'Here Iam, Lord. Is it I, Lord?'

A line from the refrain for one of my least favourite hymns (or songs, if you insist). There are quite a few contenders for that title. It ends with the words 'I am here, Lord, if you need me. I will hold your people in my heart.' Can anyone explain to this poor sinner exactly what those words are supposed to mean? (If, indeed, they have any meaning.)
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Comments

  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I always thought it was a reference to the calling of Samuel; although 'hold your people in my heart' isn't in that passage, it's a summary of the fact that he was called to be their priest. How that relates to an ordinary lay human being in the modern world is another question ...
  • The line is “I will go, Lord if you need me.” May not make a difference to @Eirenist’s confusion.
    While not a fan of the song, it has always made sense to me. “I will go and love your (all) people, in actions such as the rest of the song talks about.”
  • Our Place warbles it on Sea Sunday (July), on account of the first line:

    I, the Lord of sea and sky...

    But yes, I'm not sure what the rest of it means, either!

    (Good tune, though).

  • Hello! You've reached the voicemail of [your name], [your job title]. I'm currently either away from my desk or on the other line. Please leave your name, telephone number, and a short message after the beep, and I'll be sure to get back to you as soon as I'm available. In the meantime let me assure you that
    Eirenist wrote: »
    'I am here, Lord, if you need me. I will hold your people in my heart.'



  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @Eirenist I too don't like that hymn. I think it's emotionally and spiritually pretentious.

    I think the first sentence you quoted is intended to resonate with either the call of Samuel or Is 6:8. In both those originals, though, it was God who took the initiative not the person singing. Also neither has the condition the hymn has, i.e. 'I'll go but only if you need me'. I've no idea what the second sentence means. I assume the writer did, bit do slightly wonder. It sounds like religious rhetoric.

    The composer is still alive and has a website. You could, perhaps, try asking him.


  • ....Thank you for continuing to hold, Your Call is important to us and we will be with You shortly.
  • Silliness aside, it reminds me of “Who is on the Lord’s side” which is an old favourite.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    In both those originals, though, it was God who took the initiative not the person singing. Also neither has the condition the hymn has, i.e. 'I'll go but only if you need me'. I've no idea what the second sentence means.
    I think both of these are related. Without the second sentence, it takes control from God in some form.
    It's also "If you LEAD me"

    In general you have the verses which are written as if from God's perspective (calling on assorted references) but ending with the bit from Isaiah. And the chorus is as if from your perspective (assuming your response isn't sod that I'm going to Spain).

    Wiki says it was written for (Catholic Deacon's) Ordination.
  • The alternative version

    “No, not me Lord,
    Please don’t ask me.
    I am hiding underneath the bed.
    Go away Lord,
    I don’t want to.
    Please find someone else instead”
  • :lol:

    Rather more honest, one feels...

    Mind you, if the original was written for the Ordination of Deacons, it makes more sense.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    CJCfarwest wrote: »
    The alternative version

    “No, not me Lord,
    Please don’t ask me.
    I am hiding underneath the bed.
    Go away Lord,
    I don’t want to.
    Please find someone else instead”

    Based on Jonah, I presume.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Thank you for the corrections, I was quoting from memory. It is indeed a good tune but an irritating earworm. For the ordination of eDeacons, Roman Catholic or otherwise, it makes more sense, but lay members of a congregation should be warned before they sing it, or they may find they are taking on more than they expected.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited January 30
    Enoch wrote: »
    In both those originals, though, it was God who took the initiative not the person singing.
    Well, that’s the the case in this hymn/song, too. The verses are God taking the initiative and speaking, ending with “whom shall I send?,” and the refrain is the singer responding. I realize that putting words in the mouth of God is part of what some people dislike about the hymn, but that is the structure.

    Full disclosure: I wrote hymns for the baptisms of both of our children, and both hymns similarly put words in the mouth of God—one uses Isaiah’s “I have called you by name, you are mine,” and one uses “this is my beloved” from the baptism of Jesus. So clearly I’m not too bothered by a hymn putting having God speak if what God says is drawn from Scripture.

    Cathscats wrote: »
    The line is “I will go, Lord if you need me.”
    Enoch wrote: »
    Also neither has the condition the hymn has, i.e. 'I'll go but only if you need me'.
    Actually, it’s “I will go, Lord, if you lead me”—as @jay_emm, with whom I cross-posted, noted. Seems to me an entirely appropriate condition, if it can be called that.


    I’ll admit I don’t have the intense dislike of “Here I Am, Lord” that so many seem to. It’s not my favorite by any means, but I don’t mind it. (Though perhaps for perspective I should acknowledge that I’ve frequently noted my dislike of “Amazing Grace” on the Ship, so . . . .). In my experience, it is most likely to be sung at confirmations or ordinations.

  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am opposed to all hymns which oblige the singer to promise something s/he may not be able to do.
    O Jesus I have promised...
    Take my life and let it be...
    to quote more traditional ones,
  • MrsBeakyMrsBeaky Shipmate
    Like so many things for me it's often the associations of a particular hymn which either draw or repel me, then it's whether or not I can sing the words with any sense of integrity.

    This particular one is a mixed bag for me: I like the tune, I find the structure of the words a bit clunky but I have a deep and abiding memory of it being sung at one of our link parishes when we visited them prior to leaving for Kenya as mission partners. Their priest explained that all of us were doing our bit as regards to responding to the call of God, us in going and them in praying and supporting.
    I know, I know- all very sentimental but actually it was quite moving and authentic too at the time!
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    I think the sentiment is a conflation of the calling of Samuel and the call of Isaiah, in which the "calling in the night" is the lesser and misleading clue.

    Isaiah: Ch 6 v 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    My quibble with the hymn is that Isaiah does not make a qualified response, "if". Biblically, the answer to the diffidence of the hymn writer is: "It jolly well is you!" and that it would better read:

    "It is I, Lord........
    I will go, Lord, where you lead me."

    He has, after all, had a vision of God, and his lips (gift of speech) anointed with a live coal from the altar.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    CJCfarwest wrote: »
    The alternative version

    “No, not me Lord,
    Please don’t ask me.
    I am hiding underneath the bed.
    Go away Lord,
    I don’t want to.
    Please find someone else instead”

    The author is our fellow shippie, Gill H. Her original version was
    Someone else, Lord,
    Please not me Lord,
    I am hiding underneath my bed
    I can't go Lord
    I'm too scared Lord
    Won't you please send someone else instead.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    It doesn't bother me too much.
    Its just another of those "get up off your arses and DO something" hymns that are generally ignored by those whose Christianity is confined to a comfortable hour on a Sunday.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited January 30
    I used to like "Who is on the Lord's side?" until I found out where it came from, with the sons of Levi and the massacre of three thousand of their kin. My mother challenged the vicar on reading this passage in church, which he excused by saying it is in the lectionary.

    We didn't use that in the Congregationalists so I don't know where it comes from, with what authority.
  • /slight tangent/

    When I tackled Father F**kwit about the bloodthirsty passages in the OT, and asked him why we read them in the course of (in this case) Morning Prayer, he said *God was getting the world ready for Jesus...*
    :open_mouth:
  • Penny S wrote: »
    I used to like "Who is on the Lord's side?" until I found out where it came from, with the sons of Levi and the massacre of three thousand of their kin. My mother challenged the vicar on reading this passage in church, which he excused by saying it is in the lectionary.

    We didn't use that in the Congregationalists so I don't know where it comes from, with what authority.

    If you don't read such passages it is like pretending that they aren't there. Surely congregations should be aware of them and preachers should address them, even if they say "this is terrible and ought to be excised"? (Although that is a problematic approach since if you excised all unpleasant passages there might not be all that much Scripture left).
  • Penny S wrote: »
    I used to like "Who is on the Lord's side?" until I found out where it came from, with the sons of Levi and the massacre of three thousand of their kin. My mother challenged the vicar on reading this passage in church, which he excused by saying it is in the lectionary.

    We didn't use that in the Congregationalists so I don't know where it comes from, with what authority.

    If you don't read such passages it is like pretending that they aren't there. Surely congregations should be aware of them and preachers should address them, even if they say "this is terrible and ought to be excised"? (Although that is a problematic approach since if you excised all unpleasant passages there might not be all that much Scripture left).

    O yes, I agree. It was Father F's silly answer that made me cross, not the fact that the compilers of the lectionary had seen fit to include such bits!

    I did conclude the passage by saying *Here ends the first reading*, rather than the usual *This is the Word of the Lord*...
  • I did conclude the passage by saying *Here ends the first reading*, rather than the usual *This is the Word of the Lord*...
    I have known ministers in similar situations to alter the usual “The Word of the Lord” to something like “The disturbing Word of the Lord,” “The unsettling Word of the Lord” or even “The Word of the Lord?”

  • Shouldn't it be "Here I am, Lord. Is it me, Lord?"

    Noting that most people don't hear God calling them any time, not just at night. We have to make our own decisions.
  • Isn't *Is it I, Lord* better grammar?

    IYSWIM.

    If there's any calling in the night to be done, it's usually me swearing at God for making me get up yet again to go to the loo...
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    It doesn't bother me too much.
    Its just another of those "get up off your arses and DO something" hymns that are generally ignored by those whose Christianity is confined to a comfortable hour on a Sunday.

    That's how I see it. I try to hold God's people 'in my heart' even when I wish the one or two of the more problematic of them would fuck off. I think it's part of my calling as a Christian (and secondarily as a Christian leader) to keep bringing God's children in prayer before him. Because I'm an idiot I keep thinking it would be a great idea if most Christians took seriously the idea of praying in a heartfelt way about their fellow human beings/Christians. Is that a bad thing?
  • BF, why did you correct NPNP on his use of grammar and then say yourself two lines down 'it's me....... ?

    It reminds me of the Sco..ish teacher getting a boy to speak 'correctly.

    'Don't say bu..er. It's bu tt er.' she said.

    Boy 'bu tt er

    Teacher , that's be..er
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 30
    Forthview wrote: »
    BF, why did you correct NPNP on his use of grammar and then say yourself two lines down 'it's me....... ?

    It reminds me of the Sco..ish teacher getting a boy to speak 'correctly.

    'Don't say bu..er. It's bu tt er.' she said.

    Boy 'bu tt er

    Teacher , that's be..er

    Curses! I was hoping no-one would spot that...
    :grimace:

    I was just idly wondering, really, whether *It is I* might perhaps be better grammar - I don't say that it is...

    BTW, should the whole line read *Here am I, Lord. Is it I, Lord?*

    That seems to scan be..er, but YMMV.
    :naughty:
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    NOprophet_NOprofit: Shouldn't it be "Here I am, Lord. Is it me, Lord?"

    Authorised: "Then said I, Here am I; send me."

    NIV: “And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 30
    Kwesi wrote: »
    NOprophet_NOprofit: Shouldn't it be "Here I am, Lord. Is it me, Lord?"

    Authorised: "Then said I, Here am I; send me."

    NIV: “And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Ah-ha!

    I, and the Bible, are both correct!
    :innocent:
  • It's a (modern-ish) hymn that many congregations still love, as it gives them a bit of a nice warm feeling inside. Used sparingly, in the circumstances, it can be quite powerful. I think that sometimes we get too hung up on a literal reading of the lyrics when actually it's about the mood being evoked.

    As such, the basic theme is fairly straightforward - God's got a lot of things to be done in this world to care for the poor and suffering, so are you willing to be "God's hands"?

    For me, the hymn is/can be a healthy reminder that it's important to back up our grand statements of faith with actual deeds. In other words, 1 John 3:18:
    "Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action."
  • MMMMMM Shipmate
    I is correct; the verb ‘to be’ takes a complement.

    That’s what I was always taught. A lot of people often say ‘me’, though.

    No doubt someone will be along soon to tell me in no uncertain terms that language changes and there is no such thing as correct.

    MMM
  • It's a (modern-ish) hymn that many congregations still love, as it gives them a bit of a nice warm feeling inside. Used sparingly, in the circumstances, it can be quite powerful. I think that sometimes we get too hung up on a literal reading of the lyrics when actually it's about the mood being evoked.

    As such, the basic theme is fairly straightforward - God's got a lot of things to be done in this world to care for the poor and suffering, so are you willing to be "God's hands"?

    For me, the hymn is/can be a healthy reminder that it's important to back up our grand statements of faith with actual deeds. In other words, 1 John 3:18:
    "Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action."

    Yes, fair comment, especially your second paragraph.

    When we sing it on Sea Sunday, we usually have a number of Scouts/Cubs/Beavers in the congregation, and AFAIK it's a song which at least some of them will have sung in school.
  • I wouldn't really worry too much about saying 'it's me' Almost everyone does
    'It is I' is correct but as one says in German it is 'peinlich genau'( transl. embarrassingly accurate.)
    Incidentally German doesn't say 'it is I' ,one says 'I am it' (ich bin es)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    "If," the word, has several meanings, one of which is "on the assumption that" ergo:

    I will follow Lord, on the assumption you will lead me.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 30
    Yes, I see - rather than *on the condition that you lead me.*
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited January 30
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "If," the word, has several meanings, one of which is "on the assumption that" ergo:

    I will follow Lord, on the assumption you will lead me.
    Yes, and I think in this regard it’s important to note that “I will go Lord, if you lead me” is a response to the question, “whom shall I send?,” not “who will follow?”.

    It strikes me a bit like Frodo at the Council of Elrond—“I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way.” You can send me, but I’m going to need you to lead me.

  • This hymn is one of my favorites. They played it heaps at St Francis de Sales East Ringwood in the 1970's, and I loved to sing it as a child, listening to the deep, heavily accented Dutch voice of Mr Janssen, a stalwart of the choir.
  • My only problem is that about 10 years ago, in my experience, it seemed like it had to play for every ordination and installation. It is one of those hymns that if it is played occasionally, it isn't bad, but if it's played at every ordination, it becomes annoying.

    Other than Veni Spiritus Sancti of course, which should be sung at every ordination:)
  • cgichardcgichard Shipmate
    I don't know any such hymn, but I immediately thought of Matthew 26: 25, where it is Judas who asks "Master, is it I?"
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Ouch!
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    edited January 31
    You can look up the hymn/song. But here is a bit of a summary of it.

    Firstly it is important to note that there are 2 'voices', a "God' voice for the verses (to be honest this is where I would have issues) and a 'Response' chorus/refrain.

    The verses kind of resemble the various calling narratives in the bible, and the responses kind of echo the responses given to that call. But it is very generalised (which makes sense, "I have heard a sick child in 42 New Street, He's going to get care and attention, Katy get your bag" would have limited reuse).

    Each verse opens with a identification "I the Lord of X & Y " referencing Creation, ??? (walking on the water) and Pentecost.
    While the middle of the verses varies (it's kind of midway between the judges and prophets), the end hearkens back particularly to Isaiah, ending with "Who shall I send?".

    At this point the voice changes and you get the response discussed above [which is to that question, and not "Someones a traitor."], which again starts with Isaiah's, but reflects other responses, and the fact that as a group song (and not a vision) sometimes for the current obvious situations it is not in fact the person referred to by the reflexive pronoun.
  • If any one song had to be chosen to show everything that's wrong with modern worship music this would be my choice.

    Lumpen, dull tune and moronic words.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    This hymn is one of my favorites. They played it heaps at St Francis de Sales East Ringwood in the 1970's, and I loved to sing it as a child, listening to the deep, heavily accented Dutch voice of Mr Janssen, a stalwart of the choir.
    If any one song had to be chosen to show everything that's wrong with modern worship music this would be my choice.

    Lumpen, dull tune and moronic words.
    This hymn is, in my estimation, a prime illustration of how tastes differ, and how our connections to certain hymns are influenced not just by our musical and poetic tastes, but also, and perhaps much more strongly, by association. One person’s trash in another’s treasure.

  • If any one song had to be chosen to show everything that's wrong with modern worship music this would be my choice.

    Lumpen, dull tune and moronic words.

    You prefer The Shiny Song*, then?
    :naughty:

    I'll get me coat...

    *Kendrick's Shine, Jesus, Shine...

  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    Bishops Finger: *Kendrick's Shine, Jesus, Shine...

    We can only hope that the "flow river flow" doesn't extinguish the "blaze spirit blaze". But then again, perhaps not.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    It's not a particular favourite of mine (the 'It is I' always makes me think of 'Allo 'Allo!) though I don't hate it, but I thought the bit about holding people in your heart was about prayer, and about taking some responsibility to be aware of the people around you and their problems. As in, not distancing yourself, or being in a cosy little self-righteous world of your own, but seeing that people are all linked and God cares about everyone, so we can't just dismiss people or have a 'them and us' attitude. Kind of like how monastics hold the world in their hearts by constantly praying.
  • Bill_NobleBill_Noble Shipmate
    edited January 31
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I am opposed to all hymns which oblige the singer to promise something s/he may not be able to do.
    O Jesus I have promised...
    Take my life and let it be...
    to quote more traditional ones,

    Er....well I guess now is a bad time to mention that the Church is the Bride of Christ in Revelation?

    Surprise!

    But since none of us knows what life will throw at us next, these are all, at best, forward-looking statements.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-looking_statement

  • MrsBeakyMrsBeaky Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    This hymn is one of my favorites. They played it heaps at St Francis de Sales East Ringwood in the 1970's, and I loved to sing it as a child, listening to the deep, heavily accented Dutch voice of Mr Janssen, a stalwart of the choir.
    If any one song had to be chosen to show everything that's wrong with modern worship music this would be my choice.

    Lumpen, dull tune and moronic words.
    This hymn is, in my estimation, a prime illustration of how tastes differ, and how our connections to certain hymns are influenced not just by our musical and poetic tastes, but also, and perhaps much more strongly, by association. One person’s trash in another’s treasure.

    Absolutely, as I said above despite all its shortcomings it has a powerful resonance for me
  • If any one song had to be chosen to show everything that's wrong with modern worship music this would be my choice.

    Lumpen, dull tune and moronic words.

    You prefer The Shiny Song*, then?
    :naughty:

    I'll get me coat...

    *Kendrick's Shine, Jesus, Shine...


    Another of my top 5 Worship Songs That Should Be Banned 😈
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