I haven't seen the films of Dan Brown's books, but I have read them all. I still think they're fun, and I don't see anything blasphemous in (for example) the thought that Jesus and Mary Magdalene might have been a *ahem* couple...
Well, he was human, and AIUI it was unusual for a Rabbi to be a single chap...by the age of 30, he could have been married for some years, with a family.
I want to know why the fuck it's always Mary Magdalene.
Does nobody ever conspirate about some girl-next-door named Salome, or Deborah, or something?
Or go for the big time, and make it someone like Bernice, or Pontius Pilate's daughter, or whatever. But this MM stuff is just way past getting old.
I suppose Salome-next-door, or Deborah-next-door, even if they were Mrs Rabbi Yeshu at some point, might have died (possibly in childbirth?) before the said Rabbi met MM.
Life was brutish and short in those days, and, I suspect, particularly so for women.
What do Pius VII and Napoleon Bonaparte to do with the 'End Times' ?
The same that both you, Bishop's finger, and I do.
We are all heading towards the 'End Times'
What do Pius VII and Napoleon Bonaparte to do with the 'End Times' ?
The same that both you, Bishop's finger, and I do.
We are all heading towards the 'End Times'
Pius VII and His Imperial Majesty are both DEAD, but enjoying the Beatific Vision. We have that yet to come. The End Times won't affect them, and may not affect us either, if we die before they occur...
Why do we need to wait to see whether prediction 112 turns out to be true to take prediction 113 seriously? What about predictions 1–111? If they can’t establish the validity and reliability of the prophecy, then why should anyone waste their time with this?
Some analysts refer to the mottoes "Religio depopulata" and "Aquila rapax," but find themselves accused of "cherry picking," etc.
I call attention to prediction 112 for Francis before the fact in order to avoid that criticism, but, if it comes true, the skeptics will just say it was luck or that it was too obvious.
I’m afraid, @undead_rat, that you’re still side-stepping the question. Why do you think the prophecy as a whole is reliable to start with? Regardless of what happens with number 112, why do you think we should pay the prophecy as a whole any more attention than we’d pay the fortune in a fortune cookie?
It was, of course, @undead_rat to whom the request was directed. I await (with bated breath) an answer...
Really? Oh okay.
Although I don’t think the RCC is any more guilty of obsessing over sexual sin more than other denominations. It’s the easiest target; a quick way to convict people. The low hanging fruit, while the harder to discern branches of power, control and significance are rarely mentioned, let alone challenged.
Tuis,enim,fidelibus ,Domine,vita mutatur,non tollitur which means in English
To your faithful people,Lord, life is changed,it is not taken away.
BF Pius VII and Napoleon Bonaparte may well be DEAD and they may be enjoying the Beatific Vision.
One day we too, that's you and I BF, we too will be called to make that change and hopefully enjoy the Beatific Vision. these moments will be our own personal 'End Times'
From the moment of our birth we head towards that moment.
As someone said Life ,itself , is a sexually trasmitted, chronic and ultimately fatal disease.
Tuis,enim,fidelibus ,Domine,vita mutatur,non tollitur which means in English
To your faithful people,Lord, life is changed,it is not taken away.
BF Pius VII and Napoleon Bonaparte may well be DEAD and they may be enjoying the Beatific Vision.
One day we too, that's you and I BF, we too will be called to make that change and hopefully enjoy the Beatific Vision. these moments will be our own personal 'End Times'
From the moment of our birth we head towards that moment.
As someone said Life ,itself , is a sexually trasmitted, chronic and ultimately fatal disease.
I did speculate on whether undead_rat is channelling Dan Brown, Jack Chick, Nostradamus, or a combination of various members of that unholy trinity...
Now *that* would be quite the gathering!
FWIW, I quite enjoy Dan Brown's books. You never know - he might be right, at least about some things...
He has some that aren't religious, like "Deception Point": political suspense; science is a thread in the story; very fast-paced and happens over a couple of days, IIRC. Nothing about Jesus, religion, the Catholic church, or the pope's fave flavor of coffee.
LOL. Nope, not contagious. Just that the counter arguments, as stated, struck me as inaccurate at best. Like (paraphrase) "we don't have to worry about nuclear war anymore, it's just silly, and soooo 1950s". As I posted upthread, there's periodic news about this or that nation's nukes and what they might do with them, and we've got a current Purg thread about a brand-new nuclear disarmament agreement.
ISTM that countering an argument by being dismissive and inaccurate doesn't really help anyone.
Entertaining half-cocked crackpot Internet theories because "we don't know" [shrug] is essentially how QAnon developed. I doubt undead_rat has any kind of following, but at this point I think it's best to put these kinds of inanities down. A theory concerEning the major actions of states with little evidence to support it other than a spurious writing from the 17th century and the usual political tensions of the Middle East counts as half-cocked and crackpot.
Respectfully: Except dismissing even the idea of nuclear war (not as a prophecy, but a daily concern in the real world) comes across as crackpot, too. And *that* overshadows anything else said against the prophecies--which is unfortunate, if you want to dissuade people from taking the prophecies seriously.
As to QAnon: I think (parts of) it might have been invented/developed more purposefully.
I have never known anyone to list nuclear war as a daily concern in the real world. I've heard climate change, cancer, sudden illness and death, car crashes, and murderers: not once have I heard someone list nuclear war as a daily concern in the real world. Nor, for that matter, have I ever once been concerned about it. All of the events I just listed have happened, are happening, and will happen. Nuclear war has never happened. There was a nuclear attack, once. Perhaps it's a generational thing, but if so then dismissing it wouldn't be crackpot, it'd be generational.
I also think using 'crackpot' to include disregarding of nuclear war as a daily concern is a stretch of its ordinary usage.
aquila rapax (rapacious eagle ) - in the order of the 'prophecy of the popes' refers to Pius VII. If one is to make sense of the title it is seen as referring to Napoleon Bonaparte. Pius VII's pontificate was a long one from 1800 to 1823 and much of his pontifical life was taken up in dealing,from a Church point of view, with the aftermath of the French Revolution - first of all in reaching an agreement with Napoleon to re-establish Christianity as 'the religion of the majority of French people' and re-establish Sunday as a day of rest. Later on Pius held prisoner in Fontainebleau by Napoleon who installed his little son as King of Rome. If,as I think, undead rat said that Pius was eternally grateful to Napoleon I think it would be in the same way that the hapless Aung San Siu Kyi supported the work of the Burmese generals.
That little son died young and his tomb is in Les Invalides. His mother went off to Parma with her lover.
"Religio depopulata" is "religion destroyed." Oddly enough, religion appears to still be around.
"Aquila Rapax" is "rapacious [or seizing] eagle" supposedly referring to Napoleon because his flags were emblazoned with such during the reign of Pius VII. How that is a prophecy related to the Papacy I have no idea. Furthermore, even if these two were absolutely spot-on, two vague statements out of a collection of 112 doesn't prove anything.
Catholic Answers pundit Jimmy Akin attempts to discredit the Prophecy of the Popes by mistranslating "depopulata" as destroyed. But "destroyed" is "diruetur" in Latin, and that word appears in prediction number 113.
Pius VII traveled all the way to Paris in order to preside at Napoleon's coronation, and the Pope blessed him at that event. Three days later Napoleon presented bronze eagle standards to his regiments. Pius VII always referred to Napoleon as "my dear son."
Both of these predictions were unusual. The prophecy would have been falsified by their failure, but that did not happen.
Lewis and Short list “lay waste, dissipate, destroy” as meanings of depopulata, from depopulor. Go with religion laid waste, or religion dissipated if you want, the translations still don’t describe any state of affairs warranting calling that bit of Latin an accurate prediction.
Diruetur is destroyed, true, there are multiple ways of saying the same thing in any language.
I’m afraid, @undead_rat, that you’re still side-stepping the question. Why do you think the prophecy as a whole is reliable to start with? Regardless of what happens with number 112, why do you think we should pay the prophecy as a whole any more attention than we’d pay the fortune in a fortune cookie?
Wion's Prophecy of the Popes is actually a judgement day prediction. It states that, under the 39th Pope from 1590, "the terrible Judge will judge his people. Finis." The Roman Inquisition was founded in 1542 for the very purpose of prosecuting such heretical postulations, but, somehow, Wion's predictions avoided its attention. Recall that both Galileo and Nostradamus were summoned to appear before that court in the same time period. The Catholic Church has never condemned these predictions. Pope Pius XII even gave them a tacit endorsement. The very risky predictions did not falsify the prophecy though they easily could have.
Now we are on the brink of the last and most risky prediction. If Pope Francis leaves the papacy before its fulfillment, then Wion's final prediction, number 113, is falsified.
If you don't find knowing that Judgement Day will occur under the next Pope after Francis has any value, then I really don't know what else to say.
My understanding is that the Pope blessed Napoleon:
"May God confirm you on this throne and may Christ give you to rule with Him in His eternal kingdom."
If you don't find knowing that Judgement Day will occur under the next Pope after Francis has any value, then I really don't know what else to say.
Thought-experiment:
Suppose that five years ago, your studies revealed advanced warning of the present pandemic. Other than knowing that it was definitely coming and that you, along with other ordinary people will be powerless to stop it, what would you DO with that knowledge?
Okay, you share that knowledge with as many people as possible so that now we all know what’s coming.
The point is that apart from that, you have nothing to offer. Nothing. No cure, no alternative. “Look! See, it is written! Nothing can stop it!”
You may claim that the role of the prophet is not to provide comfort, but the cold, clinical truth, well unfortunately God has moved on. The whole Old Testament lone visionary crying-in-the-wilderness thing went out with John the Baptist. The role model is Jesus living and eating and sharing life with others. Prophets are integrated into the life of a congregation now and their pronouncements are subject to testing by others. And the first test is timing.
Nothing you have written offers encouragement or hope or promise or life or salvation in this hour of need. All you have to offer is cross-referencing and pain and death.
What little I have to offer is on a different thread, but none of the participants here seem to like it very much.
And I do not agree with your dismissal of the OT prophets. See Isaiah 3:17-24 for a description of conditions for Jewish women in WW II slave labor camps.
Rabbi Yeshu said: "I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already !"
Some of the earth's inhabitants have already experienced the horror of that fire.
The rest will in just a few more years.
Isaiah 66:15-16 For see how YHWH comes in fire,
His chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with the brilliant fire.
For by fire will YHWH execute judgement,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.
"He burned the house down to announce his arrival."
Patty Griffin
I am sorry of the realities of the 21st century do not fit in with your benign theology.
<snip>If you don't find knowing that Judgement Day will occur under the next Pope after Francis has any value, then I really don't know what else to say.
Why should it make any difference to what I do or how I live? I might meet my end under a bus or in a hospital ward or in any other way before then. If somehow I knew what our Lord assured us no-one knows should I be a more diligent disciple because I ‘know’ the end is coming then, or less diligent because I ‘know’ that while this pope lives I’m OK? And why should I believe this obscure text tells me truly something which Jesus has said we don’t know?
As I said, I don't know what else to say. I think that knowing that Judgement Day is right around the corner has value. If you don't find that knowledge useful, then that is certainly your right.
As I said, I don't know what else to say. I think that knowing that Judgement Day is right around the corner has value. If you don't find that knowledge useful, then that is certainly your right.
You know no such thing. You think it based on credulity and interpretation based on credulity.
I'm not seeing much in the way of love, mercy or forgiveness in your image of God. Apparently he's arranging to have my kids fried, the bastard.
The only use I can see for it is to make the possesser feel rather special - for are they not, by their study and perspicacity, privy to the counsels of God?
I mean, humble acceptance of unknowing - where's the fun in that?
As I said, I don't know what else to say. I think that knowing that Judgement Day is right around the corner has value. If you don't find that knowledge useful, then that is certainly your right.
You know no such thing. You think it based on credulity and interpretation based on credulity.
I'm not seeing much in the way of love, mercy or forgiveness in your image of God. Apparently he's arranging to have my kids fried, the bastard.
I didn't say that I knew it. I said that it was predicted in Wion's prophecy which still remains to be verified.
YHWH is not "arranging" to have anyone "fried." We are making the arrangements ourselves, and we do that everytime that we build another ICBM or nuclear armed cruise missile. YHWH went to the trouble of becoming born as a human being in order to better teach us the Law of the Universe. But instead of loving our neighbors, we have built a massive arsenal of nuclear armed missiles to incinerate them.
There is a price to pay for that transgression. It is called, "Learning the hard way."
As I said, I don't know what else to say. I think that knowing that Judgement Day is right around the corner has value. If you don't find that knowledge useful, then that is certainly your right.
You know no such thing. You think it based on credulity and interpretation based on credulity.
I'm not seeing much in the way of love, mercy or forgiveness in your image of God. Apparently he's arranging to have my kids fried, the bastard.
I didn't say that I knew it. I said that it was predicted in Wion's prophecy which still remains to be verified.
YHWH is not "arranging" to have anyone "fried." We are making the arrangements ourselves, and we do that everytime that we build another ICBM or nuclear armed cruise missile. YHWH went to the trouble of becoming born as a human being in order to better teach us the Law of the Universe. But instead of loving our neighbors, we have built a massive arsenal of nuclear armed missiles to incinerate them.
There is a price to pay for that transgression. It is called, "Learning the hard way."
Who's this "we"? I've been pro unilateral nuclear disarmament since I learnt that the damned things existed. I'll sit that lesson out.
Besides which, you said:
Isaiah 66:15-16
For see how YHWH comes in fire,
His chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with the brilliant fire.
For by fire will YHWH execute judgement,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.
"He burned the house down to announce his arrival."
Patty Griffin"
What little I have to offer is on a different thread, but none of the participants here seem to like it very much.
And I do not agree with your dismissal of the OT prophets. See Isaiah 3:17-24 for a description of conditions for Jewish women in WW II slave labor camps.
Rabbi Yeshu said: "I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already !"
Some of the earth's inhabitants have already experienced the horror of that fire.
The rest will in just a few more years.
Isaiah 66:15-16 For see how YHWH comes in fire,
His chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with the brilliant fire.
For by fire will YHWH execute judgement,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.
"He burned the house down to announce his arrival."
Patty Griffin
I am sorry of the realities of the 21st century do not fit in with your benign theology.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t assume the role of teacher or interpreter one minute and then duck back down and claim you’re just a humble churchgoer with little to offer. None of us can.
James 3:1 if you set yourself up as a teacher, intent on informing others, you will be judged more harshly. Period.
The other bad news is 1 Peter 4:17. Any judgement, be it formative or summative, begins with God’s people. Which includes you and me both.
He is and will be looking for evidence of our compassion and humanity; the evidence of the fruit of His Spirit in our lives. If you see this as benign theology then you haven’t been paying attention.
Gifts of His Spirit - which of course includes discernment and interpretation - are only important in so far as we use them to help others. Wielding the tools themselves, even correctly is not important. (Matthew 7:21-23)
You are fixated on the timing and the instruments of His justice and part of you wants the satisfaction of being proved right. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
If this study really is your life’s work, as you claim, please consider what your life has become.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks; your heart is already burning.
Comments
I want to know why the fuck it's always Mary Magdalene.
Does nobody ever conspirate about some girl-next-door named Salome, or Deborah, or something?
Or go for the big time, and make it someone like Bernice, or Pontius Pilate's daughter, or whatever. But this MM stuff is just way past getting old.
Sheesh.
Answers on a postcard, please...
I suppose Salome-next-door, or Deborah-next-door, even if they were Mrs Rabbi Yeshu at some point, might have died (possibly in childbirth?) before the said Rabbi met MM.
Life was brutish and short in those days, and, I suspect, particularly so for women.
Because she is a naughty woman with a naughty past who is a) naughty and b) naughty.
Basically it’s titillation for men who need to get out more and who are therefore compelled to mansplain naughtiness in all its forms. At length.
Because, naughtiness.
Brown's description of the Engima Cipher (in Digital Fortress) left me the most confused I've ever been about the cipher.
The same that both you, Bishop's finger, and I do.
We are all heading towards the 'End Times'
It’s recursive. If I divulge that information your Bishop explodes.
(Maybe that’s a euphemism, maybe it’s not.)
Pius VII and His Imperial Majesty are both DEAD, but enjoying the Beatific Vision. We have that yet to come. The End Times won't affect them, and may not affect us either, if we die before they occur...
You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
It was, of course, @undead_rat to whom the request was directed. I await (with bated breath) an answer...
Really? Oh okay.
Although I don’t think the RCC is any more guilty of obsessing over sexual sin more than other denominations. It’s the easiest target; a quick way to convict people. The low hanging fruit, while the harder to discern branches of power, control and significance are rarely mentioned, let alone challenged.
To your faithful people,Lord, life is changed,it is not taken away.
BF Pius VII and Napoleon Bonaparte may well be DEAD and they may be enjoying the Beatific Vision.
One day we too, that's you and I BF, we too will be called to make that change and hopefully enjoy the Beatific Vision. these moments will be our own personal 'End Times'
From the moment of our birth we head towards that moment.
As someone said Life ,itself , is a sexually trasmitted, chronic and ultimately fatal disease.
Magnificent spotlighting, sir! Textbook!
Well, well. We live in hope.
Now *that* would be quite the gathering!
He has some that aren't religious, like "Deception Point": political suspense; science is a thread in the story; very fast-paced and happens over a couple of days, IIRC. Nothing about Jesus, religion, the Catholic church, or the pope's fave flavor of coffee.
Respectfully: Except dismissing even the idea of nuclear war (not as a prophecy, but a daily concern in the real world) comes across as crackpot, too. And *that* overshadows anything else said against the prophecies--which is unfortunate, if you want to dissuade people from taking the prophecies seriously.
As to QAnon: I think (parts of) it might have been invented/developed more purposefully.
I also think using 'crackpot' to include disregarding of nuclear war as a daily concern is a stretch of its ordinary usage.
Once? Do tell.
Gotta brush up on your World War Two history.
Ahh, I see. I grouped them as a set, one attack with two instances.
Here's an abacus. Comes in handy.
That little son died young and his tomb is in Les Invalides. His mother went off to Parma with her lover.
Catholic Answers pundit Jimmy Akin attempts to discredit the Prophecy of the Popes by mistranslating "depopulata" as destroyed. But "destroyed" is "diruetur" in Latin, and that word appears in prediction number 113.
Pius VII traveled all the way to Paris in order to preside at Napoleon's coronation, and the Pope blessed him at that event. Three days later Napoleon presented bronze eagle standards to his regiments. Pius VII always referred to Napoleon as "my dear son."
Both of these predictions were unusual. The prophecy would have been falsified by their failure, but that did not happen.
Diruetur is destroyed, true, there are multiple ways of saying the same thing in any language.
Wion's Prophecy of the Popes is actually a judgement day prediction. It states that, under the 39th Pope from 1590, "the terrible Judge will judge his people. Finis." The Roman Inquisition was founded in 1542 for the very purpose of prosecuting such heretical postulations, but, somehow, Wion's predictions avoided its attention. Recall that both Galileo and Nostradamus were summoned to appear before that court in the same time period. The Catholic Church has never condemned these predictions. Pope Pius XII even gave them a tacit endorsement. The very risky predictions did not falsify the prophecy though they easily could have.
Now we are on the brink of the last and most risky prediction. If Pope Francis leaves the papacy before its fulfillment, then Wion's final prediction, number 113, is falsified.
If you don't find knowing that Judgement Day will occur under the next Pope after Francis has any value, then I really don't know what else to say.
I thought the Pope refused to bless the coronation, but the detail of him doing so was added into the official painting of the event.
Or do you mean that he blessed Napoleon the man himself, apart from the ceremony?
"May God confirm you on this throne and may Christ give you to rule with Him in His eternal kingdom."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_of_Napoleon_I
Thought-experiment:
Suppose that five years ago, your studies revealed advanced warning of the present pandemic. Other than knowing that it was definitely coming and that you, along with other ordinary people will be powerless to stop it, what would you DO with that knowledge?
Okay, you share that knowledge with as many people as possible so that now we all know what’s coming.
The point is that apart from that, you have nothing to offer. Nothing. No cure, no alternative. “Look! See, it is written! Nothing can stop it!”
You may claim that the role of the prophet is not to provide comfort, but the cold, clinical truth, well unfortunately God has moved on. The whole Old Testament lone visionary crying-in-the-wilderness thing went out with John the Baptist. The role model is Jesus living and eating and sharing life with others. Prophets are integrated into the life of a congregation now and their pronouncements are subject to testing by others. And the first test is timing.
Nothing you have written offers encouragement or hope or promise or life or salvation in this hour of need. All you have to offer is cross-referencing and pain and death.
Where is the Good News, prophet?
Arithmetic =/= mathematics
I'd find that knowledge of great value, but doubt that I'll find it on this thread.
What little I have to offer is on a different thread, but none of the participants here seem to like it very much.
And I do not agree with your dismissal of the OT prophets. See Isaiah 3:17-24 for a description of conditions for Jewish women in WW II slave labor camps.
Rabbi Yeshu said:
"I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already !"
Some of the earth's inhabitants have already experienced the horror of that fire.
The rest will in just a few more years.
Isaiah 66:15-16
For see how YHWH comes in fire,
His chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with the brilliant fire.
For by fire will YHWH execute judgement,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.
"He burned the house down to announce his arrival."
Patty Griffin
I am sorry of the realities of the 21st century do not fit in with your benign theology.
Why should it make any difference to what I do or how I live? I might meet my end under a bus or in a hospital ward or in any other way before then. If somehow I knew what our Lord assured us no-one knows should I be a more diligent disciple because I ‘know’ the end is coming then, or less diligent because I ‘know’ that while this pope lives I’m OK? And why should I believe this obscure text tells me truly something which Jesus has said we don’t know?
You know no such thing. You think it based on credulity and interpretation based on credulity.
I'm not seeing much in the way of love, mercy or forgiveness in your image of God. Apparently he's arranging to have my kids fried, the bastard.
I mean, humble acceptance of unknowing - where's the fun in that?
I didn't say that I knew it. I said that it was predicted in Wion's prophecy which still remains to be verified.
YHWH is not "arranging" to have anyone "fried." We are making the arrangements ourselves, and we do that everytime that we build another ICBM or nuclear armed cruise missile. YHWH went to the trouble of becoming born as a human being in order to better teach us the Law of the Universe. But instead of loving our neighbors, we have built a massive arsenal of nuclear armed missiles to incinerate them.
There is a price to pay for that transgression. It is called, "Learning the hard way."
And what an interpreter you are.
Who's this "we"? I've been pro unilateral nuclear disarmament since I learnt that the damned things existed. I'll sit that lesson out.
Besides which, you said:
God doing it.
I am so fucking sick of bullshit.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t assume the role of teacher or interpreter one minute and then duck back down and claim you’re just a humble churchgoer with little to offer. None of us can.
James 3:1 if you set yourself up as a teacher, intent on informing others, you will be judged more harshly. Period.
The other bad news is 1 Peter 4:17. Any judgement, be it formative or summative, begins with God’s people. Which includes you and me both.
He is and will be looking for evidence of our compassion and humanity; the evidence of the fruit of His Spirit in our lives. If you see this as benign theology then you haven’t been paying attention.
Gifts of His Spirit - which of course includes discernment and interpretation - are only important in so far as we use them to help others. Wielding the tools themselves, even correctly is not important. (Matthew 7:21-23)
You are fixated on the timing and the instruments of His justice and part of you wants the satisfaction of being proved right. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
If this study really is your life’s work, as you claim, please consider what your life has become.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks; your heart is already burning.
@undead_rat - take heed...