OK, that's my opinion, that a great deal of confusion has been caused by everyone's use of the incorrect 1624 version of Wion's papal prophecies. I take it that you feel that you are not confused at all by anything in them as they are proven be a bunch of malarkey.
Three common reasons are usually given in dismissing Wion's work.
1. It is proven that St. Malachy did not write that prophecies.
---Answer: Fr. Wion had to employ some kind of ruse to avoid being called up by the Roman Inquisition, so he attributed his predictions to St. Malachy and made up 74 predictions based on Panvinius' papal history of 1557. Of course predictions made after the fact are more accurate, but that finding alone does not invalidate the remaining 39.
2. Prediction number 112 for Pope Francis labels him as Petrus Romanus, and he bears no connection to that name.
---Answer: That allegation is based on the abridged version of the prophecies published in 1624. I have already discussed what prediction number 112 for Pope Francis actually looks like, and it does not contain the "Petrus Romanus" title.
3. My mention of predictions that have been fulfilled is "cherry picking," and most of the predictions are obscure and meaningless.
--Answer: Some dramatic predictions are extant in Wion's list such as "Aquila rapax" and "Religio depopulata." These presented excellent opportunities for the entire work to be falsified, but that did not happen. That does not mean that the forum has to accept them as being true either. It only means that they have not been conclusively disproven.
We are now at prediction number 112 for Francis, and that sentence indicates that some kind of persecution will befall the Catholic Church. If that should happen then, I feel that the legitimacy of Fr. Wion's Prophecy of the Popes will have been confirmed.
All i ask is that the forum keep an open mind.
OK, that's my opinion, that a great deal of confusion has been caused by everyone's use of the incorrect 1624 version of Wion's papal prophecies.
Everyone? You might need to qualify that. I would bet the vast majority of “everyone” is either unaware of any version of these prophesies, or doesn’t give them a second thought.
@undead_rat, you’ve started three threads on similar sorts of things—these prophesies, the visions of Pope Pius X and the Shroud of Turin. You’ve been asked multiple times, by me and by others, why you think any of these things matter, and so far you’ve not answered that question. You just keep telling us what other people say or have written about them.
Why do you think these prophesies are worth paying attention to? Why do you think understanding them correctly matters?
I thought that i had answered this, but will try again.
The Prophecy of the Popes together with the (alleged) visions of Pope Pius X, if confirmed, give us a timeline for the Last Days of the World. The Catholic Church will have only one more pope after Francis, and that pope will be St. Peter under whose reign "the city of the seven hills [the earth] will be destroyed, and the terrible Judge [YHWH] will judge his people. The End."
I don't know about you, but the timeline for the end of the world is something that i'd like to know.
The Holy Shroud is the Sign of Jonah and the seal of the Gospel's (as was vehemently denied by my own Episcopal priest.) In confirming the legitimacy of Rabbi Yeshu's teachings, it also confirms Jewish prophecy, and that prophecy indicates that the so-called "second coming" is the arrival of YHWH on earth through the mechanism of a global nuclear war.
I find that also important.
I thought that i had answered this, but will try again.
The Prophecy of the Popes together with the (alleged) visions of Pope Pius X, if confirmed, give us a timeline for the Last Days of the World. . . .
I don't know about you, but the timeline for the end of the world is something that i'd like to know.
Nope. I don’t care about that at all. I think wondering about it is a complete waste of time, and I think it’s a major distraction from what we’re supposed to be about—loving God, loving neighbor, caring for the sick and hungry and thirsty and naked, proclaiming release to captives and sight to the blind. The end of the world will take care of itself, and we’re told to be ready all the time.
That’s really what I’m asking—why do you think knowing the timeline is important? What difference does having that timeline make? How does knowing it make us better disciples of Christ—the one who told us even he didn’t know the timeline? What difference should it make in how we live our lives?
undead rat: respectfully, the way you keep saying basically the same things over and over, without directly answering questions about why any of this matters in our daily lives, what we're supposed to do about it...comes across as obsessive.
I'm *not* saying you're crazy or anything--just that it's very easy for anyone to get focused on something in a maybe not-so-healthy way. Especially during chaotic, stressful times. I've done it. A whole lot of Shipmates have done it here, over the years, then IMVHO found a little more balance.
There was a TV drama called "Family". Two teen-aged girls, "Buddy" and another, were talking. Buddy had just found out that her friend was from a rich family but covered it up: she would get off the school bus in a not-rich neighborhood and walk home, so she'd fit in more with the other kids. She asked Buddy, "Do you think I'm weird?" Buddy said, "Everybody's weird: different things at different times".
I've really enjoyed your posts (on the Hell thread, IIRC) about your boat project and adventure!
Many Shipmates have some room for discussing and thinking about the religious matters you discuss, whether or not they believe them. But when you tell us it's important for us to know these things, yet consistently won't address *why* they matter in our lives and faiths and futures...it's really frustrating, and hard to engage with you.
We get that the things you're telling us are very important to you. Can you please shift your approach a little bit, and share why you think they matter for *us*?
Thanks for listening. And please continue your boating posts!!!
Yes. It seems to me bordering on disrespectful, if not worse, to assume that you can work out a timeline when Jesus specifically told us "no one knows" and to ignore those who say "he is here" or "he is there" as if they had secret knowledge of his return. Better to get on with what he concluded: "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Yeah, that was one thing that really shocked me about the Evangelical followers of a certain person who just retired. To decide that that person was some sort of Second Coming, an anointed prophet, or whatever...when Jesus was so very, very specific about not going down that rabbit hole...
The thread veered into a discussion about what kind of boat the disciples might have used on the Sea of Galilee. Then undead rat added their experience:
I built a boat boat in the 1970's. It was 35 feet long, 3 ft. wide, 4 ft. deep, and had a 20 ft. pontoon on one side for stability. Also two sails and two rudders. I enslaved my younger brother for two years to finish building it, and we took it down the Mississippi to Florida where i started my ten year career as a boat-bum.
There are more posts and discussion about his adventure. A good read!
Yeah, that was one thing that really shocked me about the Evangelical followers of a certain person who just retired. To decide that that person was some sort of Second Coming, an anointed prophet, or whatever...when Jesus was so very, very specific about not going down that rabbit hole...
Yes indeed. And to miss it almost entirely when you-know-who retweeted something that called him the King of Israel and some other God-type title, can't recall what right now!
It must be ignorance. But ignorance sits very oddly on people who are forever going on about minuscule details of the text. I mean, read it already.
Or, if not ignorance, their focus was so much elsewhere that they just didn't catch it. Or maybe didn't want to catch it. ISTM that sometimes, when people focus on the end of the world (in whatever belief system), it's because they either hunger for great change, or simply want out. Like holding on 'til summer vacation.
Problem is, end of the world stories generally involve going through a whole bunch of crap before school is actually out--and you might not like the results.
OK, that's my opinion, that a great deal of confusion has been caused by everyone's use of the incorrect 1624 version of Wion's papal prophecies.
Everyone? You might need to qualify that. I would bet the vast majority of “everyone” is either unaware of any version of these prophesies, or doesn’t give them a second thought.
I think it comes down to the proud mother's boast: "everyone's out of step but my Johnnie".
That joke appeared in a volume called "1001 Jokes For Kids" I had when I was about 7 and it was years before I worked out why it was supposed to be funny (well apart from the policeman being on his head, that seemed explanation enough when I was 7 but by the time I was 9 I was wondering if there was supposed to be more to it).
Most of the jokes were the standard "Knock Knock" and so on but there was also this one:
---
A bishop is visiting a confirmation class, decked out in his episcopal finery.
"I'll start with a simple question," he says, "who am I?"
Silence!
"Come on," he says, a little miffed, "you really ought to know this if you're going to be confirmed. Who am I?"
Silence!
"This is very basic," says the bishop, quite annoyed now, "hasn't the Sunday School taught you anything? Come on now - WHO AM I?"
And a little voice says diffidently: "Um... are you a miserable sinner?"
---
I had absolutely NO IDEA what was going on there so I asked my father, who thought for a couple of minutes then said: "That's quite good but there's no way any child could possibly understand it..." and indeed it took at least a decade for the penny to drop...
That's a nice variation on the childrens' address joke (a long shaggy dog story, here in condensed form) - 'on the way to church I met a little friend - can you guess who he is?......he likes climbing trees....he eats nuts....when he can remember where he put them... (still total silence, getting more desperate)....big bushy tail...often grey, or red'. Finally the little voice 'Please Mr, I know the answer's meant to be Jesus, but it sounds like a squirrel to me'.
That joke appeared in a volume called "1001 Jokes For Kids" I had when I was about 7 and it was years before I worked out why it was supposed to be funny (well apart from the policeman being on his head, that seemed explanation enough when I was 7 but by the time I was 9 I was wondering if there was supposed to be more to it).
Most of the jokes were the standard "Knock Knock" and so on but there was also this one:
---
A bishop is visiting a confirmation class, decked out in his episcopal finery.
"I'll start with a simple question," he says, "who am I?"
Silence!
"Come on," he says, a little miffed, "you really ought to know this if you're going to be confirmed. Who am I?"
Silence!
"This is very basic," says the bishop, quite annoyed now, "hasn't the Sunday School taught you anything? Come on now - WHO AM I?"
And a little voice says diffidently: "Um... are you a miserable sinner?"
---
I had absolutely NO IDEA what was going on there so I asked my father, who thought for a couple of minutes then said: "That's quite good but there's no way any child could possibly understand it..." and indeed it took at least a decade for the penny to drop...
I love that! (And any child brought up on the specific Lutheran liturgy that starts out "I, a poor miserable sinner, confess unto thee") would totally get it.
Oh OK! I was unaware of the Lutheran liturgy, although familiar with the phrase "miserable sinners". My eventual take on it was that the bishop is High Church and regards his sacramental role as extremely important; whereas the confirmation class are Evangelical and have barely heard of a bishop, but have been well drilled on sin and grace... So you would have to be aware of the differing theological priorities of two strands of an Anglican or at any rate episcopal church for the joke to work fully...
Or a kid in a fundamentalist church who paid attention to hymns and sermons might be familiar with the phrase and idea--but most likely wouldn't know what a bishop is!
Everyone? You might need to qualify that. I would bet the vast majority of “everyone” is either unaware of any version of these prophesies, or doesn’t give them a second thought.
Why do you think these prophesies are worth paying attention to? Why do you think understanding them correctly matters?
By "everyone," I meant all of those who have heard about the papal prophecies. I obviously did not mean everyone in the whole world. When Francis was elected pope, the prophecies were in the news due to the speculation that he might be the Petrus Romanus of the last prediction.
We have had two good chances to have Wion's mottoes falsified.
The first was in the first decade of the 19th century with "Aquila rapax," and the second was in the second decade of the 20th century with "Religio depopulata."
Now, in the third decade of the 21st century, we have a third chance at falsification with the ominous prediction for Pope Francis. If that prediction comes true, then I will take it as a verification of Wion's last prediction.
(The skeptics will probably call it "cherry picking" again.)
This last prediction assigns a proper name to this last pope, Petrus Romanus. It is the only prediction to do so and, I believe, it must refer to a specific person.
The line:"Peter of Rome, who will feed his sheep . .." appears to be a reference to St. Peter.
An old Christian saying is that St. Peter will return as the last pope to lead us through the Last Days.
I have noticed that many people are expecting the anti-Christ to make his appearance.
If St. Peter manifests himself miraculously as did Jesus, they might take him to be that person. Perhaps he might not announce himself as "St. Peter."
Also given in Wion's last prediction is that the world will be destroyed and that "the terrible Judge will judge his people." That sounds like judgement day to me.
I think that knowing that the next pope is not the anti-Christ and might be St. Peter is important even though I am not Catholic.
... We have had two good chances to have Wion's mottoes falsified.
The first was in the first decade of the 19th century with "Aquila rapax," and the second was in the second decade of the 20th century with "Religio depopulata."
Now, in the third decade of the 21st century, we have a third chance at falsification with the ominous prediction for Pope Francis. If that prediction comes true, then I will take it as a verification of Wion's last prediction. ...
Sorry. Not so. Even without the present pope, there have been 35. That you think 2 out of that 35 are validated doesn't give these alleged prophecies any authority at all.
Besides, those two explanations are pretty far fetched. "Religio depopulata" would fit Pius VII's incumbency just as well if not better than Benedict XV's. The other 33 don't seem to have any bearing on the respective popes they are supposed to apply to, especially when one looks at some of the somewhat nondescript and half-forgotten popes of the C17 and C18. It's even argued that the 75th one, the next after Wion wrote them was either wishful thinking or an attempt to sway things in favour of a different potential candidate than the one that was eventually selected.
Two other queries.
1. In Wionology what is S.R.E. supposed to stand for? and
2. Again in Wionology is there argument about whether it's significant that in some texts 'persecutione' seems to be misspelt?
My apologies @undead_rat but I agree with what most of the other posters on this thread have said, and particularly with @Lamb Chopped. As so often, in my view, she has spoken a lot of sense. She has said things that are valuable. I would suggest that she is well worth listening to.
S.R.E. with reference to the Roman church usually means Sancta Romana Ecclesia.
You will hear it ,if you are listening,of course, when a new pope is announced
Habemus papam ! Reverendissimum ac Eminentissimum Dominum, Dominum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem ........... name
do I need to translate ? No.
Thank you for the translation ,Martin 54
Can you now translate the first bit which I didn't mention before ?
Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum ! Habemus papam etc.
Sorry. Not so. Even without the present pope, there have been 35. That you think 2 out of that 35 are validated doesn't give these alleged prophecies any authority at all.
Besides, those two explanations are pretty far fetched. "Religio depopulata" would fit Pius VII's incumbency just as well if not better than Benedict XV's. The other 33 don't seem to have any bearing on the respective popes they are supposed to apply to, especially when one looks at some of the somewhat nondescript and half-forgotten popes of the C17 and C18. It's even argued that the 75th one, the next after Wion wrote them was either wishful thinking or an attempt to sway things in favour of a different potential candidate than the one that was eventually selected.
Two other queries.
1. In Wionology what is S.R.E. supposed to stand for? and
2. Again in Wionology is there argument about whether it's significant that in some texts 'persecutione' seems to be misspelt?
My apologies @undead_rat but I agree with what most of the other posters on this thread have said, and particularly with @Lamb Chopped. As so often, in my view, she has spoken a lot of sense. She has said things that are valuable. I would suggest that she is well worth listening to.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Enoch.
The Latin word "persecutione" is slightly abbreviated (psecutione) in Wion's text, and that is indicated by the slash through the bottom arm of the "p." And no need to apologize. No one else agrees with me either.
Please note that I used the word "falsified" rather than validated (at least in my last post) and that is all I am saying: that Wion's list of predictions has not been proven false. It has not been proven true either, of course. My supposition is that the fulfillment (or lack thereof) of the present prediction will provide that proof (or falsification) since it calls for a specific event.
And I have noticed that "Religio depopulata" would fit the reign of Pope Pius XII even better than that of Benedict XV considering the holocaust.
Fr. M.J. O'Brien* wrote that Wion's 75th prediction seemed to have a political purpose.
We should remember here the deadly threat of the Roman Inquisition. One could get away with making an innocuous "prophecy" about who would be elected pope, but not with giving a timeline for Judgement Day. So Wion chose to introduce his prophecies at the 1590 papal election and falsely attribute them to St. Malachy. He then buried the list in his 2000 page Lignum Vitae. The expensive production of this 2000 page book would have been born by Wion's own order, the Benedictines, and the Inquisition would have had to justify any censorship to them. As we know, they let it pass.
*An Historical and Critical Account of the So-Called Prophecy of St. Malachy, O'Brien, 1880
This is the first analysis in English that I am aware of. In it O'Brien proves that the list of papal mottoes was composed sometime after 1557. I find it a valuable source.
That's a nice variation on the childrens' address joke (a long shaggy dog story, here in condensed form) - 'on the way to church I met a little friend - can you guess who he is?......he likes climbing trees....he eats nuts....when he can remember where he put them... (still total silence, getting more desperate)....big bushy tail...often grey, or red'. Finally the little voice 'Please Mr, I know the answer's meant to be Jesus, but it sounds like a squirrel to me'.
I love the squirrel joke, so much that I begin to squeak "It's a squirrel!" whenever a particularly heavy-handed railroading is going on... the only problem is that too many people have already heard it!
Sure they can. If the membership of the Catholic Church had increased or even stayed the same from 1914 to 1921 that would have disproven Wion's prophecy. Likewise for Aquila rapax, but the Pope's blessing of Napoleon and the eagle standards of his regiments prevented that.
Sure they can. If the membership of the Catholic Church had increased or even stayed the same from 1914 to 1921 that would have disproven Wion's prophecy. Likewise for Aquila rapax, but the Pope's blessing of Napoleon and the eagle standards of his regiments prevented that.
Nonsense. Nobody interpreted those prophecies that way before those events.
Comments
Fr. Messingham's reprinting of 1624 is the source of the world's confusion about Wion's papal prophecies.
To which 'world' are you referring? Not, I fear, the real world...
Three common reasons are usually given in dismissing Wion's work.
1. It is proven that St. Malachy did not write that prophecies.
---Answer: Fr. Wion had to employ some kind of ruse to avoid being called up by the Roman Inquisition, so he attributed his predictions to St. Malachy and made up 74 predictions based on Panvinius' papal history of 1557. Of course predictions made after the fact are more accurate, but that finding alone does not invalidate the remaining 39.
2. Prediction number 112 for Pope Francis labels him as Petrus Romanus, and he bears no connection to that name.
---Answer: That allegation is based on the abridged version of the prophecies published in 1624. I have already discussed what prediction number 112 for Pope Francis actually looks like, and it does not contain the "Petrus Romanus" title.
3. My mention of predictions that have been fulfilled is "cherry picking," and most of the predictions are obscure and meaningless.
--Answer: Some dramatic predictions are extant in Wion's list such as "Aquila rapax" and "Religio depopulata." These presented excellent opportunities for the entire work to be falsified, but that did not happen. That does not mean that the forum has to accept them as being true either. It only means that they have not been conclusively disproven.
We are now at prediction number 112 for Francis, and that sentence indicates that some kind of persecution will befall the Catholic Church. If that should happen then, I feel that the legitimacy of Fr. Wion's Prophecy of the Popes will have been confirmed.
All i ask is that the forum keep an open mind.
@undead_rat, you’ve started three threads on similar sorts of things—these prophesies, the visions of Pope Pius X and the Shroud of Turin. You’ve been asked multiple times, by me and by others, why you think any of these things matter, and so far you’ve not answered that question. You just keep telling us what other people say or have written about them.
Why do you think these prophesies are worth paying attention to? Why do you think understanding them correctly matters?
I, too, would be interested to read some rational answers to your questions...
The Prophecy of the Popes together with the (alleged) visions of Pope Pius X, if confirmed, give us a timeline for the Last Days of the World. The Catholic Church will have only one more pope after Francis, and that pope will be St. Peter under whose reign "the city of the seven hills [the earth] will be destroyed, and the terrible Judge [YHWH] will judge his people. The End."
I don't know about you, but the timeline for the end of the world is something that i'd like to know.
The Holy Shroud is the Sign of Jonah and the seal of the Gospel's (as was vehemently denied by my own Episcopal priest.) In confirming the legitimacy of Rabbi Yeshu's teachings, it also confirms Jewish prophecy, and that prophecy indicates that the so-called "second coming" is the arrival of YHWH on earth through the mechanism of a global nuclear war.
I find that also important.
(b) Why is the knowledge of *global nuclear war* (the possibility of which has been around since 1945) important to you?
Or, in other words, given such knowledge, what would you do with it?
That’s really what I’m asking—why do you think knowing the timeline is important? What difference does having that timeline make? How does knowing it make us better disciples of Christ—the one who told us even he didn’t know the timeline? What difference should it make in how we live our lives?
undead rat: respectfully, the way you keep saying basically the same things over and over, without directly answering questions about why any of this matters in our daily lives, what we're supposed to do about it...comes across as obsessive.
I'm *not* saying you're crazy or anything--just that it's very easy for anyone to get focused on something in a maybe not-so-healthy way. Especially during chaotic, stressful times. I've done it. A whole lot of Shipmates have done it here, over the years, then IMVHO found a little more balance.
There was a TV drama called "Family". Two teen-aged girls, "Buddy" and another, were talking. Buddy had just found out that her friend was from a rich family but covered it up: she would get off the school bus in a not-rich neighborhood and walk home, so she'd fit in more with the other kids. She asked Buddy, "Do you think I'm weird?" Buddy said, "Everybody's weird: different things at different times".
I've really enjoyed your posts (on the Hell thread, IIRC) about your boat project and adventure!
Many Shipmates have some room for discussing and thinking about the religious matters you discuss, whether or not they believe them. But when you tell us it's important for us to know these things, yet consistently won't address *why* they matter in our lives and faiths and futures...it's really frustrating, and hard to engage with you.
We get that the things you're telling us are very important to you. Can you please shift your approach a little bit, and share why you think they matter for *us*?
Thanks for listening. And please continue your boating posts!!!
These.
Yeah, that was one thing that really shocked me about the Evangelical followers of a certain person who just retired. To decide that that person was some sort of Second Coming, an anointed prophet, or whatever...when Jesus was so very, very specific about not going down that rabbit hole...
Starts here, in the Purg "Shroud of Turin" thread.
The thread veered into a discussion about what kind of boat the disciples might have used on the Sea of Galilee. Then undead rat added their experience:
There are more posts and discussion about his adventure. A good read!
Yes indeed. And to miss it almost entirely when you-know-who retweeted something that called him the King of Israel and some other God-type title, can't recall what right now!
It must be ignorance. But ignorance sits very oddly on people who are forever going on about minuscule details of the text. I mean, read it already.
Problem is, end of the world stories generally involve going through a whole bunch of crap before school is actually out--and you might not like the results.
I think it comes down to the proud mother's boast: "everyone's out of step but my Johnnie".
This seemed like maybe the best place to ponder what I'm sure we can all agree is the deep prophetic significance of that.
Where are those reliable old books when you want them?
With my luck, I'll get stuck measuring the temple or eating a scroll while everyone else is fighting the dragon or ogling the Whore.
That joke appeared in a volume called "1001 Jokes For Kids" I had when I was about 7 and it was years before I worked out why it was supposed to be funny (well apart from the policeman being on his head, that seemed explanation enough when I was 7 but by the time I was 9 I was wondering if there was supposed to be more to it).
Most of the jokes were the standard "Knock Knock" and so on but there was also this one:
---
A bishop is visiting a confirmation class, decked out in his episcopal finery.
"I'll start with a simple question," he says, "who am I?"
Silence!
"Come on," he says, a little miffed, "you really ought to know this if you're going to be confirmed. Who am I?"
Silence!
"This is very basic," says the bishop, quite annoyed now, "hasn't the Sunday School taught you anything? Come on now - WHO AM I?"
And a little voice says diffidently: "Um... are you a miserable sinner?"
---
I had absolutely NO IDEA what was going on there so I asked my father, who thought for a couple of minutes then said: "That's quite good but there's no way any child could possibly understand it..." and indeed it took at least a decade for the penny to drop...
I love that! (And any child brought up on the specific Lutheran liturgy that starts out "I, a poor miserable sinner, confess unto thee") would totally get it.
Whose head? His own? Detached beneath his feet? Or inverted? There at at least five permutations there.
What am I Asply missing?
"What happens if you dial 666 on the telephone?"
Answer (not in an ominous voice):
"A policeman comes along standing on his head"
(Inverted, I would imagine)
We have had two good chances to have Wion's mottoes falsified.
The first was in the first decade of the 19th century with "Aquila rapax," and the second was in the second decade of the 20th century with "Religio depopulata."
Now, in the third decade of the 21st century, we have a third chance at falsification with the ominous prediction for Pope Francis. If that prediction comes true, then I will take it as a verification of Wion's last prediction.
(The skeptics will probably call it "cherry picking" again.)
This last prediction assigns a proper name to this last pope, Petrus Romanus. It is the only prediction to do so and, I believe, it must refer to a specific person.
The line:"Peter of Rome, who will feed his sheep . .." appears to be a reference to St. Peter.
An old Christian saying is that St. Peter will return as the last pope to lead us through the Last Days.
I have noticed that many people are expecting the anti-Christ to make his appearance.
If St. Peter manifests himself miraculously as did Jesus, they might take him to be that person. Perhaps he might not announce himself as "St. Peter."
Also given in Wion's last prediction is that the world will be destroyed and that "the terrible Judge will judge his people." That sounds like judgement day to me.
I think that knowing that the next pope is not the anti-Christ and might be St. Peter is important even though I am not Catholic.
Groan indeed. A true enigmatist would have inferred that.
Besides, those two explanations are pretty far fetched. "Religio depopulata" would fit Pius VII's incumbency just as well if not better than Benedict XV's. The other 33 don't seem to have any bearing on the respective popes they are supposed to apply to, especially when one looks at some of the somewhat nondescript and half-forgotten popes of the C17 and C18. It's even argued that the 75th one, the next after Wion wrote them was either wishful thinking or an attempt to sway things in favour of a different potential candidate than the one that was eventually selected.
Two other queries.
1. In Wionology what is S.R.E. supposed to stand for? and
2. Again in Wionology is there argument about whether it's significant that in some texts 'persecutione' seems to be misspelt?
My apologies @undead_rat but I agree with what most of the other posters on this thread have said, and particularly with @Lamb Chopped. As so often, in my view, she has spoken a lot of sense. She has said things that are valuable. I would suggest that she is well worth listening to.
You will hear it ,if you are listening,of course, when a new pope is announced
Habemus papam ! Reverendissimum ac Eminentissimum Dominum, Dominum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem ........... name
do I need to translate ? No.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
Can you now translate the first bit which I didn't mention before ?
Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum ! Habemus papam etc.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Enoch.
The Latin word "persecutione" is slightly abbreviated (psecutione) in Wion's text, and that is indicated by the slash through the bottom arm of the "p." And no need to apologize. No one else agrees with me either.
Please note that I used the word "falsified" rather than validated (at least in my last post) and that is all I am saying: that Wion's list of predictions has not been proven false. It has not been proven true either, of course. My supposition is that the fulfillment (or lack thereof) of the present prediction will provide that proof (or falsification) since it calls for a specific event.
And I have noticed that "Religio depopulata" would fit the reign of Pope Pius XII even better than that of Benedict XV considering the holocaust.
Fr. M.J. O'Brien* wrote that Wion's 75th prediction seemed to have a political purpose.
We should remember here the deadly threat of the Roman Inquisition. One could get away with making an innocuous "prophecy" about who would be elected pope, but not with giving a timeline for Judgement Day. So Wion chose to introduce his prophecies at the 1590 papal election and falsely attribute them to St. Malachy. He then buried the list in his 2000 page Lignum Vitae. The expensive production of this 2000 page book would have been born by Wion's own order, the Benedictines, and the Inquisition would have had to justify any censorship to them. As we know, they let it pass.
*An Historical and Critical Account of the So-Called Prophecy of St. Malachy, O'Brien, 1880
This is the first analysis in English that I am aware of. In it O'Brien proves that the list of papal mottoes was composed sometime after 1557. I find it a valuable source.
I love the squirrel joke, so much that I begin to squeak "It's a squirrel!" whenever a particularly heavy-handed railroading is going on... the only problem is that too many people have already heard it!
Sure they can. If the membership of the Catholic Church had increased or even stayed the same from 1914 to 1921 that would have disproven Wion's prophecy. Likewise for Aquila rapax, but the Pope's blessing of Napoleon and the eagle standards of his regiments prevented that.
He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church.
You can hold your breath for this one. It will be here soon.
(See the visions of Pius X in the "Hell" forum for details.)
Where is that from? With the name? Or at least the ordinal number?