The changing Palestinian/Israeli picture

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  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 16
    don't post when you are tired and forgotten the context Simon.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    @NOprophet_NØprofit: 'There is a fine line between anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel. I may place the line differently than you.'

    Jew hating is Jew hating. It's irrational. Always due to some cognitive bias or another. I got as far as that and watched as better responses came in. Picking up, being anti-Israel is on a much broader spectrum or at least 2D graph with Jew hating as one axis where the value can be zero or negative. And include Jews, very mainly for religious reasons, some for rational ones. A term like Anti-Israel tilts toward being against its existence. It's not a good term.

    None of us is that.

    Even Jew hating isn't, as antipathy toward Jews can be on the same xenophobic spectrum as not liking the people on the next street much. Being generally misanthropic, unsophisticated. Hassidim look more alien to me than old Jewish guys with yarmulkes and prayer shawls; I find them very sympathetic. Seeing Paul Simon so attired on Letterman was immensely moving. Cultural, aesthetic biases.

    You're not Jewish are you. At all. But you're German. Of Germans who suffered in WWII one way and another. Have you read Len Deighton's perfect Winter? Your story is what's driving your discourse here. All of ours do.

    One of my most formative experiences, as I've said here too often I'm sure, is of reading Miklós Nyiszli's Auschwitz at age 11-12 in '65. I've never been right since, and I wasn't right before. I became an Anglo-Israelite Zionist cultist progressively from '69 for nearly 30 years. But all of that is long deconstructed and what is reconstructed is a fierce desire for inclusive, liberal fairness to all taking all stories in to account. My stark realism remains, hence my responses above, particularly to @Simon Toad, who is a far nicer person. Israel, necessarily, isn't nice. But here it is. A bulldozer in history. One who's power, unlike Serbia's, cannot diminish. And on, and on, blah-di-blah. No one here wants to see a second holocaust, which is what would happen if Israel was somehow was overrun in some fantasy which can never happen. Not until it loses its nukes. May be in the next ice-age maximum. Israel, victim of history, now warts and all - Masada Shall Not Fall Again, is here to stay. So are their victims the Palestinians.

    What is your point?

  • Time zones and multiple responses mean picking discussion can be difficult. A couple of things.

    The 2 state solution had always seemed to more to be the reasonable one. Jews have been especially vulnerable historically. Palestinians are currently especially vulnerable. They appear to have had very poor leadership which alternates between almost agreeing to 2 states, and rejecting it. Other countries have used the conflict for strategic self-centred reasons.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Palestinians are currently especially vulnerable. They appear to have had very poor leadership ...

    Well, they'll have a chance to change that now with a General Election announced for July!

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Time zones and multiple responses mean picking discussion can be difficult. A couple of things.

    The 2 state solution had always seemed to more to be the reasonable one. Jews have been especially vulnerable historically. Palestinians are currently especially vulnerable. They appear to have had very poor leadership which alternates between almost agreeing to 2 states, and rejecting it. Other countries have used the conflict for strategic self-centred reasons.

    They've been especially vulnerable since being driven and kept out of their lands by Jews from 1948.
  • Time zones and multiple responses mean picking discussion can be difficult. A couple of things.

    The 2 state solution had always seemed to more to be the reasonable one. Jews have been especially vulnerable historically. Palestinians are currently especially vulnerable. They appear to have had very poor leadership which alternates between almost agreeing to 2 states, and rejecting it. Other countries have used the conflict for strategic self-centred reasons.

    Isn't this equally true of Israel?
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 16
    it is, IMHO. But I wouldn't class the leadership of either group as "poor". The challenge factor is insane.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited January 17
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    it is, IMHO. But I wouldn't class the leadership of either group as "poor". The challenge factor is insane.

    A while ago I saw an interesting comment from Alistair Campbell, regarding the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement. He said that one lesson he and Mr Blair had to learn was that if the IRA / Sinn Féin representatives seemed volatile or intransigent, you had to remember that there were people on their own side who wanted to kill them just for talking to the British government. I guess the same applies here ...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    And that's after only 827 years of English occupation in Ireland. 2775 anyone?
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    it is, IMHO. But I wouldn't class the leadership of either group as "poor". The challenge factor is insane.

    A while ago I saw an interesting comment from Alistair Campbell, regarding the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement. He said that one lesson he and Mr Blair had to learn was that if the IRA / Sinn Féin representatives seemed volatile or intransigent, you had to remember that there were people on their own side who wanted to kill them just for talking to the British government. I guess the same applies here ...

    Guess? Look at Rabin.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 17
    That's in part why I hope for some serious arm-twisting from the Saudis and secret negotiations between the leaders of the extremists on both sides. The only real chance is for something completely unexpected. I can only see terrible and bloody ways out of the impasse.

    The Israelis are really the side with options right now. They are the ones that could act unilaterally to annex the West Bank, although with Trump gone they have probably missed their chance. That is a pretty evil option though. To follow through and retain Jewish majority would require letting their mad bastards off the leash, the ones who just see Arabs, any Arab, as the enemy. Their zealot settlers are really fucking scary. It would be a terrible day for Palestine and Israel. God (yes a prayer) I hope the Saudis are doing something about that.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited January 17
    .
  • You know the situation is well and truly fucked when the best hope for justice and peace is the fucking House of Saud.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    That's in part why I hope for some serious arm-twisting from the Saudis and secret negotiations between the leaders of the extremists on both sides. The only real chance is for something completely unexpected. I can only see terrible and bloody ways out of the impasse.

    The Israelis are really the side with options right now. They are the ones that could act unilaterally to annex the West Bank, although with Trump gone they have probably missed their chance. That is a pretty evil option though. To follow through and retain Jewish majority would require letting their mad bastards off the leash, the ones who just see Arabs, any Arab, as the enemy. Their zealot settlers are really fucking scary. It would be a terrible day for Palestine and Israel. God (yes a prayer) I hope the Saudis are doing something about that.

    What extremists? Apart from the mad-dog settlers already on a long leash over the border. Held by the Israeli government. Recallable as they were in Gaza. Hmmm. What do you call those who use extremists they control as part of their foreign policy? And if Britain had been overrun by the Nazis, what would have been extreme in reacting against that? And, er, in Jesus' terms your enemy is anyone you're alienated from. And and what can the authoritarian theocrats in Riyadh do about any of this? I mean they can manage to murder a dissident with impunity, making Turkey look good, but couldn't fight their way in to a paper bag on their doorstep even with British firepower.
  • Money. I don't know if this is true, or me just making something up and thinking it is true, but I see the House of Saud as having influence over those who fund Palestinian causes. I don't think they could turn off the tap, but they could encourage the tap to be tightened further.

    As to what extremists on the Palestinian side, I take your point. It's not very extreme to take up arms in their situation. Its understandable. Its my reflex to use phrases like "on both sides". Mind you, I'm not running into a bomb shelter every time there's a rocket chucked over from Gaza, I'm sitting in a loungeroom watching the cricket.

    The settlers in Gaza weren't recallable. They had to be dragged out by the army and watch their houses bulldozed so they didn't move back in the next week.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Although Arab money has halved, the EU and Iran pumps it in, the PLO, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades of Fatah, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades of Hamas and others take their cut and Israel trashes everything built with the rest. The poor will always find ways to resist including by martyring themselves; supporting terrorists to provoke a backlash on the human shield of women, children, sick and elderly to horrify the Ummah which will find a way to channel funds.

    It's a manageable situation all round.

    And I'd call that being recalled.
  • My understanding is that Iranian money is out of the picture, at least for Hamas, Fatah and their associates. I understand that Hamas is mostly funded by Qatar via Israel.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Iran increased support to $30m a month up to June 2nd last year and then cut that to £15m the next day for Hamas backing the Syrian Sunni insurrection. According to Abbas, Israel finances Hamas to harass Fatah. My enemy's enemy and all that.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Iran increased support to $30m a month up to June 2nd last year and then cut that to £15m the next day for Hamas backing the Syrian Sunni insurrection. According to Abbas, Israel finances Hamas to harass Fatah. My enemy's enemy and all that.

    My information comes from the Wikipedia article on Hamas, the section on funding.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye, mine complements it.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Here is an audio report on how close the Israelis and the Palestinians actually came to an agreement. It is a 42-minute interview. I have listened only to parts of it so cannot give a very good summation.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    edited January 26
    In the meantime...
    More than 1 million people in Israel have received both doses of the vaccine against COVID-19 while some 2.7 million have received the first dose, Health Minister Yuli Edelstein said Monday.
    (source: HaAretz newspaper)
  • Galilit wrote: »
    In the meantime...
    More than 1 million people in Israel have received both doses of the vaccine against COVID-19 while some 2.7 million have received the first dose, Health Minister Yuli Edelstein said Monday.
    (source: HaAretz newspaper)

    I wonder how many Palestinians have.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Israel en't daft. They're very keen on vaxing Palestinian day workers. That's the limit of their enlightened self interest.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »

    I wonder how many Palestinians have.

    Whataboutery!
    Ask their Minister of Health!

    How many countries (apart from Aotearoa~New Zealand) are taking any responsibilty for testing, treating or vaccinating The Neighbours?
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Israel en't daft. They're very keen on vaxing Palestinian day workers. That's the limit of their enlightened self interest.

    "Enlightened self-interest" is much more likely to be directed to preferred political figures or key collaborators and informants; not a farm-worker who grows green capsicums or a builder who plasters walls
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Galilit wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Israel en't daft. They're very keen on vaxing Palestinian day workers. That's the limit of their enlightened self interest.

    "Enlightened self-interest" is much more likely to be directed to preferred political figures or key collaborators and informants; not a farm-worker who grows green capsicums or a builder who plasters walls

    't'was on the BBC.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Galilit wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »

    I wonder how many Palestinians have.

    Whataboutery!
    Ask their Minister of Health!

    How many countries (apart from Aotearoa~New Zealand) are taking any responsibilty for testing, treating or vaccinating The Neighbours?
    I would hope they’re taking responsibility for all the people living in the territories they occupy.
  • "The Neighbours"? If Israel withdrew from the Palestinian territories and stopped dictating their actions, this word might apply. As it is, it is a cruel farce.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    edited January 27
    As NP-NP said above: Palestinians are currently especially vulnerable. They appear to have had very poor leadership

    The farce has more than one facet
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    "The Neighbours"? If Israel withdrew from the Palestinian territories and stopped dictating their actions, this word might apply. As it is, it is a cruel farce.

    What would happen if they did? Unilaterally. As they should, with apology and reparations, regardless of a naturally graceless Palestinian response. By stopping dictating Palestinian actions that would mean stopping interdicting military supplies as well as solar panels. Withdrawal of illegal settlements is easy by orders of magnitude. Would that stop Palestinian guerrilla and rocket attacks? On Eretz Palestine? They would have what they want for a start and they want it all.
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