Waiting for an elevator while black

Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
So our wonderful, compassionate, humanitarian police force beat a man unconscious, and then continue to beat him, and finally slam his head into an elevator door, because he refused to sit down when they told him to.

The police chief says wait a minute, you don't know the whole story, I'm going to release the body cam video any minute now so you can see everything that took place.

But what's he waiting for? Why doesn't he release it immediately? Is he trying to edit it to make his bully thugs look good?

I don't care what the whole story is. I can't imagine any story in which four policemen beat an unarmed civilian until he is unconscious, and then continue to beat him and brutalize him, as having any "whole" other than that.

Can you?
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Comments

  • No I can't.

    What I find hard to comprehend is that the ethnic diversity of police forces, which was supposed to help end racially-motivated abuse by police, doesn't seem to have worked. How can it be possible that in 2018 it is still about culture and training?

    This paragraph is at the end of the linked article:
    As a result of the incident, the Mesa Police Department has changed its use-of-force policy so that officers can only hit people in the head or face if they become physically violent, officials said. Previously, the policy could be interpreted that it was acceptable for an officer punch someone even before they turned violent.

    Cops have to be able to use physical force, but surely the standard must be 'necessary and appropriate in all the circumstances' or similar loose wording, allowing cops who are trained to use non-violent strategies first, and not lose their cool at the slightest challenge to their authority. A cop's weapon of choice should be her voice.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Law enforcement as a profession attracts bullies and thugs who welcome the opportunity to practice their bullying and thuggery under color of law.
  • Simon Toad--

    I think most of them aren't suitably trained (or at all) in non-violent strategies. Heard something on the radio in the last couple of months about a group that teaches non-violent strategies to cops. IIRC, it was rough going, though some cops said later that it was helpful.

    I think I remember what show it was on. I'll see if I can find it.
  • Addendum to the above:

    "What cops aren’t learning" (Reveal, from the Center for Investigative Reporting). Audio podcast, summary, and links to deeper research. Transcript at the very bottom of the page.

    IME, Reveal is a really good show. Manages depth without causing boredom. :) I listen on KQED public radio.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    It's not just a question of training. You need an organization with the authority to investigate complaints, such as our Independent Office for Police Conduct: https://policeconduct.gov.uk/ Otherwise the bad apples will continue on their merry way, however much training they get on de-escalation and nonviolent methods of restraining people.
  • There are citizens' committees, in some places, that do some of that. But I don't think they have much power.
  • I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Law enforcement as a profession attracts bullies and thugs who welcome the opportunity to practice their bullying and thuggery under color of law.

    Yes and No. From secondary school I knew an even division (2 and 2) who joined police forces. Two did it for the right reasons - to serve and protect - and one of those two also trained as a nurse beforehand. A man of the highest standard. (I really should tell him that some day.) Two did it, as you describe, for the wrong reasons.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Subsequent release of the bodycam video, with audio track, reveals that Robert Johnson had some choice remarks to make after he regained consciousness to the bullies disguised as police officers. Something along the lines of "Do you enjoy putting your hands on me while I'm restrained?" Then he added, "I'm going to eat you for a snack" and "I'm going to [do something unchristian] to your girlfriend."

    For which I applaud him. Bravo! Well said! (Although I'm probably wicked to do so for the final remark.)

    Of course, his reward for same was having his head slammed into the elevator door.

    His lawyer has pointed out that words are not weapons.
  • Jane R wrote: »
    It's not just a question of training. You need an organization with the authority to investigate complaints, such as our Independent Office for Police Conduct: https://policeconduct.gov.uk/ Otherwise the bad apples will continue on their merry way, however much training they get on de-escalation and nonviolent methods of restraining people.

    This is critical. In my home state there is currently pressure to move the investigation and complaints process outside of Victoria Police. In my judgement if the current Govt is re-elected later this year this will probably happen. The Police Association opposes it.

    Its ironic that these policemen were responding to a domestic violence complaint.

    On violence, I have personal experience of the red mist descending, but my mist tends to involve shouting. I think I am capable of hitting someone in that state, and so it is one to be avoided at all costs. Shouting too is to be avoided. I guess I say that because part of me can comprehend doing what those cops did. Not coming in with the coward's hit to the kidney, not punching the guy in the face repeatedly, but maybe putting all my weight into kneeing him in the back.

    I would need training in how to manage that red mist, how to insert a circuit breaker into my escalating scale of violence. Because that is what it is, that red mist. That's male violence, even if all I do is shout and stomp around. If I couldn't manage it, I would have to go.

    So that's where I put myself in that picture. I'm an offender.
  • Interesting effect that Street Pastors have on crime in the UK. Arrests have decreased partly because there are now independent witnesses to Police winding up other people to goad them into a fight.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    There’s 20+ minutes of body cam and security footage edited together here on YouTube. It was obviously a longer encounter than the news-edited footage suggests.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Jane R wrote: »
    I would need training in how to manage that red mist, how to insert a circuit breaker into my escalating scale of violence.
    One doesn't train anger away, but reduce that anger. I have anger management issues and attempting self-control is not the path. It is changing one's behaviours to reduce and eliminate that anger.
    Because that is what it is, that red mist. That's male violence,
    Not only men have anger issues. Male violence is the acceptability of anger in men, not an innate anger.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    There’s 20+ minutes of body cam and security footage edited together here on YouTube. It was obviously a longer encounter than the news-edited footage suggests.
    I watched the video. The victim was not being cooperative, but the real problem is twofold. One is in that the police expect deference and expect it immediately. The other is that the police used excessive force. Punches and knees were used immediately in a situation that they were not justified at all.
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Simon Toad--

    I think most of them aren't suitably trained (or at all) in non-violent strategies. Heard something on the radio in the last couple of months about a group that teaches non-violent strategies to cops. IIRC, it was rough going, though some cops said later that it was helpful.

    I think I remember what show it was on. I'll see if I can find it.

    Many years ago I was detailed as a Petty Officer RN as ship's company of a destroyer, to temporarily assist the Red Cap shore patrol in Hong Kong, during the Viet Nam war.

    There were some USA Navy ships also in port at the time on R&R so they had detailed off a Leading Hand to assist as well.

    Our job was to approach drunken shipmates, present a known face and calm any disturbance with as little trouble as possible. The RN personnel were equipped with truncheons. The USA Navy Leading Hand had a large baseball bat, with which he sat opposite me in the Black Mariah van saying, while he slapped the baseball bat into the palm of his hand, "Gee I hope we get some trouble tonight, I want to break a few heads".

    I get the impression that his attitude was not uncommon among his colleagues, indeed not uncommon perhaps among police officials the USA over.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    My impression is that there is culturally a different register of deference in the UK than in the USA. So, for example, an American approaching me as politely as a stranger will very often call me ‘sir’ which in the UK I’d expect only from staff in a very upmarket shop (or from a police officer dealing with me very formally). If that is a kind of norm of cultural expectation then the gap between that norm and the actual behaviour of the man in question is bigger than it would seem on this side of the pond.

    That said, my expectation would be that if I didn’t respond to the reasonably worded, “Take a seat.” I’d get a much more explicit “Please sit down on the floor” and here I’d not be surprised if the officer addressed me as ‘sir’.

    If I failed to respond to that, then I’d expect something more forceful - although still not the flurry of fists and knees that appears to have followed in this case.

    Anyway my point is that if a higher level of deference is culturally expected then what just looks to me like rather sullen behaviour might be or appear to be much ruder by contrast. Still not an excuse for the violence offered.
  • People with anger management issues have no business being cops. Period. Full stop. Nothing more to say.
  • BroJames--

    Some good points there. I think that the guy had ample reason for anger at the police, but he was really unwise to say it to them.

    If someone's already beaten you up, don't give them reason to do it again.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    BroJames--

    Some good points there. I think that the guy had ample reason for anger at the police, but he was really unwise to say it to them.

    If someone's already beaten you up, don't give them reason to do it again.

    Yebbut, doesn't the same US culture which expects deference also laud standing one's ground and fighting back against the bad guys, in this case the cops?
  • lilbuddha the points you make above are well made.
  • Karl--

    AIUI, African-American kids--boys, in particular--are often taught by their parents how to behave during an encounter with the police--in order to get away safely, or at least not aggravate the cops further.

    Insulting and/or fighting cops is never a good idea for anyone to do--especially people from a target group.

    As I said, "If someone's already beaten you up, don't give them reason to do it again."

    And don't give them reasons to charge you with resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, disturbing the peace, etc.
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    AIUI, African-American kids--boys, in particular--are often taught by their parents how to behave during an encounter with the police--in order to get away safely, or at least not aggravate the cops further.
    I haven't watched the video, and I don't intend to, but ISTM that being set upon by superior numbers is quite likely to invoke either a fight or flight response - with flight, in these sorts of situations, being a passive, freezing sort of reaction - a flight inwards, as it were, or - well, fight - aggression answering aggression. It may be instinctive - it may not be possible to train it out.
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Insulting and/or fighting cops is never a good idea for anyone to do--especially people from a target group.

    As I said, "If someone's already beaten you up, don't give them reason to do it again."

    And don't give them reasons to charge you with resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, disturbing the peace, etc.
    ...yebbut...that all sounds a leetle like "don't wear short skirts, don't go out alone at night, don't walk down dark alleys," to my ear - and it seems we might, possibly, be entering an era where people are realising that a better message is "Don't freaking rape people!!" It's all very well to say that wandering around drunk and scantily dressed in the small hours of the morning is a monumentally stupid thing for a woman to do - but the wider point is that this is only the case because there are some monumentally horrible people out there - and should the rest of us, really, have to arrange our lives around their awfulness? Or should we call it out?
  • This is what I've gotten from many, many media interviews with and coverage of African Americans. Not something I invented. Parents try to make sure they have The Talk about how to behave in any encounter with police; and one of the rules is to do exactly what the cops say, without any resistance or arguing. Any venting, or deciding whether to file a complaint or lawsuit, can be done once the person is safely home.

    It's awful that they need to do that. And yes, the police problems should be fixed. But the problems are endemic, and there don't seem to be any solutions that would fix anything soon enough to prevent more hassles with the police.

    As to the other example: I believe that everyone should be safe everywhere and everytime, with the possible exception of people out to do harm. But that's not the world we've got; and, since we're here, we need to protect ourselves wisely in *this* world.

    So it's best to avoid dangerous situations, even if you (gen.) have to curtail your actions.

    FWIW.
  • The Talk™ is something I've seen BME (black minority ethnic) young people given as a way to deal with police and officials in the UK too. Because the arrest and prosecution rates are disproportionate for BME and white people.
  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    anoesis wrote: »
    ...yebbut...that all sounds a leetle like "don't wear short skirts, don't go out alone at night, don't walk down dark alleys," to my ear - and it seems we might, possibly, be entering an era where people are realising that a better message is "Don't freaking rape people!!" It's all very well to say that wandering around drunk and scantily dressed in the small hours of the morning is a monumentally stupid thing for a woman to do - but the wider point is that this is only the case because there are some monumentally horrible people out there - and should the rest of us, really, have to arrange our lives around their awfulness? Or should we call it out?

    You're conflating two issues here - the broader societal one, where we need to remove the larger problem, and the immediate one, which is not getting one's ass kicked here and now. It's a good thing to call out police brutality - when in a crowd, protesting the government, etc. It's a different (and far more dangerous) matter to tell Officer Unfriendly "you can't beat me! This is illegal!" while he's swinging a nightstick...
    Golden Key wrote: »
    This is what I've gotten from many, many media interviews with and coverage of African Americans. Not something I invented. Parents try to make sure they have The Talk about how to behave in any encounter with police; and one of the rules is to do exactly what the cops say, without any resistance or arguing. Any venting, or deciding whether to file a complaint or lawsuit, can be done once the person is safely home.

    This. I'm a white male who grew up in a largely African American neighborhood, and I got The Talk. (The police aren't *always* terribly worried about whose ass they kick in a "bad" neighborhood...)
    Golden Key wrote: »
    As to the other example: I believe that everyone should be safe everywhere and everytime, with the possible exception of people out to do harm. But that's not the world we've got; and, since we're here, we need to protect ourselves wisely in *this* world.

    So it's best to avoid dangerous situations, even if you (gen.) have to curtail your actions.

    FWIW.

    This.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Golden Key wrote: »
    As to the other example: I believe that everyone should be safe everywhere and everytime, with the possible exception of people out to do harm. But that's not the world we've got; and, since we're here, we need to protect ourselves wisely in *this* world.

    So it's best to avoid dangerous situations, even if you (gen.) have to curtail your actions.

    Obvious corollary: if interacting with the police is inherently dangerous for non-white people, one of the interactions they're going to curtail is interacting in any way with the police.
    The shots stopped as quickly as they had started. The man disappeared between some buildings. Chest heaving, hands shaking, I tried to calm my crying daughter, while my husband, friends, and I all looked at one another in breathless disbelief. I turned to check on Hunter, a high school intern from Oregon who was staying with my family for a few weeks, but she was on the phone.

    "Someone was just shooting on the beach," she said, between gulps of air, to the person on the line.

    Unable to imagine whom she would be calling at that moment, I asked her, somewhat indignantly, if she couldn’t have waited until we got to safety before calling her mom.

    "No," she said. "I am talking to the police."

    My friends and I locked eyes in stunned silence. Between the four adults, we hold six degrees. Three of us are journalists. And not one of us had thought to call the police. We had not even considered it.

    We also are all black. And without realizing it, in that moment, each of us had made a set of calculations, an instantaneous weighing of the pros and cons.

    As far as we could tell, no one had been hurt. The shooter was long gone, and we had seen the back of him for only a second or two. On the other hand, calling the police posed considerable risks.

    It carried the very real possibility of inviting disrespect, even physical harm. We had seen witnesses treated like suspects, and knew how quickly black people calling the police for help could wind up cuffed in the back of a squad car. Some of us knew of black professionals who'd had guns drawn on them for no reason.

    <snip>

    Last Fourth of July, in a few short minutes as we adults watched the teenager among us talking to the police, we saw Hunter become a little more like us, her faith a little shaken, her place in the world a little less stable. Hunter, who is biracial and lives with her white mother in a heavily white area, had not been exposed to the policing many black Americans face. She was about to be.

    On the phone, she could offer only the most generic of suspect descriptions, which apparently made the officer on the other end of the line suspicious. By way of explanation, Hunter told the officer she was just 16. The police called her back: once, twice, then three times, asking her for more information. The interactions began to feel menacing. "I'm not from here," Hunter said. "I've told you everything I know."

    The fourth time the police called, she looked frightened. Her interrogator asked her, "Are you really trying to be helpful, or were you involved in this?" She turned to us, her voice aquiver. "Are they going to come get me?"

    "See," one of us said, trying to lighten the mood. "That's why we don't call them."

    We all laughed, but it was hollow.

    Just so we're clear, @Golden Key's advice inherently advocates the position that Hunter (from the article) only has herself to blame for expecting the police to be helpful.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Second obvious corollary: White people will sometimes use police as legalized executioners and enforcers against non-white people they have a disagreement with.
    “I’m gonna call the cops! I’ll tell them you hit me!” the woman screamed, sitting on the grass and pointing at her ex. “I’ll tell them you beat me up. They’ll get your ass.”

    The man stopped dead in his tracks, turned around and gave her a look of shock, anger and then unmitigated fear. He was black. She was white. He knew exactly what she was saying and so did I, and most horrendously, so did she. When white people threaten to call the police on black people — out of anger, out of spite, out of pure vindictiveness — they are effectively saying, “I’ll kill you!” They’re just using a legal extension of white supremacy to do it. It’s high time we start considering these bigots just as much a threat as the police they summon to do their bidding.

    This week, black America added “sitting at Starbucks waiting for a white friend” to the list of things that we cannot safely do without fear of police violence. Previous entries included sitting in your car, sitting in someone else’s car, standing on your front porch, standing on your back porch, surviving a car accident, asking for directions to school and, of course, breathing.

    As a black man in America who has been harassed by police more times than I can count, I wasn’t surprised by the viral Starbucks video at all. However, my anger is directed not just at the cops but also at the cowardly Starbucks manager who made the call to the police to begin with. The men and women making these outrageous and unwarranted calls to police, which result in the harassment, unfair prosecution and even death of people of color, need to be found, publicly shamed and prosecuted to the full extent that the law allows.

    No, I’m not talking about Dave Reiling, the man who reported an actual crime in Sacramento, Calif., that the police used as an excuse to shoot Stephon Clark in his own backyard. Calling the police to report an actual crime that the police overact to is not the citizen’s fault, no matter what color he or she is. I’m talking about the hundreds of cases — that we know about — every year, where white Americans actively and knowingly use the police as an extension of their personal bigotry yet face no consequences.
  • Very good points Croesus. Isn't these types of issues why Sanctuary Cities exist - so that immigrants don't have to worry about being reported to ICE when reporting crimes?
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    jbohn wrote: »
    anoesis wrote: »
    ...yebbut...that all sounds a leetle like "don't wear short skirts, don't go out alone at night, don't walk down dark alleys," to my ear - and it seems we might, possibly, be entering an era where people are realising that a better message is "Don't freaking rape people!!" It's all very well to say that wandering around drunk and scantily dressed in the small hours of the morning is a monumentally stupid thing for a woman to do - but the wider point is that this is only the case because there are some monumentally horrible people out there - and should the rest of us, really, have to arrange our lives around their awfulness? Or should we call it out?

    You're conflating two issues here - the broader societal one, where we need to remove the larger problem, and the immediate one, which is not getting one's ass kicked here and now. It's a good thing to call out police brutality - when in a crowd, protesting the government, etc. It's a different (and far more dangerous) matter to tell Officer Unfriendly "you can't beat me! This is illegal!" while he's swinging a nightstick...

    My original post has been slightly misinterpreted, I feel. I wasn't trying to say that it was in any way inappropriate for someone, when confronted by potentially menacing cops, to take a softly-softly approach - more that, when, for whatever inscrutable reason, someone doesn't, it's inappropriate for another someone, on a message board somewhere, to effectively say, 'I can't understand why he would inflame the situation like that - he must've had 'the talk''. It was that which I was comparing to 'Well, don't walk down dark alleys by yourself'.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    If white people had to give their children such a talk, police reform would have already happened.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If white people had to give their children such a talk, police reform would have already happened.

    Perhaps. Or perhaps the world would just be that much shittier. Because authoritarianism doesn't need much excuse.
  • You mean, white folk haven't had the talk with their kids?

    Parenting fail right there.
  • It's different @Doc Tor I have been there for one the BME tutors giving The Talk™ to a BME youngster and it's not the same talk as the one I gave.
  • It depends what you told them.

    I grew up in a part of the country where white people were brutallised by the police possibly because there weren't enough BME people to harrass.

    I've been on enough demos to know who they're policing and who they're protecting.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If white people had to give their children such a talk, police reform would have already happened.

    Perhaps. Or perhaps the world would just be that much shittier. Because authoritarianism doesn't need much excuse.
    Can always count on you for a review from the bright side.
    Sucks that this is likely true, though.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    It depends what you told them.

    I grew up in a part of the country where white people were brutallised by the police possibly because there weren't enough BME people to harrass.

    I've been on enough demos to know who they're policing and who they're protecting.
    Police abuse is intersectional. However, until it intersects with posh/rich, white people in the way that it does with PoC no matter the class or income, my statement stands.
  • Ah, the discrimination Olympics. Yes, black people have it bad. Nowhere have I disputed that.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin
    edited June 2018
    So what's the definition of someone who can't quote properly on a message board that nests quotes automatically?

    Oh, yes. An idiot.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Ah, the discrimination Olympics.
    :rolleyes:
    Yes, black people have it bad. Nowhere have I disputed that.
    I didn't think that you failed to understand this. However, posting a "white people have that problem too" kinda gives that feel. And you just did what you are implying I did. It dawns on me who I might compare that to, but I won't.
    Basically, what CK said.
  • For someone who's whole reason-for-being on these boards is to convince everyone how woke you are, I'd have thought that when someone talks about their lived experience, your go-to wouldn't be "say what, whitey?"

    So, no. Having been mugged didn't turn me into a Tory. And in an attempt to make sure my kids are at least marginally able to navigate (and help their friends) a potentially difficult situation with the police, damn straight I've told them what the worst can be.

    None of which negates the problems of being black while. Except you think it does, because you're a special kind of arrogance and ignorance and stupidity.

    Every parent needs to have that talk with their kids. Posh, rich white parents too, because they might have posh, rich black friends.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    We gave The Talk™ to kids who were photographed at a particularly violent West Ham v Milwall game and on EDL marches. I know, I work with all the best kids. Those Talks™ did not compare to the ones I've seen BME give BME kids. The most obsequious was given by a Pakistani Muslim, and what he said he had to do to stay safe with the police made me ashamed.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    For someone who's whole reason-for-being on these boards is to convince everyone how woke you are,
    Damn! You are psychic! Wait, there is another word that starts with an s sound that works better here.
    I'd have thought that when someone talks about their lived experience, your go-to wouldn't be "say what, whitey?"
    Not what I’m saying. Just making the very real point that if the average white person had the same level of need of the talk that PoC do, the problem would be addressed. Perhaps, as Rook suggests, it would go full dystopia, but it would not remain as it is.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    The most obsequious was given by a Pakistani Muslim, and what he said he had to do to stay safe with the police made me ashamed.
    That shame, and the anger it generates, is why some people, cannot find it in themselves to “just comply”.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    edited June 2018
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    So what's the definition of someone who can't quote properly on a message board that nests quotes automatically? Oh, yes. An idiot.

    I deleted my offending post. I certainly don't want to get shot for posting while being an idiot.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Not what I’m saying.

    Oh dear Lord, are you hiding behind this again?
    Seriously, what you posted:
    If white people had to give their children such a talk, police reform would have already happened.
    What I posted:
    You mean, white folk haven't had the talk with their kids?
    What you posted:
    until it intersects with posh/rich, white people in the way that it does with PoC no matter the class or income, my statement stands.
    So that's exactly what you said first time around. White people - working class people, left wing people, poor people, white people - have been having the talk with their kids since before the Peterloo Massacre.

    And somehow, unless it affects the tiny amount of 1%s, you know, the ones who the police are paid to protect, you're willing to throw any suggestion of solidarity under the bus. If only your knee didn't spasm at slightest suggestion that someone with a paler complexion might just understand what it is to fall foul of the police force, we might have had an intelligent conversation about this and reached some modicum of agreement.

    But no. You chose to be a dick. Well done.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    But no. You chose to be a dick. Well done.
    The Brexit campaign was aimed at, listened to and supported by a large percentage of white and poor. That is a level of power that PoC don’t have, regardless of income level.
    That is a level of power that can accomplish things when it chooses to.
    As far as allies, what should cause solidarity doesn’t. The working-class should be natural allies to the foreign and PoC. Brexit and history indicate otherwise.
    That doesn’t mean I dismiss their problems, I don’t.
    But this thread is about an issue of being black. And that is different to the issues of being poor.

  • The working-class should be natural allies to the foreign and PoC. Brexit and history indicate otherwise.

    Fear of losing what little they have to Johnny Foreigner I expect. Baseless fear, but fear nonetheless. Do people in Britain remember what it was like to be poor?
  • ExclamationMarkExclamationMark Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    The working-class should be natural allies to the foreign and PoC. Brexit and history indicate otherwise.
    Do people in Britain remember what it was like to be poor?

    Some of us do. Some of us are (relative to others in Britain) but not, of course relative to others across the world.

    Try reading Chav by Owen Jones. It'll help you to understand.


    Not simply a case of remembering actually being.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    What is "PoC", please?

    I looked it up. Most sensible option is some kind of card for Pakistanis.

    ETA: Oh, is it "People of Color"?

    Thx.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    The Brexit campaign was aimed at, listened to and supported by a large percentage of white and poor. That is a level of power that PoC don’t have, regardless of income level.

    No. The largest demographic of white people who voted Leave were older white people, many of whom lived in the more prosperous south.

    This is not to discount that some of the poor white working class also voted for Brexit. Neither does it discount the 25%+ of BAME voters who also voted Leave.

    But you don't get to make your own facts up. And none of which has to do with police interactions with members of the public.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    The working-class should be natural allies to the foreign and PoC. Brexit and history indicate otherwise.
    Do people in Britain remember what it was like to be poor?

    Some of us do. Some of us are (relative to others in Britain) but not, of course relative to others across the world.

    Try reading Chav by Owen Jones. It'll help you to understand.


    Not simply a case of remembering actually being.

    https://unherd.com/2018/06/noise-victimhood-culture-drowned-plight-poor/
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