I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it. In fact, speaking as someone who struggles with this kind of understanding myself, it generally makes them more defensive, more convinced that other people are unreasonable while they are the reasonable one, and a lot less likely to listen.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it. In fact, speaking as someone who struggles with this kind of understanding myself, it generally makes them more defensive, more convinced that other people are unreasonable while they are the reasonable one, and a lot less likely to listen.
Well, I'm not entirely sure of your characterisation, not least because you yourself are openly admitting your own struggles.
There must be some difference between a person such as you who says "I'm not so good at this", and a person who is convinced of their own rightness.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it. In fact, speaking as someone who struggles with this kind of understanding myself, it generally makes them more defensive, more convinced that other people are unreasonable while they are the reasonable one, and a lot less likely to listen.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it.
Do you have any advice as to what might work positively?
I have been trying to couch all my criticism in terms not of, this is how you are, but rather, this is how you are coming across.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it. In fact, speaking as someone who struggles with this kind of understanding myself, it generally makes them more defensive, more convinced that other people are unreasonable while they are the reasonable one, and a lot less likely to listen.
Well, I'm not entirely sure of your characterisation, not least because you yourself are openly admitting your own struggles.
There must be some difference between a person such as you who says "I'm not so good at this", and a person who is convinced of their own rightness.
Yes. Much studying of human psychology, much reading about communication norms, and one's own culture and class system, much self analysis, many hours spent turning oneself inside out. Much (if autism happens to be your diagnosis - this is specific to me, not suggesting it for anyone else) reading of why autistic people can be so uncomfortable to be around, so annoying, so ostracised, what we are doing that is inadvertently making people angry and wanting to taunt us. It's exhausting, time-consuming, and can be soul destroying. It can eventually lead people to distance themselves from groups anyway, because no matter how much they try, this shit still happens.
But yes, this is where I am right now, with this self understanding, now I'm nearly 50 and have been privileged to have training and studying that has increased my self-understanding. It is not where I have always been. And in my experience, the way people are speaking to this chap here in this thread has, for me, never, ever been helpful or done anything to increase my social understanding or help my behaviour conform to group norms. Unless you count driving me away from a group. And if that is what people are trying to do (because if, as quetzlcoatal is saying, you are not actually trying to help him understand, then what other purpose is there?) then seriously, shame on you all.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it.
Do you have any advice as to what might work positively?
I have been trying to couch all my criticism in terms not of, this is how you are, but rather, this is how you are coming across.
Maybe don't focus on how a person is coming across, because they may not care. Not in a nasty way, but because they don't see the importance of it. When I was new to Ship of Fools, I had someone giving me all sorts of advice on how to be respected on the Ship, and the behaviours and characteristics people value and admire. The person was trying to help, but I hadn't asked for help, and I found it patronising and full of assumptions. I wasn't here to be respected or to impress anyone. I was here to be me.
Maybe just a straightforward focus on consequences of particular behaviours, along the lines of: 'These are the norms in this particular group. You may not agree with them or like them, and that is your prerogative, but because they are the norms, this is what people expect, and if you don't follow the norms, this is what will happen.'
I would add, if a person wants a rule given on something they have been pulled up on, then don't assume they are being deliberately obtuse. It may well be that is how their mind works, and there is nothing wrong with that. If I am pulled up on something I don't see a rule for, I also need a rule to be given, even if it comes with a 'but there are contexts in which this doesn't apply, eg [specific example].' It is not helpful in any way to shame people for this, just because you have the privilege of being able to understand and adapt to context so easily. Explain why you different-brained people don't usually give a rule, and then give a specific general guideline in place of a rule.
I just wanted him to stop. I see this as analogous to a naughty child. OK, you can explain things, but initially you might want to get them to stop. In fact, I would do this sometimes in therapy, if somebody was being very objectionable; we'll get onto the explanation stuff later, but right now, just fucking stop.
I just wanted him to stop. I see this as analogous to a naughty child. OK, you can explain things, but initially you might want to get them to stop. In fact, I would do this sometimes in therapy, if somebody was being very objectionable; we'll get onto the explanation stuff later, but right now, just fucking stop.
Telling patients/clients to fucking stop? That's not normal behaviour, though it's been shown that patients being socialized toward the worldview, values and ideas of the therapist occurs. But therapists talking like this is professional failure. They're repeating the same unsatisfactory interpersonal exchanges the person "pulls for" from others in their normal discourse. With one of the more important things that therapists and psychologists offer being someone who will actually listen, without reiterating and repeating dysfunction.
You'll not get Fr T nor anyone else to change by expressing the same frustration. He's got something to say, annoys when saying it, isn't socialized re the forum"s culture. The ship does throw such people overboard or they slip over the side themselves. It'd be nice for him to engage differently. But this isn't psychotherapy.
@NOprophet_NØprofit— The ship can't afford to pay for Fr T's psychotherapy. People have tried to be nice and it didn't work. People have gotten angry. They're just being them, to borrow a phrase from @fineline.
@fineline — There is no rule. What we've got going on is:
An officer of the ship: There is no rule.
Fr T: Give me a rule
Officer: There is no rule
Fr T: All I'm asking for is a rule
Officer: There is no rule. Please stop. Rinse. Repeat.
Fr T is sounding like a petulant 4-year-old. Which gets tiring. And as for the broken-clock playground taunt of "Your mother must be so proud of you" (admittedly closer to 10 years old than 4) — that could cause anyone to slap.
I would point out generally that mocking and insulting someone for not having the social understanding and sensitivity you deem all decent people should have doesn't make them magically acquire it. In fact, speaking as someone who struggles with this kind of understanding myself, it generally makes them more defensive, more convinced that other people are unreasonable while they are the reasonable one, and a lot less likely to listen.
I'm not convinced that Fr Teilhard's problems are solely down to a lack of social understanding. For one thing, he's claimed several times to be a Catholic priest, which is a job that requires some level of people skills. For another, I think there is a difference between not understanding what someone is saying and blatantly ignoring what someone is saying, and for me most of the irritation of his posts arises from the latter.
I'm not the most socially aware person. I remember on GCSE Exam Results Day when I was about 16, a friend rang to ask what grades I'd got, and I told him. My mum was horrified afterwards to discover I hadn't thought to ask him what he'd got. As far as I was concerned I had provided the information that was requested, and therefore fulfilled my half of the conversation. The social rule that makes this somewhat self-centred behaviour is unwritten and unspoken. (And for that reason, I've defended Fr Teilhard on the Styx regarding the unwritten and unspoken rule about resurrecting threads.)
But ISTM that the basic problem with most of Fr Teilhard's interactions is that he just isn't listening. And 'listen to the other person' isn't some mysterious unspoken and unwritten rule. ISTM a fairly basic rule.
I think one difficulty is that he comes across as being deliberately provocative and insulting, and playing with us as a cat might. As opposed to someone who simply doesn't understand how to relate to people in this venue.
I really do not understand why people come to Hell and are offended by the language. It is there in the rules. The ship is massive. Hell is the only place swearing is totally acceptable. If you are not keen either live with it or move on. I am not one to swear much at all, but rules are rules.
Yeah ... *shrug* ...
"If you don't accept being *bullied* then stay away from the Playground ..."
Firstly as someone who was very badly bullied at school to a point where I almost stopped breathing completely because bullies tightened my tie around my neck and other things I know what it is like to be bullied, so don’t try and pull that one. This is not the play ground it is more like club. The rules are clear. Very clear. If you feel bullied you have plenty of opportunities to take it up with the Admins.
RE: "Your mother must be so proud of you" comment. Fr. T. comes across as a self-important jerk who deliberately takes offense at innocuous comments but is oblivious about how his comments can be hurtful, ignorant, and outright nonsensical. If he continues on his merry way, he'll have alienated everyone here and will either flounce away in an histrionic manner or...he'll get shown to the shore.
Especially, I would have thought, if you're a Catholic priest.
The qualifications required to perform the duties of a Catholic Priest is the capacity to say mass. Good Priests will have all the skills required to run a Parish and they are the Patriarchs of the congregation in the full sense of the word, within the confines of the Church's organisation. If the Priest has the capacity, what he says goes. That's mostly why there is a very strong anti-clerical streak in Irish Catholicism as practiced here, along with the "but the Priest is always right" streak, that deadly belief that made Priestly abuse so easy. It is also the grist to Father Ted's humour mill.
Fineline might well be making an astute set of observations in this thread. Those of us who live with mental health issues (I have no experience of autism and can't comment) are often very difficult people to get along with.
Comments
We shouldn't discount the possibility that his attention seeking behaviour is because she didn't fight the urge.
Well, I'm not entirely sure of your characterisation, not least because you yourself are openly admitting your own struggles.
There must be some difference between a person such as you who says "I'm not so good at this", and a person who is convinced of their own rightness.
But I'm not trying to help him.
I have been trying to couch all my criticism in terms not of, this is how you are, but rather, this is how you are coming across.
Yes. Much studying of human psychology, much reading about communication norms, and one's own culture and class system, much self analysis, many hours spent turning oneself inside out. Much (if autism happens to be your diagnosis - this is specific to me, not suggesting it for anyone else) reading of why autistic people can be so uncomfortable to be around, so annoying, so ostracised, what we are doing that is inadvertently making people angry and wanting to taunt us. It's exhausting, time-consuming, and can be soul destroying. It can eventually lead people to distance themselves from groups anyway, because no matter how much they try, this shit still happens.
But yes, this is where I am right now, with this self understanding, now I'm nearly 50 and have been privileged to have training and studying that has increased my self-understanding. It is not where I have always been. And in my experience, the way people are speaking to this chap here in this thread has, for me, never, ever been helpful or done anything to increase my social understanding or help my behaviour conform to group norms. Unless you count driving me away from a group. And if that is what people are trying to do (because if, as quetzlcoatal is saying, you are not actually trying to help him understand, then what other purpose is there?) then seriously, shame on you all.
Maybe don't focus on how a person is coming across, because they may not care. Not in a nasty way, but because they don't see the importance of it. When I was new to Ship of Fools, I had someone giving me all sorts of advice on how to be respected on the Ship, and the behaviours and characteristics people value and admire. The person was trying to help, but I hadn't asked for help, and I found it patronising and full of assumptions. I wasn't here to be respected or to impress anyone. I was here to be me.
Maybe just a straightforward focus on consequences of particular behaviours, along the lines of: 'These are the norms in this particular group. You may not agree with them or like them, and that is your prerogative, but because they are the norms, this is what people expect, and if you don't follow the norms, this is what will happen.'
You'll not get Fr T nor anyone else to change by expressing the same frustration. He's got something to say, annoys when saying it, isn't socialized re the forum"s culture. The ship does throw such people overboard or they slip over the side themselves. It'd be nice for him to engage differently. But this isn't psychotherapy.
@fineline — There is no rule. What we've got going on is:
An officer of the ship: There is no rule.
Fr T: Give me a rule
Officer: There is no rule
Fr T: All I'm asking for is a rule
Officer: There is no rule. Please stop.
Rinse. Repeat.
Fr T is sounding like a petulant 4-year-old. Which gets tiring. And as for the broken-clock playground taunt of "Your mother must be so proud of you" (admittedly closer to 10 years old than 4) — that could cause anyone to slap.
You haven't a clue what I know and how I know it. None at all. If you really want to discuss, you may PM. We've clashed a few times over this.
@mousethief True. It'll be the psychotherapy of everyday life, or forum life.
I'm not convinced that Fr Teilhard's problems are solely down to a lack of social understanding. For one thing, he's claimed several times to be a Catholic priest, which is a job that requires some level of people skills. For another, I think there is a difference between not understanding what someone is saying and blatantly ignoring what someone is saying, and for me most of the irritation of his posts arises from the latter.
I'm not the most socially aware person. I remember on GCSE Exam Results Day when I was about 16, a friend rang to ask what grades I'd got, and I told him. My mum was horrified afterwards to discover I hadn't thought to ask him what he'd got. As far as I was concerned I had provided the information that was requested, and therefore fulfilled my half of the conversation. The social rule that makes this somewhat self-centred behaviour is unwritten and unspoken. (And for that reason, I've defended Fr Teilhard on the Styx regarding the unwritten and unspoken rule about resurrecting threads.)
But ISTM that the basic problem with most of Fr Teilhard's interactions is that he just isn't listening. And 'listen to the other person' isn't some mysterious unspoken and unwritten rule. ISTM a fairly basic rule.
Given Fr. T's admitted age, the psychotherapy of everyday life doesn't seem to have done much good in this area.
What he's really like, I don't know.
Quite true.
Firstly as someone who was very badly bullied at school to a point where I almost stopped breathing completely because bullies tightened my tie around my neck and other things I know what it is like to be bullied, so don’t try and pull that one. This is not the play ground it is more like club. The rules are clear. Very clear. If you feel bullied you have plenty of opportunities to take it up with the Admins.
I'm sorry you went through that.
Either way, The Ship will carry on, thankfully.
The qualifications required to perform the duties of a Catholic Priest is the capacity to say mass. Good Priests will have all the skills required to run a Parish and they are the Patriarchs of the congregation in the full sense of the word, within the confines of the Church's organisation. If the Priest has the capacity, what he says goes. That's mostly why there is a very strong anti-clerical streak in Irish Catholicism as practiced here, along with the "but the Priest is always right" streak, that deadly belief that made Priestly abuse so easy. It is also the grist to Father Ted's humour mill.
Fineline might well be making an astute set of observations in this thread. Those of us who live with mental health issues (I have no experience of autism and can't comment) are often very difficult people to get along with.