which appear to wish harm on other posters or express indifference about harm coming to them are out of place in Purgatory.
[/Hosting]
BroJames, Purgatory Host
Democracy dies from the right when moderate conservatives join with the extreme right. 9 senators and 139 representatives voted against certifications of the American electoral college results after the coup mob trashed the building.
War against democracy? You're no where near safe from that.
@Dafyd, I had university boyfriends (at different times) who came from Belfast and Strabane* at the height of the Troubles, both protestant, plus another RC friend from Temple Patrick. They all had some pretty hair-raising stories of what it was like living in any of those places at the time. They were very far from unaffected.
This was a London university college, so we lived with the bomb threat continuously and were near enough to a number - Airey Neave, Oxford Street, Chelsea Barracks, Knightsbridge, (Woolwich) - just from the ones that went off and weren't defused in advance. Those Royal Household cavalry soldiers and horses rode past our digs first thing in the morning out to exercise. We'd hear them, sometimes be out early enough to see them. And we'd hear the bombs. (A few years later there was a gas explosion near where I was then living and my first thought was another bomb.)
The barman in one of the university bars was a known Republican sympathiser and was pulled in for questioning every time there was an incident. And all those boys had me speak for them on occasion in situations where they did not dare expose their Irish accents, which was surprisingly often.
The lads from Belfast and Temple Patrick ended up sharing a room one year, to the consternation of their families. It's the sort of thing that could have endangered both families back home.
I also have a neighbour currently suffering from PTSD and other ill effects following a tour of duty in NI as part of the Paras. I can imagine from some of the other stories I've heard.
Colour me unconvinced that people were unaffected by the Troubles.
* otherwise known as bandit country during the Troubles, the most bombed town in Europe, not just NI, where the troops came and left by helicopters as the roads were too dangerous.
Thank you, Curiosity. I'm not saying that people were unaffected by the Troubles. I'm just saying that I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they were preferable to a Fascist society.
Hi All, sorry for my behavior and rhetoric on Saturday. I got too worked up and sucked into a blackhole. I apologize for being an asshole and engaging in assholery. I think I'll take my own advice and fuck off on this one.
Hi All, sorry for my behavior and rhetoric on Saturday. I got too worked up and sucked into a blackhole. I apologize for being an asshole and engaging in assholery. I think I'll take my own advice and fuck off on this one.
Again, sorry.
No worries. Most of us have been there. I certainly have.
Comments
You are advocating giving people exactly what they want because they are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them".
Or to put it another way, you’ve said I’m advocating for Civil War. On what that I have said in this thread do you base the conclusion that I am advocating for Civil War?
We get taught real logic in my university.
Again, I respect you immensely mousethief, but you're off.
No, I'm not. I'm advocating not making a civil war unless you @chrisstiles are willing to fight it
If they are (not) "amenable to systems and processes working in anyway against them" (your quote) then the only choice if you want peace is to appease them in any way they demand.
YOU FIGHT THE WAR THEN.
You could at least pay me the respect of saying how. And I definitely got taught real logic, over and over. I've even taught it myself at university. So enough of that.
@ECraigR Purgatory is a forum for reasoned argument, not for telling posters who disagree with you to shut up in a manner that amounts to a personal attack. If you have to do that take it to Hell.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
In fact, I think seeing Trump tried, convicted, and jailed could very well have a salutary effect on his followers, who would have a harder time believing in his miraculous comeback from a cell in the prison Manafort was sent to. It's hard to avoid looking like a loser in a prison uniform.
Go for a walk, blow something up in a video game, pound a punch bag, something. You're winding yourself up more and more to no good end.
I'm reminded of a certain kind of religious "discussion".
Since the slow erosion of "separate but equal" education and other facilities under Jim Crow took a hundred a years to become significant?
You say prosecuting Trump doesn’t lead to war? Cool, I hope you’re all volunteering your kids to fight and die if war does come.
Bye
Trump’s people go home meekly after they’ve been charged? in what world
Oh I just saw this: rude and pedantic. Why doesn’t this get flagged for a personal attack @BroJames ?
That's almost literally the dictionary definition of appeasement. (Except a deterrent is usually a threat of punishment, not an extortion payment.) Trump’s people go home meekly after he's been impeached? in what world
Trump’s people go home meekly after he's been removed by the 25th Amendment? in what world
What's the difference?
White supremacist and Christian extremist violence has killed hundreds, if not thousands, in the US this century already. From Timothy McVeigh to the Pulse nightclub, to murders under cover of uniform like that of George Floyd.
It is masked in public discourse by referring each time to a lone wolf, or a bad apple.
But functionally, being inspired by qanon is no different to being inspired by Daesh. Nor am I convinced that calling yourself the proud boys, the bugaloo boys or the kkk, and putting on a red hat or a white hood, is much different to putting on a brown shirt or a black one and marching for your leader.
I'm sorry if it came across as rude. It was entirely genuine concern for your wellbeing. It looks/looked to me like you're catastrophising and I've been down that road oh-so-often and it's not a good one.
Remember that the US is a country that became independent through a violent revolution. The founding myth is that it's OK to do that, that government is ultimately optional. That if the whole neighbourhood gets together to resist government decisions, then violence against the forces of the state is justified.
If you are assuming all civil wars are like the one in the 1860s where both sides conscripted what were much like conventional national armies, then that's a fair worry. But if you're including in your category 'civil war' a whole range of other conflicts, it isn't. You've referred to the Northern Irish troubles. None of the three parties involved, the UK army and the two sides' paramilitaries had conscripts.
Apart from those that had chosen to get involved, most people in Northern Ireland tried to get on with living their lives as normally and safely as they could.
I think the parties in Syria conscript their armies but the trend these days is against conscription for anything other than defence of the country against seriously threatening other states. Your own country, Russia and Argentina have all had bad experiences both military and domestically from trying to fight foreign wars with conscripts. Apart from Syria, which is a very bad precedent for anything, I'm not sure that there have been many, if any, cases recently of people taking the risk of deploying conscripts for internal security operations.
Effective suppression of serious rebellion doesn't just depend on having more armed men than your opponents all wading in with guns blazing like John Wayne or the A Team. That's merely the fantasy that this week's rebels have. It requires well trained, disciplined and controlled units who know what they are doing.
For an 1860s style civil war, QAnon/Proud Boys/Donald Trump etc. would need to control territory and wage war on the rest of the USA from it. That would be a very frightening thought, but I wouldn't have thought you really need to imagine that as being likely to happen.
For now, it's a reasonable fear that if QAnon/Proud Boys/Donald Trump etc. were to be active where you live, it could make life difficult, stressful and dangerous for those of you that live there. I don't think it's anything like as reasonable to assume you'd be conscripted by them or the US military, given a gun and told that if you don't fight you'll be shot.
You’ve said I’m advocating for Civil War, and that as a result I “want [my] kids in a coffin.” On what that I have said in this thread do you base the conclusion that I am advocating for Civil War?
War against democracy? You're no where near safe from that.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/07/us/elections/electoral-college-biden-objectors.html
(There was a civil war in the Republican Ireland after independence in the 1920s, although I don't know the details of that.)
What I don't understand is why you're confident that impeaching Trump or even electing Biden won't lead to civil war but prosecuting him will? Why is that line just there?
And do you count the state investigations for financial misdemeanours that have been ongoing in New York under the latter?
It seems to me that what Trump's supporters want, and what triggered the assault on the Capitol building, is for Trump to continue as President and Biden not to be appointed.
Fundamental point: Nobody wants a Civil War in the US. People are largely just disagreeing about the most effective way to prevent one.
For those directly involved this thread has very personal ramifications, and it’s important to recognise that.
Because of that it is both more challenging and more important for posters to adhere to the guidelines and Commandments 3-5 It’s also important to recognise that if someone is advocating a course which you feel will have a particular outcome, but they do not, then it is unhelpful to accuse them of advocating the outcome.
Dispassionate discussion isn’t necessarily appropriate or possible in the circumstances, but it is equally unhelpful to be challenging posters on the basis of assumptions about their personal situations.
Finally, posts which appear to wish harm on other posters or express indifference about harm coming to them are out of place in Purgatory.
[/Hosting]
BroJames, Purgatory Host
Picking one nit: 3 senators backed down after the raid, so it was only 6 that voted nay.
This was a London university college, so we lived with the bomb threat continuously and were near enough to a number - Airey Neave, Oxford Street, Chelsea Barracks, Knightsbridge, (Woolwich) - just from the ones that went off and weren't defused in advance. Those Royal Household cavalry soldiers and horses rode past our digs first thing in the morning out to exercise. We'd hear them, sometimes be out early enough to see them. And we'd hear the bombs. (A few years later there was a gas explosion near where I was then living and my first thought was another bomb.)
The barman in one of the university bars was a known Republican sympathiser and was pulled in for questioning every time there was an incident. And all those boys had me speak for them on occasion in situations where they did not dare expose their Irish accents, which was surprisingly often.
The lads from Belfast and Temple Patrick ended up sharing a room one year, to the consternation of their families. It's the sort of thing that could have endangered both families back home.
I also have a neighbour currently suffering from PTSD and other ill effects following a tour of duty in NI as part of the Paras. I can imagine from some of the other stories I've heard.
Colour me unconvinced that people were unaffected by the Troubles.
* otherwise known as bandit country during the Troubles, the most bombed town in Europe, not just NI, where the troops came and left by helicopters as the roads were too dangerous.
Again, sorry.
No worries. Most of us have been there. I certainly have.