The Prophecy of The Popes

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  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited January 11
    I mean, do you really think this is the first time, in the entire history of the world, that the word 'prophecy' has been associated with 'predicting the future'?

    You know it hasn't. Your whole angle seems to be 'but there's lots of predicting the future in the Biblical prophets, therefore it's wrong to say that prophecy is not telling the future'.

    And we are talking about a thing labelled as a prophecy that is just future predictions.

    But here you are, acting like there's something terribly shocking about commenting on the problems with thinking that prophecy is fundamentally about telling the future. As if I just plucked this notion randomly out of the sky. As if this is the first conversation ever witnessed since the dawn of time about a 'prophecy' of that type, and you can't imagine why anyone would introduce such an observation.

    You're acting as if I said something about how it's fundamentally wrong to define prophecy as swimming the English Channel.

    I never said that prophecy couldn't involve predicting the future. There are only 2 options for your statement: either it's an inaccurate description of my claim, or it is a claim on your part that predicting the future is what prophecy is all about, in which case my comment was obviously justified.

    Besides, when God tells people about the future, it's certainly not for the purpose of people sitting there checking off predictions on a list and getting excited about how it's all coming true.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I'm not aware of any prophecy in the OT in the sense of actually foretelling the future, apart from bogusly after the event of course. With the possible exception of part of one in the 163 BCE apocalyptic Book of Daniel, possibly covering the Incarnation, picked up in the Apocalypse of John of Patmos. Any more?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 11
    O come now - don't tease!
    :naughty:

    References, or linkies, if you would be so kind...
    :wink:
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Och no man! Sorry, pearson. You don't want to go there.

    And so you can't think of any? Anyone?
  • I missed that Kerygmania thread (Great Cthulhu is sometimes merciful...).

    I think I'll go and lie down for a while...the Book of Daniel is rather heavy-going, I find.

    Please - carry on as you were...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye, James A. Montgomery, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Daniel, International Critical Commentary (Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1979), p400 comes to mind.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    Seems awfully suspicious, though, doesn't it? If the prophecy were genuine, there's no reason for the sudden drop-off in accuracy just at the time it was "discovered" - but if it were a fake, that's exactly what one would expect.

    I have already explained this, but I'll try again. St. Malachy was definitely not the author of the Prophecy of the Popes. Fr. Arnold Wion was the true author. He used the ruse of attributing his predictions to St. Malachy to avoid being put on trial for heresy by the Roman Inquisition. Catholic theology holds that prophecy ended with the Book of Revelation. One can get away with making a "political" prophecy about who will be elected pope in 1590, but one is risking being burned at the stake if one says that the world will end under the reign of the 39th future pope. Fr. M. J. O'Brien proved that Wion used a 1557 papal history by Fr. Pavinious as his source of information.
    So the theory is that he totally fabricated the first 74 "predictions", but the other 39 are completely trustworthy prophecies? It's agreed that he definitely lied about the origins of the bulk of the document, but he's totally reliable about the rest?
    Of course the first 74 predictions were very accurate. They were made after 1557 using Pavinious's history. The remaining 39 were not made after the fact. Many are rather innocuous and could easily apply to any pope. To truly test the prophecy we look for those that would be very unlikely to be fulfilled. "Religio depopulata" is one of these. Popes are not expected to depopulate religion. It happens only under exceptional circumstances such as an world-wide persecution by a Roman Emperor or by a pandemic such as the Black Death, and it happened only one time since the publication if the prophecy in 1595.

    Fixed quoting tags. @undead_rat you got them back to front. Preview is your friend in getting it right. BroJames, Purgatory Host
    All of the "correct" prophecies are directly about the popes themselves - they're not about random things that just happen to occur during one papacy or another. That would suggest that Benedict XV was directly responsible for destroying religion - or, in your interpretation, that he was responsible for WW1 and the Russian revolution.
  • I missed that Kerygmania thread (Great Cthulhu is sometimes merciful...).

    I think I'll go and lie down for a while...the Book of Daniel is rather heavy-going, I find.

    After reading Daniel, I hope that when you go lie down you are sure of your company.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Montgomery: “The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O.T. criticism.”
  • @orfeo - yeah I get it. It's okay for you to respond to something nobody said, just not me.
  • All of the "correct" prophecies are directly about the popes themselves - they're not about random things that just happen to occur during one papacy or another. That would suggest that Benedict XV was directly responsible for destroying religion - or, in your interpretation, that he was responsible for WW1 and the Russian revolution.

    It seems that sometimes the papal prophecy is about events during a particular papacy rather than directly about the pope himself. Take "Aquila rapax" for instance. You would not expect a pope to be a rapacious eagle or even to associate himself with such a person, but Pius VII traveled to Paris for the purpose of presiding at Napoleon's coronation, blessed Napoleon, and, thereafter, always referred to that dictator as "my dear son." Three days later Napoleon presented bronze eagle standards to his regiments which then proceeded to ravage most of Europe.

    BTW, I am not expecting to convince everyone of the validity of the Prophecy of the Popes.
    I am only hoping to bring it to the forum's attention. We have a prediction, yet unfulfilled, for Pope Francis. It is number 112, and, correctly translated, reads:

    He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church.

    Something is up here, something ominous.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    All of the "correct" prophecies are directly about the popes themselves - they're not about random things that just happen to occur during one papacy or another. That would suggest that Benedict XV was directly responsible for destroying religion - or, in your interpretation, that he was responsible for WW1 and the Russian revolution.

    It seems that sometimes the papal prophecy is about events during a particular papacy rather than directly about the pope himself. Take "Aquila rapax" for instance. You would not expect a pope to be a rapacious eagle or even to associate himself with such a person, but Pius VII traveled to Paris for the purpose of presiding at Napoleon's coronation, blessed Napoleon, and, thereafter, always referred to that dictator as "my dear son." Three days later Napoleon presented bronze eagle standards to his regiments which then proceeded to ravage most of Europe.
    No, you’ve missed the point. All the old ones covering the period prior to the writing pertain to the popes themselves. Picking random events with only the most tenuous connection to a pope - or practically none at all - to explain the speculative ones is really just grasping at straws with which to pick cherries.
  • I'm not going to try to convince you. I just want the forum to be aware of the current prediction for Pope Francis. If that event takes place, it will be validation of the final and 113th prediction.
  • undead_rat--

    IF that refers to Pope Francis...one might speculate it could refer to the RCC sexual abuse crisis, which some of the hierarchy view as persecution. Of course, many people view it as getting the truth out, getting justice for victims/survivors, stopping and getting treatment for the abusers, and cleaning that hell out of the church.

    Not saying the RCC *should* close down. But I have my moments.

    :votive:
  • My user name is for entertainment value only and has nothing to do with anyone but myself. I imported it from the Yahoo backgammon site after my real name was banned from CAF.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Ok, what exactly counts as “the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church”?
  • That which destroys it, as an institution?

    Which may well be the child abuse scandal...
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    That’s self-destruction, not persecution.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 12
    Yes, but perceived persecution (in the form of massive legal action/public opprobrium) would come from outside.

    IYSWIM.

    Perhaps @undead_rat could try to answer your question?
  • Dave W wrote: »
    Ok, what exactly counts as “the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church”?

    I'm afraid that won't be known until after Papa Frank is dead and the believers have had a chance to fit the facts to the "prophecy".
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    All of the "correct" prophecies are directly about the popes themselves - they're not about random things that just happen to occur during one papacy or another. That would suggest that Benedict XV was directly responsible for destroying religion - or, in your interpretation, that he was responsible for WW1 and the Russian revolution.

    It seems that sometimes the papal prophecy is about events during a particular papacy rather than directly about the pope himself. Take "Aquila rapax" for instance. You would not expect a pope to be a rapacious eagle or even to associate himself with such a person, but Pius VII traveled to Paris for the purpose of presiding at Napoleon's coronation, blessed Napoleon, and, thereafter, always referred to that dictator as "my dear son." Three days later Napoleon presented bronze eagle standards to his regiments which then proceeded to ravage most of Europe.

    BTW, I am not expecting to convince everyone of the validity of the Prophecy of the Popes.
    I am only hoping to bring it to the forum's attention. We have a prediction, yet unfulfilled, for Pope Francis. It is number 112, and, correctly translated, reads:

    He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church.

    Something is up here, something ominous.

    In your cognitive bias.
  • @undead_rat said:

    BTW, I am not expecting to convince everyone of the validity of the Prophecy of the Popes.
    I am only hoping to bring it to the forum's attention. We have a prediction, yet unfulfilled, for Pope Francis. It is number 112, and, correctly translated, reads:

    He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church.

    Something is up here, something ominous.


    Fair enough - you have brought the prophecy to our attention, and it's an interesting subject. Would you care to let us know what your own personal view is, without referring to learned tomes which may not be within our reach?

    FWIW, it wouldn't bother me, personally, if the RCC ceased to exist as a formal institution - *the Church* (as in the Christian family) would continue to exist, because Jesus said it would.
  • According to the various Gospel passages Jesus said 'this Gospel of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the earth... and then the end will come. (Matthew) and also'be assured I am with you always to the end of time.
    There will be 'an end of time' and it could be today or tomorrow or the day after.
    We know that for each one of us there will be a personal 'end of time' which could be today or tomorrow or the day after.
    The prophecy of the 'last pope' has quite clear words though what they mean, if anything, have to be interpreted.
    Petrus romanus will 'feed his flock amid many tribulations
    after which the seven hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful judge will judge his people - the last words in Latin 'judex tremendus judicabit populum suum'.

    There have been various prophecies about the end times for ages and many people have claimed to read the 'sign of the times'. The good thing from this prophecy is that the pope will continue 'to feed his flock' and that the judge will 'judge his people. nothing bad there.
  • Dave W wrote: »
    Ok, what exactly counts as “the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church”?

    I'm afraid that won't be known until after Papa Frank is dead and the believers have had a chance to fit the facts to the "prophecy".

    Now we at at the crux of the matter. There has been, floating around the internet, a report of alleged visions had by Pope Pius X in 1909 and 1914. I say "alleged" because we no no record in this pope's biographies of any such vision. Regardless of that, these two visions purport to describe some kind of disaster at happening at Vatican City which forces both the Pope and a "successor of the same name" to leave while having to walk over or be carried over dead bodies.
    The Pope would be, of course, Francis, and the "successor" would be Joseph Ratzinger who shares his first name with Giuseppe Sarto.

    In my opinion, this alleged vision ties in with the prediction for Pope Francis about the "final persecution. of S.R.E." The spurious period that follows the Latin word "psecutione" signals the premature end of Francis' papacy through some kind of violent attack on the European Catholic Church.

    I fear the Iran will team up with its former enemy, ISIS, by providing the weaponry, while ISIS uses the innocent Muslim refugee population in Europe as its cover.
  • undead_rat wrote: »

    I fear the Iran will team up with its former enemy, ISIS, by providing the weaponry, while ISIS uses the innocent Muslim refugee population in Europe as its cover.

    Will they be beaten back by an alliance of Zombie Ian Paisley and a strike force of deadly Jesuit ninjas? That seems about as likely as Sunni fundamentalists going to conservative Shias for weapons and getting them.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    My enemy's enemy and quadruple think apply.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Shipmate
    edited January 12
    Zombie Ian Paisley would never ally with Jesuit ninjas, not unless he was made First Zombie Jesuit Minister. (I mean NEVER!!!, it has to be in capital letters)
  • On the plus side, I think I may have a pitch for a new action movie.
  • undead rat--

    Hmmm...at first thought, ISTM that prophecies/predictions are so you can do something: prepare to get away, hide, and/or hunker down with supplies; try to guide circumstances and behavior to keep something from happening; be prepared to step in and try fix things if/when they do happen. (Or make bets and investments!)

    So IF the "two popes in a disaster" prophecy you just mentioned is true, what could/should be done about it?

    If a natural disaster or a pandemic, I suppose both the Vatican and Rome could double-check and improve their emergency plans and preparations. If some sort of violent attack, make sure guards, police, etc. are properly trained, good plans are in place, etc. And preparations for those two "Ifs" overlap. And individuals who might be affected can do their own prep and planning.

    Other than that, all anyone can do is pray, keep a general eye out for signs (but in a balanced way), and get on with their lives.

    Freaking out doesn't help anyone. Many times, people have thought "THIS is surely the time this particular prophecy/prediction is talking about and when it comes true"--and it didn't. Whether they mis-estimated, or the prophecy/prediction was false, or circumstances changed...who knows?

    I grew up in a little, non-denom, fundamentalist church. We took end-times prophecy seriously; paid attention, as Jesus asked; but were careful about not necessarily solidly accepting a particular interpretation. E.g., Hal Lindsey's "The Late, Great Planet Earth" got attention and discussion--but also some doubt.

    I mention all this, undead rat, because you seem concerned in your own self and concerned enough to try to alert others.

    It's really easy to get sucked wayyy down a rabbit hole about something like this, and have a hard time finding a way back out.

    Don't lose your balance, ok? Whatever is true about these things, you still have to live in the meantime.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Thing I have observed about states of acute stress - almost any anything can take on the quality of revelation. Desperate for pattern, for meaning we seize on something which seems to comment on or explicate our situation.

    But choice (conscious or unconscious) and projection are at play. It is like those dreams in which you think 'This can't be a dream because I couldn't possibly imagine this level of detail/marvellous scenery'.

    But the ability to create narratives is one of the glories of humanity - you just need to remember they are creations.
  • Thanks for your kind observations, Golden Key.

    I see the purpose of prediction #112 for Pope Francis as this: if it does in fact come true it will validate prediction #113 for the final pope, Petrus Romanus. This is important because "Petrus Romanus qui pacset oves" or "Peter of Rome who will feed his sheep" sounds very much like a reference to St. Peter.
    Remembering that "the perfect disciple will be like his master," we should not discount the possibility that St. Peter will return as a resurrected being to lead his church through the last days of the world. Allen and Skye report an old Italian proverb that the last pope will be from a Jewish family.*

    Because people in general do not understand that Adolph Hitler was the anti-Christ, we see constant speculation as to that person's future manifestation. If St. Peter were to appear in the flesh with abilities similar to what Jesus had after His resurrection, people might call him the anti-Christ (particularly if if he expressed his own 1st century theology.)

    And that is what I see as the purpose of the Prophecy of the Popes. If true, it will help us to understand who the next pope really is.

    *Prophecy and the Last Pope, Dace Allen & Sarah Skye

  • undead rat--

    That sounds...tangled...and could as easily pull a person in a bad direction as a good one.

    Remember Jesus cautioned about signs and wonders. Special abilities don't necessarily equal holiness or a mission from God. And they can be faked, especially with today's technology.

    If Peter were to come back, somehow, and he knew who he was, and *we* were supposed to know who he was, I suspect he and God could find a way to tell us.

    IIRC, John the Baptist has been identified with Elijah's return. Whether that was about symbolism, reincarnation, or whatever, JtB doesn't seem aware of it in the stories we have.

    IMVHO: ISTM that much of wanting an {end-times, apocalyptic, and/or new beginnings} religious prophecy (from any religion) is about wanting a break from the way things are, wanting a recess (like at school), wanting a reboot. I say this with respect for the following and the people in those traditions, and am not casting doubt on *any* of them. Just noticing patterns/similarities, whatever they might (or not) mean.

    Examples: White Buffalo Calf Woman (Lakota); Maitreya (both in the traditional Buddhist sense, and the current organization who teaches that he's back and is the return of several expected people); the Messiah (Judaism); the Mahdi (Islam, among certain groups); Quetzalcoatl (Aztec); various Norse deities, after Ragnarok (Norse mythology); Kalki/Vishnu (Hinduism); King Arthur...and on and on.

    I don't what prophecies about returning people/beings might be true. For all I know, they all might be.
    :astonished:

    But whatever the future holds, we've still got to live our lives. AIUI, that's what *they* want, too.

    And what Jesus wants.

    Food for thought, ok?
  • I'm pretty sure that the Mahdi of Shi'ite Islam was Mirza Husayn Ali.
    But thanks for your thoughts.
    (And i think that YHWH has found a way to tell us about who the next pope really is.)

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited January 13
    @undead_rat:

    Because people in general do not understand that Adolph Hitler was the anti-Christ

    You say "realise" as if it was a fact not everyone knows, as opposed to part of your highly speculative and frankly unconvincing narrative, the background research of which doesn't go as far as spelling Hitler's first name correctly.

    I'm not ancient but I'm old enough to have seen enough of these competing narratives to take a view that can largely be encapsulated as "meh".
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that the Mahdi of Shi'ite Islam was Mirza Husayn Ali.
    But thanks for your thoughts.
    (And i think that YHWH has found a way to tell us about who the next pope really is.)

    Apart from the fact that He can't possibly know, why would He?
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    (And i think that YHWH has found a way to tell us about who the next pope really is.)
    You make it sound like the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator of the universe, has slyly devised a way of tapping His tin cup on the bars of His cell to let us know the plan for the big prison break. (We’re going to hide in the laundry truck - pass it on!)

    If it’s at all important, why not just say who it is? Why all the rigmarole?
  • Dave W wrote: »
    undead_rat wrote: »
    (And i think that YHWH has found a way to tell us about who the next pope really is.)
    If it’s at all important, why not just say who it is? Why all the rigmarole?

    And surely God tells the cardinals during the conclave anyway? :innocent:
  • Dave W wrote: »
    undead_rat wrote: »
    (And i think that YHWH has found a way to tell us about who the next pope really is.)
    If it’s at all important, why not just say who it is? Why all the rigmarole?

    And surely God tells the cardinals during the conclave anyway? :innocent:

    We don't really know what they do in those conclaves. Maybe they sift through the prophecies and argue about their interpretation?
  • mt--

    {Whisper.}

    Psssst. They play Twister, Dungeons & Dragons, and pinball; roller-skate in St. Peter's; dye their hair in freaky colors and patterns, but only where it can't be seen under their hats; send out for hundreds of pizzas, and then go down to Pete's crypt to tell naughty jokes while eating the pizza. Then they go stand beneath a certain bedroom window, and moon the pope.

    IOW, they're frat boys.

    Pass it on.
    ;)
  • I'm reading the Decameron right now and that sounds like something that should show up in a day or two.
  • Dave W wrote: »

    If it’s at all important, why not just say who it is? Why all the rigmarole?

    As I have mentioned, my interpretation is that the phrase, Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves, indicates St. Peter, who will be resurrected to lead his Church in the last days of the world.

  • And surely God tells the cardinals during the conclave anyway? :innocent:

    My opinion is that there will never be another papal conclave due to an ISIS attack against the Catholic Church and the resurrection of St. Peter.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    This is witless, innocent trolling.

    Martini : [rips a cigarette in half] I bet a nickel.
    McMurphy : Dime's the limit, Martini.
    Martini : I bet a dime. [Puts the two halves onto the table]
    McMurphy : This is not a dime, Martini. This is a dime. [shows a whole cigarette] McMurphy : If you break it in half, you don't get two nickels, you get shit. Try and smoke it.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--

    {Whisper.}

    Psssst. They play Twister, Dungeons & Dragons, and pinball; roller-skate in St. Peter's; dye their hair in freaky colors and patterns, but only where it can't be seen under their hats; send out for hundreds of pizzas, and then go down to Pete's crypt to tell naughty jokes while eating the pizza. Then they go stand beneath a certain bedroom window, and moon the pope.
    This is absolutely outrageous and libelous!!! They most certainly do NOT play pinball!

    The rest is pretty accurate, though.

  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    Dave W wrote: »

    If it’s at all important, why not just say who it is? Why all the rigmarole?

    As I have mentioned, my interpretation is that the phrase, Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves, indicates St. Peter, who will be resurrected to lead his Church in the last days of the world.
    Yes, your interpretation. Why not just say St. Peter, along with the names of all the others, instead of this farcical heraldic guessing game? And dates would be nice, too.

    Why all the woo?
  • undead_rat wrote: »

    And surely God tells the cardinals during the conclave anyway? :innocent:

    My opinion is that there will never be another papal conclave due to an ISIS attack against the Catholic Church and the resurrection of St. Peter.

    An opinion based on desperate over-interpretation of a half-arsed prophecy made by a proven liar combined with random snippets of news from fives years ago and geopolitical analysis worthy of Rush Limbaugh on one of his more doped-up days.
  • Lots of us do it. Martin is prophesying a dead cert for Trump ‘24 on another thread. This one’s a bit more baroque, which sounds like an Onion headline when describing something old and Catholic. And the pope is still sh*tting in the woods.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Lots of us do it. Martin is prophesying a dead cert for Trump ‘24 on another thread. This one’s a bit more baroque, which sounds like an Onion headline when describing something old and Catholic. And the pope is still sh*tting in the woods.

    Martin's doing it to elicit a rational alternative as there will be no conviction in the Senate or anywhere else. The best hope is boycott; that no brand will support Trump. A forlorn hope up to and including Bible belt brand level. And then there's all the widows mites. What can stop him, O Israel?
  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--

    {Whisper.}

    Psssst. They play Twister, Dungeons & Dragons, and pinball; roller-skate in St. Peter's; dye their hair in freaky colors and patterns, but only where it can't be seen under their hats; send out for hundreds of pizzas, and then go down to Pete's crypt to tell naughty jokes while eating the pizza. Then they go stand beneath a certain bedroom window, and moon the pope.
    This is absolutely outrageous and libelous!!! They most certainly do NOT play pinball!

    The rest is pretty accurate, though.

    I've seen the Father Ted Christmas special - I know what goes on!
  • mark in manchester--
    And the pope is still sh*tting in the woods.

    Does that mean the bear is now Catholic?

    (For those who don't know: if you're talking with someone who says/asks something really obvious, you can reply with "Is the Pope Catholic? Does a bear sh*t in the woods?" I think they were originally separate comments. I know I've heard the first one on its own.)
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