Most apparitions are either discouraged by the authorities of the RC Church until such a time as they can be relatively harmlessly, but spiritually profitably incorporated into the devotional life of the Church and her Faithful.
Medjugorje is not at that stage yet and the local bishop is, as far as I know, very much against the devotion.
So... does the question of whether the visions are genuine or not become essentially irrelevant? Or does the Church tend to come down on one side or the other eventually?
The Church only comes down authoritatively on the authentic truth (as they see it) of the Gospel.
Certainly the Church authorities will at times actively promote particular devotions, e.g. Lourdes, Jasna Gora and many others but no Catholic is obliged, either to believe in the apparitions, or 'miracles' nor to make a pilgrimage to such places.
OK that is interesting. So you could be a Roman Catholic in good standing and yet believe that Lourdes, Fatima etcetera were all nonsense?
Yes. That's something I recall reading in an official Catholic catechism somewhere.
Though personally, if I were a Catholic in good standing who thought that that Lourdes, Fatima etc. were all nonsense, I might find it a little disquieting that so many people in the church hierarchy seem to believe in them.
Perhaps not nonsense, but not necessary for salvation?
Well, when it comes to, say, Young Earth Creationism, were I a Christian, not only would I likely think that it was unneccesary for salvation, I would also be 100% convinced that it wasn't true.
And the difference between being certain that something is not true, and thinking that it's nonsense, is a pretty slight one, I would say.
To me ,it all depends what you understand by the word 'nonsense' There are certain devotions which for some people play a major part in their spiritual life.
Ultimately we all have to make an act of faith in what we believe about Jesus Christ and how we accept the various doctrines which come from the historic creeds.
Once we classify anything as 'nonsense' we run the risk of classifying what some Christians see as the truths of the Gospel as, 'nonsense'
For example I don't see the stories of Lourdes as one gigantic con. I find great spiritual consolation in the story of Lourdes and everything which has happened there since 11th February 1858.
I think that each Christian has a set of accompaniments to their religious faith. It could be an author. It could be the example of another person. It could be the story of a particular place.
Often we are able to accept or want to accept a particular devotion because it fits in with our own personal history.
In the same way many Anglicans, particularly Anglo-Catholics, will have a particular devotion to our Lady of Walsingham. It is after all soo English but it is just another form of the (later) story of the 'Santa Casa di Loreto'
At one time all over (Catholic )Europe there were copies of the Holy House. Nowadays these have mainly been replaced by copies of the grotto of Lourdes.
There is a private school just outside of Edinburgh called Loretto. The ground on which it is built, just beside Musselburgh Racecourse, was where the Holy House stood.
After the Reformation it was destroyed and the stones used for the building of Musselburgh Town Hall.
There is a private school just outside of Edinburgh called Loretto. The ground on which it is built, just beside Musselburgh Racecourse, was where the Holy House stood.
After the Reformation it was destroyed and the stones used for the building of Musselburgh Town Hall.
Yes those Scots were extremely thoroughgoing weren't they... whereas Cromwell & co. would merely rip the images out of the cathedral, the Scots would get rid of the entire cathedral, as at St. Andrew's...
Wow. Thank you @Forthview both for your very thought-provoking post and also for the reference to the Holy House of Loreto. I have known about Loretto school for a long time but I never knew what it was named after. Having looked at the Wikipedia article I have to confess that to these Evo ears the "Holy House" makes the Shroud look like the last word in down-to-earth realism. But I have no wish to hinder anything that is genuinely bringing people closer to God as you say.
Okay, okay. Maybe I was a little hard on the Marian apparitions and their devotees. Mariology was one of the first things I reacted against when disengaging from Catholicism, and I guess it's always kind of lingered.
(Though I do find the political propaganda emanating from Our Lady Of Fatima, attested to by no less than Sister Lucia herself, pretty irredeemable.)
I am prepared to put good money on the table and assert that Pius XII probably was not giving a moment's thought to Wion and his ravings at the time he chose that name.
Do you really think that it was accidental that St. Pius X choose his Prophecy of the Popes motto for the title of his 1942 film? As reported in the newspapers of that time, the title was taken from the St. Malachy prophecy.
I am prepared to put good money on the table and assert that Pius XII probably was not giving a moment's thought to Wion and his ravings at the time he chose that name.
Do you really think that it was accidental that St. Pius X choose his Prophecy of the Popes motto for the title of his 1942 film? As reported in the newspapers of that time, the title was taken from the St. Malachy prophecy.
Yes.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
stetson there are lots of people with RC backgrounds or even RC faith today who show little or no interest in Marian devotions and I can understand why you reacted against them when disengaging from Catholicism.
I think that religion has often got to be understood alongside political systems. You have to look at the Portugal of the period in the early 1910s as well as the time of the coming Russian Revolution and what was seen , certainly by a good number of Catholics, as an attempt to overthrow religion (not just to prohibit Marian devotions)
The 'Third Secret' which is said to have been written in the early 1940s by Sister Lucia at the insistent request of the local bishop and recalling what she thought the Virgin had said to her and sent from there to Rome with the request that it should not be opened till 1960. When the 'Secret' was revealed finally about 40 years after that it was acknowledged that Sister Lucia had seen things in the light of what was going on in the world at that time.
It is much the same with the film Pastor Angelicus which @undead rat said had been specially commissioned by Pius XII to indicate that he was indeed 'Pastor Angelicus'
It is almost impossible for Pius XII never to have heard of the prophecies of Malachy and not to have known that in these prophecies he was Pastor Angelicus. Whether he believed in the prophecies in the same way that @undead rat seems to, is highly debatable.
'Pastor Angelicus' seems to me to be a very noble title, prophecies apart.
I watched the whole of the film earlier today. It was made as a documentary, in 1942 right in the middle of WW2 and just two years after Pius became pope. I have absolutely no idea whether Pius ,himself, commissioned the film. The English blurb on the internet said ,
cast -Pius XII , and the film was in Italian but I doubt very much that Pius saw himself as a budding film star.
He was,however,the only person who talked really excerpts from some of his many early speeches, That is apart from one person who announced at an appropriate moment,
Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum. Habemus papam......... (already translated)
The film reminded me of a later Catholic propaganda film close to the end of WW2 frod
Defensor Civitatis (Defender of the City) documenting from a Catholic point of view all that Pius did to protect the City of Rome from destruction
As a non-RC, I do find some of the Marian stuff a bit underwhelming, or indeed incomprehensible, but I have a lot of time for Walsingham and the good work that the Shrine does (albeit preferring to visit at quieter off-peak periods!).
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
Do you have any proof that Pius XII considered this documentary to be considered as an autobiography. ? as @undead rat alleges.
Over the last few months on British TV there has been a constant series of programmes about the Royal Family. Are we supposed to believe that the British queen personally considers these to be true biographies or autobiographies ?
On the other hand,I'd like to share with you 'the story of the 10 Most Evil popes in world history.'
Of the 10 the 5th worst is Pius IX (1846-1878),the 5rd worst is John XIII (1958-1963),but the very worst of all time is Pius XII (1939-1958).
According to the informative website, which doesn't mention Pastor angelicus,Pius was personally responsible for all of Hitler's atrocities suggesting many of them to Hitler.He was also responsible for the thousands of murders in Croatia, making him,. according to the website ,the 'most evil pope in world history'.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
I am prepared to put good money on the table and assert that Pius XII probably was not giving a moment's thought to Wion and his ravings at the time he chose that name.
Do you really think that it was accidental that St. Pius X choose his Prophecy of the Popes motto for the title of his 1942 film? As reported in the newspapers of that time, the title was taken from the St. Malachy prophecy.
I agree with what Bishop's Finger (very succinctly) and Forthview (at greater length) have said.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
Is calling one's autobiographical film "Pastor Angelicus" not a little... immodest?
I don't know much about his personality, but maybe he met it as a joke or sarcasm?
Or perhaps it was a joke between him and Sister Pascalina? They were close friends, and she took care of him throughout her life, and aided him in his work. (Seems to have been a platonic relationship.) She's said to have been "the power behind the throne", was smart, and very formidable. It's been said that if she'd been a man, she'd have been the next pope after Pius XII.
She was jokingly called "the Godmother", a female version of a Mafia boss.
Is calling one's autobiographical film "Pastor Angelicus" not a little... immodest?
I don't know much about his personality, but maybe he met it as a joke or sarcasm?
Or perhaps it was a joke between him and Sister Pascalina? They were close friends, and she took care of him throughout her life, and aided him in his work. (Seems to have been a platonic relationship.) She's said to have been "the power behind the throne", was smart, and very formidable. It's been said that if she'd been a man, she'd have been the next pope after Pius XII.
She was jokingly called "the Godmother", a female version of a Mafia boss.
I don't think the Vatican did irony. Affirming the consequent strikes again: 'I am in the footprints of the Fisherman, therefore I am "Pastor Angelicus"'. And the predicate is nonsense as well of course.
You are here! Now I ask you: what should we, as a group you are sharing these things with, do in our daily lives or in planning our future lives with this info you are giving us. Thank you.
Is calling one's autobiographical film "Pastor Angelicus" not a little... immodest?
It would seem so, but then many at that time knew where that phrase came and that would have made it more acceptable. Pius XII is not the only 20th century pope to have mentioned Wion's predictions. Prior to the start of WW I, Pope St. Pius X is reported to have mentioned the ominous "Religio depopulata" in his prediction of the great war.
"I feel sorry for my successor.. . .Religio depopulata is imminent."
You are here! Now I ask you: what should we, as a group you are sharing these things with, do in our daily lives or in planning our future lives with this info you are giving us. Thank you.
I really can't answer this question for you.
The predictions seem to be a signal that the world is in its last days, and that things, as bad as they seem now, are going to get worse.
It's our children that will have to endure what YHWH has in store. If they can be brought to understand the religious significance of events, that may make it easier for them to carry on. The Master did say, "When you see these things happening, hold your heads high, for your deliverance is close at hand."
You are here! Now I ask you: what should we, as a group you are sharing these things with, do in our daily lives or in planning our future lives with this info you are giving us. Thank you.
I really can't answer this question for you.
The predictions seem to be a signal that the world is in its last days, and that things, as bad as they seem now, are going to get worse.
This seems profoundly ungrateful. I would much rather live right now than at virtually any time in history. We should be thanking God for the incredible blessings that life currently holds for so many rather than moaning about how "bad" things are.
It's our children that will have to endure what YHWH has in store. If they can be brought to understand the religious significance of events, that may make it easier for them to carry on. The Master did say, "When you see these things happening, hold your heads high, for your deliverance is close at hand."
We should always be ready for the return of Jesus and remember that "our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed". Surely we should "keep watch, for you do not know the day or the hour". Jesus also said "Many false prophets will arise and deceive many people" and I reckon the "St. Malachy prophecies" are a prime example of that.
I'm sorry,@undead_rat, but this is NOT a film where pope Pius XII is consciously playing himself. It is a series of newsreel film with a commentary of a type which would have been usual in the 1940s,50s and 60s.
It's as if you are saying that the British Queen considers herself a film star doing an autobiography each time she carries out some ceremony in public.
The film was by the Centro Cattolico Cinematografico to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the episcopal consecration of Eugenio Pacelli. There are only three items of speech in it
1.the cardinal deacon announcing the choice of Eugenio Pacelli as pope
2. Pius XII giving his first blessing (both of these are in Latin)
3. 3 at the end of the film there are snippets from the 25th anniversary Mass celebrated by Pius and a short speech he gave in Italian to those present in St Peter's thanking them and reminding them of the close relationship between the citizens of Rome and the Holy See.
The pope is not acting any more than he would be on any other occasion.
There are some very rare shots of Pius walking in the Vatican gardens but that is the only thing which might be understood as anything about his private life.
The film makers tell us that the film was made 'per illustrare la missione che il papa va svolgendo come padre universale in un tragico periodo della storia umana'
(to illustrate the mission which the pope is carrying out as universal father in a tragic period for humanity)
You are here! Now I ask you: what should we, as a group you are sharing these things with, do in our daily lives or in planning our future lives with this info you are giving us. Thank you.
I really can't answer this question for you.
Then I can’t figure out why you think we should waste our time paying attention to them.
@undead_rat given that the film was put together by a specifically Catholic organisation I would not be surprised if Pius were aware of it.. They would undoubtedly have told him that they were putting together some sort of record and sought his approval.
I cannot argue that he did not suggest the title.as everyone, but everyone in Rome would be aware that the 262nd successor of St Peter had been accorded , in these well known 'prophecies',the title of Pastor angelicus. I think it more likely that he agreed to the title rather than suggested it, but that is a minor point.
There are some charming scenes of the Sampietrini swinging on ropes around the Vatican basilica (the men who go up to clean the high up parts of the building).
There is an interesting section showing a batch of nuns sitting at 1940s typewriters composing letters to the thousands of people who asked the Vatican for help in finding relatives caught up in the war
And it is really lovely to hear Pius talking in a most informal way after his solemn Mass of thanksgiving for his 25 years in the episcopate, thanking the people of Rome.
However I cannot think that anyone who appeared in the film was aware that they were taking part in a film.
I believe that it was the Pope who chose the film's title.
On what basis?
As reported by the film's reviews, the title "Pastor Angelicus" was derived from Fr. Wion's Prophecy of the Popes. Wion's prediction for Pope Pius XII was 'Pastor angelicus."
The choice of those words for the title constitutes a tacit endorsement of Wion's predictions, and I do not believe that the Pope would have chosen them (or allowed them to be chosen) if he believed that those predictions were worthless.
I believe that it was the Pope who chose the film's title.
On what basis?
As reported by the film's reviews, the title "Pastor Angelicus" was derived from Fr. Wion's Prophecy of the Popes. Wion's prediction for Pope Pius XII was 'Pastor angelicus."
The choice of those words for the title constitutes a tacit endorsement of Wion's predictions, and I do not believe that the Pope would have chosen them (or allowed them to be chosen) if he believed that those predictions were worthless.
In other words, you have absolutely no reason to think that the pope himself chose the name of the film.
You are here! Now I ask you: what should we, as a group you are sharing these things with, do in our daily lives or in planning our future lives with this info you are giving us. Thank you.
I really can't answer this question for you.
Then I can’t figure out why you think we should waste our time paying attention to them.
This, to both posts.
(Where is that "banging my head against a wall" smiley when you need it??)
A Pretend:
Let's say you're going outside, and there's a salesman there. He takes a gadget out of his sales kit, tells you how wonderful it is, gives you a pamphlet explaining tests it's been put through, says the gadget is very important, and you should buy it right now for just $19.95 a month for six months. But he never tells you what it's for, nor why you should buy it.
You really want to get where you're going, and want to speed things along, so you ask "what's it for, again?" and try to gently move past. The salesman talks again about how it's passed many well-run tests by trustworthy people. But he still never tells you what it's for, nor why you should buy it.
You go on your way. You see him several times in the next days, and every conversation is a replay of the first!
You're disappointed. The gadget--whatever it's for--might be interesting. You like gadgets. Who knows? It might be something you really need. But, no matter how hard you try, you can't find out what the gadget is for, and how it might help you.
He won't even tell you why it's important to him, nor how it helps his life.
undead_rat: Are you going to buy that gadget?
Why or why not?
This is the situation many of us on this thread are in. I don't mean to be mean. But it's very frustrating.
Can you at least tell us one good thing that studying the prophecies, the Shroud, etc.* does for you? And one good thing knowing about it might do for us?
Comments
So... does the question of whether the visions are genuine or not become essentially irrelevant? Or does the Church tend to come down on one side or the other eventually?
Certainly the Church authorities will at times actively promote particular devotions, e.g. Lourdes, Jasna Gora and many others but no Catholic is obliged, either to believe in the apparitions, or 'miracles' nor to make a pilgrimage to such places.
Yes. That's something I recall reading in an official Catholic catechism somewhere.
Though personally, if I were a Catholic in good standing who thought that that Lourdes, Fatima etc. were all nonsense, I might find it a little disquieting that so many people in the church hierarchy seem to believe in them.
Well, when it comes to, say, Young Earth Creationism, were I a Christian, not only would I likely think that it was unneccesary for salvation, I would also be 100% convinced that it wasn't true.
And the difference between being certain that something is not true, and thinking that it's nonsense, is a pretty slight one, I would say.
To summarise:
Keep one eye on the Vatican City,
When the last Pope’s there, man it won’t be pretty,
Oh won’t you please think of Rome!
Yeah, yeah!
Watch the skies over Vatican City,
If they start to glow, better move your tushie,
But there’s no place to roam!
(apologies to Guns n Roses)
Ultimately we all have to make an act of faith in what we believe about Jesus Christ and how we accept the various doctrines which come from the historic creeds.
Once we classify anything as 'nonsense' we run the risk of classifying what some Christians see as the truths of the Gospel as, 'nonsense'
For example I don't see the stories of Lourdes as one gigantic con. I find great spiritual consolation in the story of Lourdes and everything which has happened there since 11th February 1858.
I think that each Christian has a set of accompaniments to their religious faith. It could be an author. It could be the example of another person. It could be the story of a particular place.
Often we are able to accept or want to accept a particular devotion because it fits in with our own personal history.
In the same way many Anglicans, particularly Anglo-Catholics, will have a particular devotion to our Lady of Walsingham. It is after all soo English but it is just another form of the (later) story of the 'Santa Casa di Loreto'
At one time all over (Catholic )Europe there were copies of the Holy House. Nowadays these have mainly been replaced by copies of the grotto of Lourdes.
There is a private school just outside of Edinburgh called Loretto. The ground on which it is built, just beside Musselburgh Racecourse, was where the Holy House stood.
After the Reformation it was destroyed and the stones used for the building of Musselburgh Town Hall.
Yes those Scots were extremely thoroughgoing weren't they... whereas Cromwell & co. would merely rip the images out of the cathedral, the Scots would get rid of the entire cathedral, as at St. Andrew's...
Wow. Thank you @Forthview both for your very thought-provoking post and also for the reference to the Holy House of Loreto. I have known about Loretto school for a long time but I never knew what it was named after. Having looked at the Wikipedia article I have to confess that to these Evo ears the "Holy House" makes the Shroud look like the last word in down-to-earth realism. But I have no wish to hinder anything that is genuinely bringing people closer to God as you say.
Okay, okay. Maybe I was a little hard on the Marian apparitions and their devotees. Mariology was one of the first things I reacted against when disengaging from Catholicism, and I guess it's always kind of lingered.
(Though I do find the political propaganda emanating from Our Lady Of Fatima, attested to by no less than Sister Lucia herself, pretty irredeemable.)
Do you really think that it was accidental that St. Pius X choose his Prophecy of the Popes motto for the title of his 1942 film? As reported in the newspapers of that time, the title was taken from the St. Malachy prophecy.
Sorry, meant to write Pius XII rather than Pius X.
Yes.
Now prove me wrong (the correction of your error is noted).
I think that religion has often got to be understood alongside political systems. You have to look at the Portugal of the period in the early 1910s as well as the time of the coming Russian Revolution and what was seen , certainly by a good number of Catholics, as an attempt to overthrow religion (not just to prohibit Marian devotions)
The 'Third Secret' which is said to have been written in the early 1940s by Sister Lucia at the insistent request of the local bishop and recalling what she thought the Virgin had said to her and sent from there to Rome with the request that it should not be opened till 1960. When the 'Secret' was revealed finally about 40 years after that it was acknowledged that Sister Lucia had seen things in the light of what was going on in the world at that time.
It is much the same with the film Pastor Angelicus which @undead rat said had been specially commissioned by Pius XII to indicate that he was indeed 'Pastor Angelicus'
It is almost impossible for Pius XII never to have heard of the prophecies of Malachy and not to have known that in these prophecies he was Pastor Angelicus. Whether he believed in the prophecies in the same way that @undead rat seems to, is highly debatable.
'Pastor Angelicus' seems to me to be a very noble title, prophecies apart.
I watched the whole of the film earlier today. It was made as a documentary, in 1942 right in the middle of WW2 and just two years after Pius became pope. I have absolutely no idea whether Pius ,himself, commissioned the film. The English blurb on the internet said ,
cast -Pius XII , and the film was in Italian but I doubt very much that Pius saw himself as a budding film star.
He was,however,the only person who talked really excerpts from some of his many early speeches, That is apart from one person who announced at an appropriate moment,
Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum. Habemus papam......... (already translated)
The film reminded me of a later Catholic propaganda film close to the end of WW2 frod
Defensor Civitatis (Defender of the City) documenting from a Catholic point of view all that Pius did to protect the City of Rome from destruction
As a non-RC, I do find some of the Marian stuff a bit underwhelming, or indeed incomprehensible, but I have a lot of time for Walsingham and the good work that the Shrine does (albeit preferring to visit at quieter off-peak periods!).
If it was accidental, that would be a major fulfillment of the Prophecy.
I have copies of the newspaper articles. I suppose that I have to look them up for you.
https://imdb.com/title/tt0035177/
No more immodest than some of the other Papal titles, surely?
Only the true messiah denies his divinity.
Over the last few months on British TV there has been a constant series of programmes about the Royal Family. Are we supposed to believe that the British queen personally considers these to be true biographies or autobiographies ?
Of the 10 the 5th worst is Pius IX (1846-1878),the 5rd worst is John XIII (1958-1963),but the very worst of all time is Pius XII (1939-1958).
According to the informative website, which doesn't mention Pastor angelicus,Pius was personally responsible for all of Hitler's atrocities suggesting many of them to Hitler.He was also responsible for the thousands of murders in Croatia, making him,. according to the website ,the 'most evil pope in world history'.
And much reading of them is a weariness to the spirit.
I am not the messiah.
I believe you.
I agree with what Bishop's Finger (very succinctly) and Forthview (at greater length) have said.
Damn, I never did get the hang of affirming consequents. Does that mean I'm just a very naughty boy?
I don't know much about his personality, but maybe he met it as a joke or sarcasm?
Or perhaps it was a joke between him and Sister Pascalina? They were close friends, and she took care of him throughout her life, and aided him in his work. (Seems to have been a platonic relationship.) She's said to have been "the power behind the throne", was smart, and very formidable. It's been said that if she'd been a man, she'd have been the next pope after Pius XII.
She was jokingly called "the Godmother", a female version of a Mafia boss.
I don't think the Vatican did irony. Affirming the consequent strikes again: 'I am in the footprints of the Fisherman, therefore I am "Pastor Angelicus"'. And the predicate is nonsense as well of course.
Pius XII played himself in this film, and, for that reason, I would call it autobiography.
It would seem so, but then many at that time knew where that phrase came and that would have made it more acceptable. Pius XII is not the only 20th century pope to have mentioned Wion's predictions. Prior to the start of WW I, Pope St. Pius X is reported to have mentioned the ominous "Religio depopulata" in his prediction of the great war.
"I feel sorry for my successor.. . .Religio depopulata is imminent."
https://crc-internet.org/further-information/archives-hir/n-141-july-2014/1914-2014-st-pius-x-the-burning-light-of-the-20th-century-died-hundred-years-ago.html
I really can't answer this question for you.
The predictions seem to be a signal that the world is in its last days, and that things, as bad as they seem now, are going to get worse.
It's our children that will have to endure what YHWH has in store. If they can be brought to understand the religious significance of events, that may make it easier for them to carry on. The Master did say, "When you see these things happening, hold your heads high, for your deliverance is close at hand."
This seems profoundly ungrateful. I would much rather live right now than at virtually any time in history. We should be thanking God for the incredible blessings that life currently holds for so many rather than moaning about how "bad" things are.
We should always be ready for the return of Jesus and remember that "our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed". Surely we should "keep watch, for you do not know the day or the hour". Jesus also said "Many false prophets will arise and deceive many people" and I reckon the "St. Malachy prophecies" are a prime example of that.
It's as if you are saying that the British Queen considers herself a film star doing an autobiography each time she carries out some ceremony in public.
The film was by the Centro Cattolico Cinematografico to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the episcopal consecration of Eugenio Pacelli. There are only three items of speech in it
1.the cardinal deacon announcing the choice of Eugenio Pacelli as pope
2. Pius XII giving his first blessing (both of these are in Latin)
3. 3 at the end of the film there are snippets from the 25th anniversary Mass celebrated by Pius and a short speech he gave in Italian to those present in St Peter's thanking them and reminding them of the close relationship between the citizens of Rome and the Holy See.
The pope is not acting any more than he would be on any other occasion.
There are some very rare shots of Pius walking in the Vatican gardens but that is the only thing which might be understood as anything about his private life.
The film makers tell us that the film was made 'per illustrare la missione che il papa va svolgendo come padre universale in un tragico periodo della storia umana'
(to illustrate the mission which the pope is carrying out as universal father in a tragic period for humanity)
I believe that it was the Pope who chose the film's title.
I cannot argue that he did not suggest the title.as everyone, but everyone in Rome would be aware that the 262nd successor of St Peter had been accorded , in these well known 'prophecies',the title of Pastor angelicus. I think it more likely that he agreed to the title rather than suggested it, but that is a minor point.
There are some charming scenes of the Sampietrini swinging on ropes around the Vatican basilica (the men who go up to clean the high up parts of the building).
There is an interesting section showing a batch of nuns sitting at 1940s typewriters composing letters to the thousands of people who asked the Vatican for help in finding relatives caught up in the war
And it is really lovely to hear Pius talking in a most informal way after his solemn Mass of thanksgiving for his 25 years in the episcopate, thanking the people of Rome.
However I cannot think that anyone who appeared in the film was aware that they were taking part in a film.
On what basis?
As reported by the film's reviews, the title "Pastor Angelicus" was derived from Fr. Wion's Prophecy of the Popes. Wion's prediction for Pope Pius XII was 'Pastor angelicus."
The choice of those words for the title constitutes a tacit endorsement of Wion's predictions, and I do not believe that the Pope would have chosen them (or allowed them to be chosen) if he believed that those predictions were worthless.
In other words, you have absolutely no reason to think that the pope himself chose the name of the film.
This, to both posts.
(Where is that "banging my head against a wall" smiley when you need it??)
A Pretend:
Let's say you're going outside, and there's a salesman there. He takes a gadget out of his sales kit, tells you how wonderful it is, gives you a pamphlet explaining tests it's been put through, says the gadget is very important, and you should buy it right now for just $19.95 a month for six months. But he never tells you what it's for, nor why you should buy it.
You really want to get where you're going, and want to speed things along, so you ask "what's it for, again?" and try to gently move past. The salesman talks again about how it's passed many well-run tests by trustworthy people. But he still never tells you what it's for, nor why you should buy it.
You go on your way. You see him several times in the next days, and every conversation is a replay of the first!
You're disappointed. The gadget--whatever it's for--might be interesting. You like gadgets. Who knows? It might be something you really need. But, no matter how hard you try, you can't find out what the gadget is for, and how it might help you.
He won't even tell you why it's important to him, nor how it helps his life.
undead_rat: Are you going to buy that gadget?
Why or why not?
This is the situation many of us on this thread are in. I don't mean to be mean. But it's very frustrating.
Can you at least tell us one good thing that studying the prophecies, the Shroud, etc.* does for you? And one good thing knowing about it might do for us?
Thanks.
*Edited, because I forgot which thread this is!