The doctrine of original sin

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  • @Marvin the Martian i can recommend doing a Google image search of graffiti.

    Obviously a lot of it starts with f and ends with k, which is kinda cathartic, but occasionally you get something better:

    “Of what value is freedom of speech when nobody listens?”

    “If the government is the answer then it’s a bloody stupid question”

    “The best things in life aren’t things”

    Sometimes even Paul Simon is right; the words of the prophets are written on subway walls.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Sometimes the hardest thing is just to put one foot in front of the other; to be upbeat and optimistic and strong for the sake of others.

    And I have no idea where the strength to do that comes from and there have been times in my own life where I have spectacularly failed to maintain it.

    But I’m still here. Objectively, things still suck, but I’m here.

    Apologies for the OT post.

    I'm with you there Bill. It comes - genetically - from needing to be brave for the kids, which is a good.
  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    I assume that you have a to-do list?

    Operational (i.e. "buy milk, pick kids up from nursery"), yes.
    Strategic (i.e. "where do you see yourself in five years?*"), no.

    .

    *= I'd love, just once, to be able to answer that with "in a position where I never have to answer that stupid fucking question ever again".

    I hear you, and COVID has tossed many of us into exactly the same position; living far more hand-to-mouth than we ever dreamed/feared.

    Nothing to do with Covid, I've never really planned - or even thought - ahead in that sort of way.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    This quite clearly has other applications beyond sin:
    Seriously, do y'all WANT a playpen world in which you never have to make a significant decision and in which there are no consequences, ever, no matter what you do?

    It does, and we could go there, but that would be a different thread. Wanna start one?
  • Seriously, do y'all WANT a playpen world in which you never have to make a significant decision and in which there are no consequences, ever, no matter what you do? A world where nothing matters, where we never grow or learn because our Sky Daddy bails us out instantly every time we fuck up. Much like Trump's father, in fact. Hmmmmmm.

    Sounds good to me. Triply so if the “consequences” consist of sadness, pain, death and eternal damnation.

    Well, I know it sounds good to you. You're in a pretty dark place right now, by all indications, and I'm sorry for it.

    I still suspect you'll want your child to have the opportunity to make real decisions in life, rather than being somebody's carefully kept puppet.
  • Well, I know it sounds good to you. You're in a pretty dark place right now, by all indications, and I'm sorry for it.

    Have been for a while. Theologically I’m caught between the rock of having to obey a bunch of rules that don’t bring me any joy or enjoyment and the hard place of eternal damnation if I don’t comply.

    And even following the rules only guarantees an eternity of continuing to have to follow them, which is desirable only in comparison to the aforesaid eternal damnation.
    I still suspect you'll want your child to have the opportunity to make real decisions in life, rather than being somebody's carefully kept puppet.

    I want my children (#2 arrives in a few months) to be happy. If being in a world where we have to make real decisions detracts from that happiness then it’s a bad thing. Not that I have any say in the matter, of course, which is just one more reason why this world sucks. And I think I’m within my rights to lay the blame for that at the feet of the one who created it.
  • But Christianity is NOT ABOUT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

    Damn, I wish I could help you out of this hole. I spent years in it, trying to obey the commandments, carrying the huge burden of a law that no human being but Jesus could ever shoulder, and being near-suicidally depressed about it. That isn't Christianity, that's legalism, and the weight it puts on people is intolerable. It's also just plain wrong--incorrect--not what God's asking for. If it were, explain to me what the cross is for?
  • But Christianity is NOT ABOUT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

    You won’t find many theologians (of any stripe) who say we should (or even can) just do whatever we like with impunity.

    This is one of the things I really hate about Christianity. It’s all “you don’t have to follow rules”. “But this is how you should live”. “But you don’t have to live like that”. “But you should live like that”.

    I’m like, if I have to live that way then just sodding say so. And if Christianity doesn’t demand that I have to live any specific way then it should stop telling me how I should live. Stop trying to have it both ways.
    It's also just plain wrong--incorrect--not what God's asking for.

    But he is asking for something. And if we have to provide it, then that’s a rule.
    If it were, explain to me what the cross is for?

    The cross is grace and salvation. But Paul argues that we shouldn’t go on sinning so that that grace may increase. If it was a case of “you’re saved, so do what you like in the assurance of that salvation” then it would be different. But it’s more like “you’re saved from having to follow the rules, so in response you should follow the rules anyway. But this time do it out of gratitude rather than obligation. Oh, and if you don’t then that probably means you’re not really saved, so... yeah.”
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I've often wanted to ask this - which rules is it you find so irksome?

  • Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Whether we believe in God or not, the challenge is to rise above our origins.

    Why?

    Because our origins suck?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I've often wanted to ask this - which rules is it you find so irksome?

    I’ll observe in advance that even by asking that question you’re admitting the existence of said rules.

    That said, all the stuff about giving away your wealth rather than enjoying it yourself will do for a start.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I've often wanted to ask this - which rules is it you find so irksome?

    I’ll observe in advance that even by asking that question you’re admitting the existence of said rules.

    That said, all the stuff about giving away your wealth rather than enjoying it yourself will do for a start.

    Well, I might mean "rules you perceive to exist".

    But is that a rule or Jesus' instruction to a particular very wealthy man?

    I know of no Christian denomination that sees that as a general rule everyone must follow.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    I'd be interested in Shipmates' opinions on this seven minute YouTube watch which is Richard Rohr's take on original sin.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I know of no Christian denomination that sees that as a general rule everyone must follow.

    And yet the concept of tithing is taught in virtually all of them.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I know of no Christian denomination that sees that as a general rule everyone must follow.

    And yet the concept of tithing is taught in virtually all of them.

    Which is hardly giving all your wealth away. Not that I can recall tithing being much of a thing.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    edited January 14
    I never said “all your wealth”.
  • Tithing is totally optional, unlike the income tax.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    @Marvin the Martian. You poor bugger. You poor wee bugger.
  • Tithing is totally optional, unlike the income tax.

    Totally? What, like not even God cares whether I do or not?
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Whether we believe in God or not, the challenge is to rise above our origins.

    Why?

    Because our origins suck?

    Mine don’t.
  • Tithing is totally optional, unlike the income tax.

    Totally? What, like not even God cares whether I do or not?

    Truthfully, no.

    Why should he? The cattle on a thousand hills are his, and etc. etc. etc. If tithing is a huge stumbling block to you, set it aside. The church will survive without your envelope in the plate. And I say this as the wife of a pastor who hasn't received a salary for it since 2006.

    God's not after your wallet, he's after your heart.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Whether we believe in God or not, the challenge is to rise above our origins.

    Why?

    Because our origins suck?

    Mine don’t.

    Yours are the same as mine.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 15
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I know of no Christian denomination that sees that as a general rule everyone must follow.

    And yet the concept of tithing is taught in virtually all of them.

    Which is hardly giving all your wealth away. Not that I can recall tithing being much of a thing.

    Then who do I give my 10% to? I preached an offertory once. Told them they didn't have to give a thing, it was OK not to, especially after what they'd been through. I feel I should pay for the time I am in the pew, you know, for the commercial service, as I would at a theatre. Not as a measure of my commitment to the multi-million business, you know, not as a share of its running costs pro-rata to 'membership'. But going forward, if I ever do, I'll pay for the odd communion and whatever social gospel I can contribute to. But I'm not paying for all the bullshit. If it goes under as a commercial operation, fine.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Talking of bullshit, can you believe that a C13th Anglican church in walking distance was begging for an organ repair at least in the past 5 years? And they say the inclusive social gospel is dead!
  • God's not after your wallet, he's after your heart.

    Then he needs to try harder. One option may be to drop the whole "who are you to question me" thing, because shit like that isn't really conducive to a loving relationship. Or any kind of amicable relationship at all. Love requires honesty and openness, not "shut up and take whatever I deign to give you". And would it kill him to say hi once in a while?
  • Then he needs to try harder... And would it kill him to say hi once in a while?

    I often forget that when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians 1:8, he really meant it. Even the best of us can get to a dark place; a Good Saturday that goes on forever.

    And I got myself into autopilot; just going through the motions and jumping through hoops in a congregation that seemed to be content with groupthink and tick boxes rather than faith that could move mountains.

    I accept that was probably 60/40 projection/ their problem (okay, maybe 80/20 😉) but there are times when you just have to question how much faith is behind observance, you know?

    One of the unhealthy aspects of our modern churchgoing is that we change jobs and houses far more frequently than we change congregations.

    The church group fears this because they can grow to rely more on the presence of particular people than the presence of Christ to support them and the leadership can fear this because, to put it bluntly, the possible loss of volunteers and donations can grow to dominate their thinking.

    Our Christianity is dominated far too much by “temple thinking” anyway. Yes it is good to meet together, but it is vital to ask yourself “if I stopped all this church busy-ness, what would be left?”

    Jesus Christ is not interested in temples. The Holy Spirit has no exclusive temple anymore (Christians are A temple, not THE temple). The Spirit now lives WITH people on earth just as the Son did; amongst both disciples and multitudes (Matthew 8:20)

    But we’re obsessed with Church building nonetheless.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited January 15
    God's not after your wallet, he's after your heart.

    Then he needs to try harder. One option may be to drop the whole "who are you to question me" thing, because shit like that isn't really conducive to a loving relationship. Or any kind of amicable relationship at all. Love requires honesty and openness, not "shut up and take whatever I deign to give you". And would it kill him to say hi once in a while?

    He did in @Lamb Chopped.
  • God's not after your wallet, he's after your heart.

    Then he needs to try harder. One option may be to drop the whole "who are you to question me" thing, because shit like that isn't really conducive to a loving relationship. Or any kind of amicable relationship at all. Love requires honesty and openness, not "shut up and take whatever I deign to give you". And would it kill him to say hi once in a while?

    Has he said that ("Who are you" etc.) to you personally? Because my experience of him is he takes a fair amount of crap from people who are honestly trying to communicate and it doesn't disturb him a bit. People who are piling shit on with trowels while being two-faced dickheads, that's a bit different.
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