Church Covid-19 workarounds

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  • (Missed edit window). Our denomination is congregationalist, so "Head Office" can't tell us what to do. However they can give us a Very Strong Frown: https://www.baptist.org.uk/Groups/338267/Essential_Guidance.aspx

  • This CofE statement following the PM's advice to lock down may not be telling churches to close, but it's definitely not encouraging churches to remain open:
    “However, some may feel that it is currently better not to attend in person, and there will be parishes which decide to offer only digital services for the time-being. Clergy who have concerns, and others who are shielding, should take particular care and stay at home.

    also this guidance (pdf) outlining what is and isn't permitted.
  • I've waited until this weekend to see if we receive any further direction from Head Office (which AFAIK we haven't) before telling FInC of my concerns.
    Are you a Church Warden or a member of PCC? If so, then I think you have a moral duty to do so.

    After what was said before, I don't think Bishops will dare tell churches to close.

    No, I'm neither a Churchwarden, nor on the PCC - but I am a licensed Lay Reader (aka Blue-Scarfed Menace), and I think you're right about the moral duty. I've been fretting for a few days...

    I have, in fact, just now sent off The E-Mail to FatherInCharge, with copies to the Churchwarden (we only have one at the moment) and the PCC Secretary.

    As to being told to close, I understand that the Suffragan Bishop of Barking, and the acting Bishop of Chelmsford, have both strongly advised churches in the worst-affected areas of East London and South Essex to close.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited January 10
    I have, in fact, just now sent off The E-Mail to FatherInCharge, with copies to the Churchwarden (we only have one at the moment) and the PCC Secretary.
    I'm sure you've done the right thing.


    [edit: code]

  • This CofE statement following the PM's advice to lock down may not be telling churches to close, but it's definitely not encouraging churches to remain open:
    “However, some may feel that it is currently better not to attend in person, and there will be parishes which decide to offer only digital services for the time-being. Clergy who have concerns, and others who are shielding, should take particular care and stay at home.

    also this guidance (pdf) outlining what is and isn't permitted.

    Yes - it's perhaps translated as *You can stay open, but we'd rather you didn't*, which I think @Baptist Trainfan said was the meaning of the Welsh Government's guidance!
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 10
    I have, in fact, just now sent off The E-Mail to FatherInCharge, with copies to the Churchwarden (we only have one at the moment) and the PCC Secretary.
    I'm sure you've done the right thing.

    I certainly feel easier in my own mind. Over to FInC (along with the Churchwarden and PCC, too, of course).

    [Edit: code]
  • Chelmsford statement - you do know that Barking is one of the area dioceses of Chelmsford and that the Bishop of Barking is an Area Bishop?

    Brentwood and Thurrock, both in Chelmsford but in Bradford Area, have been two of the district councils with the highest rates of Covid infection recently, the third, Epping Forest, is in Barking, also in Chelmsford Diocese.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 9
    Yes, though I used the perhaps old-fashioned term *Suffragan Bishop*!

    The thing is that we here in North Kent, close to plague-ridden London, are not that far behind the areas you refer to, infection-wise. Hence my feeling that maybe it would be more responsible of us to voluntarily follow the lead of those across the Thames.

    Incidentally, FatherInCharge defends himself by saying that no-one is forced to attend any service, which is, of course, true. I, however, have repeated my view that he should be more concerned with asking people to Stay At Home (see Professor Whitty and the latest government video).

    Quod dixi, dixi. (What I have said, I have said)

  • Pseudo OrganistPseudo Organist Shipmate Posts: 34
    We are remaining open just for one service a week, our 11.00am Parish Mass on Sundays. All midweek services have been suspended until further notice.

    We have a large Victorian building and are currently only getting about 12 people on a Sunday morning and so have plenty of space to spread out. It’s the same group of people every week with very few visitors and they are being very sensible with social distancing and quickly leaving after the service without mingling. After the service we just turn the heating and lights off and extinguish the candles and all leave the building as it is with no tidying up and touching things. One of the churchwardens then goes in midweek, tidies up and sets everything up for the following Sunday. The church remains locked for the rest of the time.

    Most of our current 12 people are elderly and vulnerable including a retired priest celebrating. They are all very careful, and for some of them it is now the once a week occasion that they are actually leaving their homes and seeing people, even if it is only a polite socially distanced wave. It does worry me a bit that we are still opening but perhaps it is providing one relatively safe place they can go to each week and therefore could be meeting an important need.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 9
    We could do the same, although our congregation is generally somewhat younger, I think. Not many visitors, but not the same 15-20 peeps or so each week, either.

    I await a response from Churchwarden and PCC Secretary! I agree that it's important, for the sake of some, and as a Christian witness, to have open doors, but OTOH there is a responsibility to be as careful as possible.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Chelmsford statement - you do know that Barking is one of the area dioceses of Chelmsford and that the Bishop of Barking is an Area Bishop?

    Brentwood and Thurrock, both in Chelmsford but in Bradford Area, have been two of the district councils with the highest rates of Covid infection recently, the third, Epping Forest, is in Barking, also in Chelmsford Diocese.

    Barking is an Episcopal Area within the Diocese of Chelmsford (rather than an ‘area diocese’) for which the suffragan Bishop of Barking has episcopal responsibility, so he is also referred to as an Area Bishop. And the current Area Bishop of Barking is also acting bishop of Chelmsford.

    Brentwood and Thurrock are in the Bradwell Area of Chelmsford Diocese. Bradford (in West Yorkshire) was formerly a diocese in its own right, but is now one of the Episcopal Areas in the Diocese of Leeds
  • I know that one of the reasons which made a church near here decide to close was the knowledge some vulnerable folk felt an obligation to attend, even though they'd been told they needn't.
  • Hmm. That may be a consideration with just one or two of our people, but that church's decision shows a high degree of Christian concern IMHO.

    Difficult times.
  • Apologies @Bishops Finger, you did say Suffragan Bishop and I missed it. I've also not been paying enough attention to notice the newly appointed Bishop of Chelmsford is not yet in place so it's still the Bishop of Barking as acting bishop.

    Apologies @BroJames I always mix the fords and wells up but I'm normally better at double checking (Bradford on Avon is the one that I know better than the one in Yorkshire).
  • Hmm. That may be a consideration with just one or two of our people, but that church's decision shows a high degree of Christian concern IMHO.
    Early on in Covidtide, the Session of our church spent a good chunk of time discussing the discontinuation of in-person services and other restrictions on our life together from a theological perspective rather than a “what the Governor says” perspective. That is to say, while we certainly are prepared and believe ourselves obliged to follow government recommendations, we looked through the lens of what our faith tell us about how we need to respond. We decided the bottom line is “love your neighbor as yourself,” which necessitates showing as much (or more) concern for the health and well-being of others, especially the more vulnerable among us, as of ourselves. And that in turn has meant we take government recommendations as a starting point.

  • Well said @Nick Tamen , and thank you for that useful perspective.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited January 10
    First Zoom service this morning, seemed to go OK (with a couple of bumps at the start). That's paralleled by a pre-recorded FB version and paper transcripts.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    My local cathedral (Winchester) is now limiting public services to a midweek noon Eucharist and a 10am Sunday Eucharist, though it is also open for private prayer. It was still holding public Evensong seevices until worryingly recently though, which has kept me away given that I have an underlying condition and there are a lot of local schools involved with choral services. Most local churches have suspended public services, mostly due to smaller buildings - my parish church is Saxon and doesn't have the space for socially distanced services that are safe.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 14
    Nearly all the Anglican churches in our Deanery (mostly urban/suburban) are now closed for public worship, but are providing services online.

    Our Place is still open! - for a daily Mass, as well as the Sunday Mass - but, as I've said before, the small numbers attending, and the space available, probably means it's OK...

    The Sunday Mass is livestreamed on Facebook, although last week's offering was a bit clunky, due to problems with people not checking the sound system and mikes beforehand (Father, I'm looking at you... :wink: ).

  • Our Place is still open! - for a daily Mass, as well as the Sunday Mass - but, as I've said before, the small numbers attending, and the space available, probably means it's OK...
    Are the general public aware that numbers are small? Seeing someone go in may lead to an assumption of any and hence not a great witness.

    When you get the first case linked to the attendance at mass, what will you do? How will you respond to the local paper working you over?

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Our Place is still open! - for a daily Mass, as well as the Sunday Mass - but, as I've said before, the small numbers attending, and the space available, probably means it's OK...
    Are the general public aware that numbers are small? Seeing someone go in may lead to an assumption of any and hence not a great witness.

    When you get the first case linked to the attendance at mass, what will you do? How will you respond to the local paper working you over?
    The local rag would have to prove it wasn't caught in Asda.
  • Our Place is still open! - for a daily Mass, as well as the Sunday Mass - but, as I've said before, the small numbers attending, and the space available, probably means it's OK...
    Are the general public aware that numbers are small? Seeing someone go in may lead to an assumption of any and hence not a great witness.

    When you get the first case linked to the attendance at mass, what will you do? How will you respond to the local paper working you over?

    Well, it's not a case of what I will do, but what the priest-in-charge has to say or do (I think you realise that).

    He Has Been Warned, along the lines you yourself mentioned earlier in this thread. More than that I cannot do, as there has been no directive from our Diocesan Bishop to cease public worship.

    Mind you, I'm told that there were only 10 in church this morning (in spite of it being a fine sunny day), so people are, I think, voting with their feet, as it were, and Staying At Home.
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Our Place is still open! - for a daily Mass, as well as the Sunday Mass - but, as I've said before, the small numbers attending, and the space available, probably means it's OK...
    Are the general public aware that numbers are small? Seeing someone go in may lead to an assumption of any and hence not a great witness.

    When you get the first case linked to the attendance at mass, what will you do? How will you respond to the local paper working you over?
    The local rag would have to prove it wasn't caught in Asda.

    Oddly enough, the local Asda is only 5 minutes' brisk walk away...
  • The latest, I think, on the Scottish Church situation.

    The Piskies, of course, are just a tiny player in this game which I guess is why we're not being name-checked at all here! But here's the Primus's response to all this.

    To my mind, it looks like some church leaders imagine their congregational worship to be more 'essential' than the action of temporarily not encouraging vulnerable to travel abroad and potentially contract a deadly disease. Must be bloody good worship if you're willing to put your flock's lives on the line for the sake of it, until things are settled and safer.

    As a worship leader, of course, I would say that congregational fellowship in the flesh is incredibly, vitally important. But that would be when the world isn't being besieged by a bloody out of control virus. Just at this moment in time I can't see where the love for their people is in a situation where you are effectively guilting people into exposing themselves to danger at the height of a pandemic.

    It's not as if you're asking people to continue faithfully witnessing, at danger to themselves, in the face of human opposition or persecution which is what numerous Christians have been doing throughout their history. I really get the idea that some of these church leaders imagine themselves to be in a kind of martyrdom 'fighting' the virus and 'fighting' the oppressive Government who don't like Christianity. A kind of persecution delusion.

    We closed a week before we had to, and when we're permitted to re-open, we will. But I don't think the Scottish Government is singling the churches out for unfair treatment here. And as for the nuisance value of suing the Government, if they go ahead with it - what a needless and possibly damaging distraction to the wider community.

    The whining about not being able to minister to people because they can't meet in the flesh for services, coupled with the notion that what they offer in their church worship is more vitally important for people's welfare than momentarily keeping safe at home from a virus, I find both arrogantly self-centred and frankly ignorant of how a virus works. In terms of 'essential' pastoral visiting, this is still permitted, though not surprisingly many of the vulnerable at home folk would rather NOT see their minister coming through the door just for now! I don't underestimate how serious it is that people can't meet to worship under one roof - not by any means. But a lot of this ranting is coming across as 'if my people can't see me at the front of church being a leader, what's my purpose and what am I here for?'

    I heard, by the way, on Radio 4 this morning that about half CofE parishes have elected not to stay open.
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    The latest, I think, on the Scottish Church situation.

    The Piskies, of course, are just a tiny player in this game which I guess is why we're not being name-checked at all here! But here's the Primus's response to all this.

    That doesn't in the least surprise me. I have a lot of time for the Primus.


  • Same here, and what @Anselmina said.

    Not sure about 50% of C of E churches being closed - that's possibly an underestimate. In our mostly-urban Deanery of 11 churches and a Bishop's Mission Order thingy, at least 6 of the churches (possibly more) and the BMO are operating online only.
  • Yes, I saw that, and realise that is why CofS ministers had a letter emailed last week which included advice about not going against the Kirk’s official line, which, as the article says, is not to oppose the shutdown. At the time I wondered what was up.

    Mind you, I do wonder what kind of congregations we will be left with. The habit of attendance has been well and truly broken.
  • Yes, that is a genuine concern. Here one or two have expressed surprise that, having stayed open at Christmas and afterwards when infection rates were very high, we then elected to close as they were coming down. There were in fact a number of reasons; but the infection rate is now less than half what it was at Christmas and even the First Minister has made a number of noises about the Govt slightly lifting its feet off the brake pedal. We'll certainly be closed next Sunday and probably the one following, but after that ...?
  • Cathscats wrote: »

    Mind you, I do wonder what kind of congregations we will be left with. The habit of attendance has been well and truly broken.

    I have heard that fear expressed around here, too, and I wonder if it has something to do with FatherInCharge's determination to keep public worship going, however few actually turn up.

    The task of post-Covid rebuilding will be a hard one.


  • Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes, I saw that, and realise that is why CofS ministers had a letter emailed last week which included advice about not going against the Kirk’s official line, which, as the article says, is not to oppose the shutdown. At the time I wondered what was up.

    Mind you, I do wonder what kind of congregations we will be left with. The habit of attendance has been well and truly broken.

    This is a real concern which dominates many a conversation with church members and fellow clergy. The short answer is 'don't know'.

    Sadly, there will be church buildings that will not re-open, and there will be congregations significantly, maybe fatally depleted. What this wretched virus will do to the institutional Church remains to be seen. What it does by way of putting the Body of Christ through a 'purifying fire' kind of experience might be viewed in a different light. The Body is eternal, so it's the Institution that will have to rise to the challenge, and maybe we won't be able to do that satisfactorily. (But maybe we will?!)
  • In some ways it might be better to build an inclusive and cohesive community online which meets together regularly rather than a sparsely attended one in person. By concentrating on the public space it might mean others who can’t attend drift away instead due to lack of personal connection. Obviously this might be difficult with older, non-techie congregations though.
    Our church has not met in person since March. The leadership made a decision not to stream services but to instead have Zoom calls with multiple and varied people contributing from their homes (we consequently organise our services with weekly invitation via email rather than openly available, due to privacy and safeguarding issues). Obviously our congregation is larger and younger than average but it does promote a sense of connection that we are all meeting together and can see each other’s faces, the children show off their art and activities, and we speak together in break out rooms afterwards.
    As mentioned previously, it does also help that we can take communion in our own homes.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Yes, communion is the big spanner in the works, as is things like baptism and confirmation along with Ash Wednesday. Doing those things at home would not be an option for me even if it was permitted, except for baptism along the usual emergency guidelines.
  • We had an adult baptism in December, it was done in church (we have a pool) using the C of E guidelines and streamed in the service. It did feel good to see a Baptism, in these dark days.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Ah of course, I forgot that baptism would be different. That sounds great!
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am soon due to attend a zoom meeting to discuss worship styles as part of a series of vision meetings - under various headings. I think our vicar was planning to do this anyway, having completed a year as incumbent, but of course now there is a completely new situation.
  • A new situation indeed, and not perhaps the best time (IMHO) to plan too many changes - although a general look at worship styles could well be interesting and productive. Let us know what happens @Puzzler!

    I learned today that our Cathedral has closed completely to visitors (apart from the vaccination centre in the crypt!). They are, however, livestreaming Evensong on Thursdays and a Eucharist on Sundays.
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    Currently, all services, prayer meetings, home groups, Alpha etc run on line. Our PCC is beginning to discuss what mix of in-person and online we should adopt once meetings with minimal restrictions become possible.
  • I think many churches - of all shades - will do well to consider how best to continue with online provision, even when regular public worship is recommenced.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Yes, communion is the big spanner in the works, as is things like baptism and confirmation along with Ash Wednesday. Doing those things at home would not be an option for me even if it was permitted, except for baptism along the usual emergency guidelines.

    And anything for children online is horrible. We've seen the same with online school - a lot of the older kids do OK, but for little ones, online school, or online Sunday School, is a disaster.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Well, our cathedral has now suspended public worship too - the crypt is prone to flooding so unlikely to be used as a vaccination centre, but there are also many more appropriate local venues that could be used anyway, and there is one set up within the city already via GP surgeries working together. Private prayer is still permitted within limited hours.

    I have to say that the constant chopping and changing is the thing I am finding most difficult, although not being able to access zoom due to poor-quality internet in my building (which I don't have any ability to change, I don't have access to the router) is not exactly helpful either since it effectively cuts me off from church entirely. The demographics of where I live being what they are, digital poverty is perhaps not a huge concern locally - but it still exists and it must be very hard for families to have to choose between church and school if they have limited data available. As the education sector's lockdown problems are reminding us all, it isn't just older people without internet.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    If your church is using Zoom, it can be accessed (for sound at least) by ordinary telephone through ordinary landline numbers. Depending on what contract you have with your telephone provider, you may even be able to access it at no additional cost provided you don’t stay on a call for more than an hour.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    That may be an option for me, although I haven't been able to join a church of my own as such due to lockdown (as I moved house just before the first lockdown) so I won't know who is talking! It also can't be a great option for children's services and Sunday School. But I believe the cathedral are livestreaming via their website rather than Zoom.

    My internet is OK for other types of streaming, but not strong enough for Zoom - I watch Netflix etc via my laptop without an issue, so Zoom must use a lot of bandwidth. Obviously there are limited resources for churches but I can't help but wonder if a Discord server wouldn't be better as it is a mostly typed chat based client with the option of voice channels and livestreaming. There are many people like me who find typed conversation between lots of people easier to keep up with than video chat. For those wondering, Discord is an app started for people playing video games, to allow people playing as a group to chat while they played, but is now popular with lots of people and can work almost like a WhatsApp/livestreaming hybrid.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 19
    Without getting too technical, I find that my 1-to-1 Pilates session on Zoom sometimes flashes up a warning about low bandwidth. I'm using Windows 10 on a Hewlett Packard laptop.

    Not sure what I can do about it, IYSWIM, though it hasn't actually caused a session to suddenly stop!

    @Pomona - if (as I seem to recall) you live in *Wessex*, Winchester Cathedral is currently livestreaming services on its website, and also on YouTube. The latter is useful for catching up, as it were, or for viewing at a more convenient time, but I don't know how long the services remain available.

  • Pomona wrote: »
    Well, our cathedral has now suspended public worship too - the crypt is prone to flooding so unlikely to be used as a vaccination centre.
    Indeed so: https://tinyurl.com/y45k4yek

  • Here I'm beginning to wonder if we should cautiously work towards reopening in February, as the local rolling 7-day infection rate is now well under half what it was at Christmas (when we were open) and steadily falling. Of course the rate may suddenly jump up again ...
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited January 19
    Pomona wrote: »
    Obviously there are limited resources for churches but I can't help but wonder if a Discord server wouldn't be better as it is a mostly typed chat based client with the option of voice channels and livestreaming. There are many people like me who find typed conversation between lots of people easier to keep up with than video chat.

    I don't use discord, but we use slack all the time for work (and slack and discord are both basically IRC with knobs on) and I agree with you that it's easier to have chaotic anything-goes chat with something like that than with zoom (the close to 1s loop delay on zoom makes social chatting quite difficult). On the flip side, typing on a phone or tablet is very hard (about 1/3 of our usual zoomers use phones or tablets rather than computers), and many of our more elderly parishioners aren't comfortable typing. So despite the somewhat stilted nature of zoom chat, I think on balance we do better having "coffee hour" on zoom rather than typing at each other. If your congregation tends to be younger, I could easily believe typing might work better for chat.

    I'm struggling to understand how typing would work for worship, though. What would that look like - a voice stream of a handful of people leading the service, and a bunch of other people typing "Amen" in a chat box? I'm not really grasping how you'd use a chat server in worship - can you explain a bit?

    (I think the issue for zoom isn't so much bandwidth as latency. Netflix, and other streaming services, buffer the data, so as long as the average bandwidth keeps up with what's required, you don't see problems. Zoom, obviously, is live, so it can't buffer, which means that you see every momentary glitch.)
  • On the subject of Zoom, I'm looking for some advice about streaming a service as a one-off.

    We want to do one of Dragonlet 3's christening, so that relatives can watch even though being there in person is currently impossible due to travel.

    St Quacks hasn't been streaming, which apparently is at least partly because the wireless signal is lousy around the altar. It's fine by the font though.

    If I have a choice of platforms, including a Zoom subscription, albeit some of them aren't on Facebook, and we'll probably have to film on a phone, but want to control who gets the link, what's my best bet?
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    If I have a choice of platforms, including a Zoom subscription, albeit some of them aren't on Facebook, and we'll probably have to film on a phone, but want to control who gets the link, what's my best bet?

    Honestly, my recommendation is to video, and post the video afterwards, rather than trying to do it live, because there's so many possible glitches that can get you live, and you don't want to spend Dragonlet's baptism worrying about the livestream.

    If you really want live, I'd probably do zoom, because I've done zoom before and I wouldn't need to worry about whether I was doing it right, but I'd really try and have a second phone just recording, in case some of your family miss it / whatever.

    (#1 child was confirmed this summer. A laptop set up in the church meant that families could "be there" on zoom. Given that our family is 4000 miles away, this was actually better than pre-Covid!)
  • Bear in mind too that, unless you can pick up sound direct from microphones and the church's sound system, the audio quality will probably be awful.
  • (Whatever you decide, do a trial run first, so you can iron out the kinks.)
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    BF - yes, Winchester is streaming their services via their website but the post-service mingling is being done virtually via Zoom. So I will just skip that I think - I currently use mobile phone data (not on PAYG) for my weekly Slimming World meeting but I can't afford to do both. I find the glitching sounds really hard on my misophonia too.

    Leorning - I suppose I was imagining a sort of dual room option with some people using a video/sound option and some people using a typed option. I think for me it's having to passively watch a service like it's a TV show that makes streamed services harder to connect with. Obviously I appreciate that churches have limited options and are doing their best!
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