Yeshu ben Pantera

undead_ratundead_rat Shipmate
I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.
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Comments

  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    I must have missed the memo that boring posts now belong in Hell.
  • Dear H&A, I am pleading. Please please close this unnecessary spin-off from a wearisome and winding-down thread.
  • Oooh, I don't know. It has a certain novelty value.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    According to every bible I have read, his name is Jesus

  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    So you're honoring Jesus by referring to him as "May his name be forgotten, bastard son of a Roman soldier". Interesting!
  • Darn. I thought this thread was going to be about the heavy metal band, Pantera. I wasn't sure where Jesus fit in but I was interested...
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Indeed "yeshu" in Hebrew is: "may his name and his memory be erased" which is used in other contexts too. But most people speak the whole phrase. The abbreviation is usually only found in printed form. It is actually very strong language, almost a formal curse, and not used often.
    The Messianic Jews are very keen on "Yeshua"
    99% people who'd say "Yeshu" to me though would just be using the word, rather than the idea. Many would say "Jesus" (in English).
  • I notice that the excuses have evolved as the brain-dead rodent has had the origins of the name pointed out.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ah, he's saved me the bother of starting a thread.

    @undead_rat - virtually your entire output on this forum, bar some dribbling about boats and school buses, has been utter bullshit. It's right up there with Antivaxxers, YEC, QAnon, Covid 5G Bill Gates Nanabots conpiracists and every other form of complete and utter bollocks that pollutes the human psyche.

    It's abundantly clear that no-one here thinks your poorly thought through credulous crap is anything other than, well, poorly thought through credulous crap.

    Suggestion - take a leaf out of the book of other purveyors of baseless fuckwittery like Erich von Daniken and David Icke and so on and write a book or make YouTube videos for us to laugh at.

    On second thoughts, don't, because credulous idiots out there might take notice of it. How about just shutting up?

    Or developing some critical faculties?
  • I always pronounce his name hey-sous, because I watched Hill Street Blues.

    That is when I am not calling him "You bastard rape child of a teenager".
  • Wait - I thought it was Brian, bastard son of a Roman soldier and the virgin (Mandy)?

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Wait - I thought it was Brian, bastard son of a Roman soldier and the virgin (Mandy)?

    AFF

    Stable next door.
  • undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    I like this one, he's funny. Can we keep him?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 4
    His posts certainly have a degree of entertainment value.

    Yes, you can keep him, as long as you promise faithfully to look after him, feed him, clean his cage etc. etc..
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I take your point about people who swear - though none of us need to. St James tells us to guard our tongues.

    Nevertheless, Jesus is what Jesus's name is in English. When speaking or writing in English, therefore, that is the name to use. Calling him a version of his name in another language whether koiné Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, Cree or whatever when writing or speaking in English is both ostentatious and wrong. It's the same as calling Vienna, Wien or Philip II of Spain, Felipe unless you are speaking or writing in German or Spanish.

    I also recognise that as a Unitarian, you presumably do not believe he is the incarnate Son of God. However, I've never heard of Unitarians insisting on calling Jesus anything other than Jesus. I'm afraid from a Unitarian I'm not entirely persuaded by your claim that for you ben Pantera implies son of Hashem. That seems inconsistent with Unitarian beliefs.

  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    edited February 4
    Enoch wrote: »
    When speaking or writing in English, therefore, that is the name to use. Calling him a version of his name in another language whether koiné Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, Cree or whatever when writing or speaking in English is both ostentatious and wrong. It's the same as calling Vienna, Wien or Philip II of Spain, Felipe unless you are speaking or writing in German or Spanish.

    Or calling John the Terrible "Ivan" or Charles the First "Charlemagne." ;)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 4
    Enoch wrote: »
    I also recognise that as a Unitarian, you presumably do not believe he is the incarnate Son of God. However, I've never heard of Unitarians insisting on calling Jesus anything other than Jesus. I'm afraid from a Unitarian I'm not entirely persuaded by your claim that for you ben Pantera implies son of Hashem. That seems inconsistent with Unitarian beliefs.

    If he's a Unitarian in the sense of the word as used today by Unitarian Universalists in North America and the Unitarians And Free Christians in the UK, he could theoretically believe that Jesus is the "incarnate Son of God", and could even go so far as to call himself a Trinitarian. Because members of those denominations are not required to accept or reject any particular Christology.

    But it would be rare for someone who believes to that degree in the divine nature of Jesus to be a member of a UU or UFCC church. And if they held the sort of exclusivist beliefs that normally follow from such a position, it would likely be very difficult for them to function in such a congregation.


  • undead_rat has not, IIRC, told us whether or not he's actually a member of a congregation, and, TBH, I take anything he says about himself with a pinch of salt...not accusing him of Hideous Fibs, but just sayin'...
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    undead_rat has not, IIRC, told us whether or not he's actually a member of a congregation, and, TBH, I take anything he says about himself with a pinch of salt...not accusing him of Hideous Fibs, but just sayin'...

    Indeed, I found it somewhat surprising that he identified as Unitarian. Belief in the the unique divinity of Jesus is pretty rare among UUs, and belief in quasi-Catholic historical fortune telling even rarer, I should think.

    But I don't think there'd anything about his beliefs that would a priori exclude him from UUism. As opposed to, say, if he claimed that Jesus only came to save white people and everyone else will burn in Hell, which I think would be a pretty clear violation of the Seven Principles.

    I WILL say that if the rat is, in fact, Unitarian, I would doubt he's having much success in finding fellow congregants willing to pursue his preferred line of discussion.
  • MargaretMargaret Shipmate
    Unitarians, in Britain at least, certainly hold a wide variety of views about Jesus, although I have to admit I was surprised to discover that undead_rat was a Unitarian too! But I've met quite a few enjoyably eccentric Unitarians, and it's a faith which encourages people to make their own decisions about what they believe, so perhaps it isn't as odd as it sounds. I think it might be interesting to hear more about his understanding of Jesus.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Margaret wrote: »
    Unitarians, in Britain at least, certainly hold a wide variety of views about Jesus, although I have to admit I was surprised to discover that undead_rat was a Unitarian too! But I've met quite a few enjoyably eccentric Unitarians, and it's a faith which encourages people to make their own decisions about what they believe, so perhaps it isn't as odd as it sounds. I think it might be interesting to hear more about his understanding of Jesus.

    You're more generous than I. I would presume it's just more crap.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 4
    Very sincere crap, no doubt, and enny fule kno what sort of pumpkin patch The Great Pumpkin deigns to appear in at Hallowe'en...
    :innocent:

    Linky, for those who are mystified:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin
  • You are a postgraduate at a conference, where an elderly professor has just given an entertaining and well-received presentation. The prof - let’s call him Chris - is taking questions. Some of his friends address him as such, but you think Dr Brown will work better if you get to ask your question. A young guy sitting next to you leans over and says ‘yes, I’ve read all his work, he’s a great man, you know in college his room mates called him Topher’. He then stands up and uses that address. The prof looks over and smiles - somewhat wearily.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Very sincere crap, no doubt, and enny fule kno what sort of pumpkin patch The Great Pumpkin deigns to appear in at Hallowe'en...
    :innocent:

    Linky, for those who are mystified:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin

    I hate to bring politics into this, but do yourself a favour and google "It's The Great Storm, Charlie Brown."
  • stetson wrote: »
    Very sincere crap, no doubt, and enny fule kno what sort of pumpkin patch The Great Pumpkin deigns to appear in at Hallowe'en...
    :innocent:

    Linky, for those who are mystified:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin

    I hate to bring politics into this, but do yourself a favour and google "It's The Great Storm, Charlie Brown."

    That's fabulous.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    I take your point about people who swear - though none of us need to. St James tells us to guard our tongues.
    But some need to swear to demonstrate that the are grown ups

  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    When speaking or writing in English, therefore, that is the name to use. Calling him a version of his name in another language whether koiné Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, Cree or whatever when writing or speaking in English is both ostentatious and wrong. It's the same as calling Vienna, Wien or Philip II of Spain, Felipe unless you are speaking or writing in German or Spanish.

    Or calling John the Terrible "Ivan" or Charles the First "Charlemagne." ;)

    Enoch is wrong that there is some kind of rule about this- I have two biographies of Pompey, neither of which are entitled 'Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus' but my sole biography of Marcus Aurelius is not entitled 'Mark Aurey' and allusions to King Tut are a sure and certain sign of bogosity.

    OTOH, he is entirely correct that referring to Jesus as Yeshu ben Panthera is ostentatious and wrong. I would refer to him as JC, but that runs the risk of large numbers of Corbynites claiming that one is taking the name of the Comic Messiah in vain.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Very sincere crap, no doubt, and enny fule kno what sort of pumpkin patch The Great Pumpkin deigns to appear in at Hallowe'en...
    :innocent:

    Linky, for those who are mystified:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin

    I hate to bring politics into this, but do yourself a favour and google "It's The Great Storm, Charlie Brown."

    That's fabulous.

    Yeah, he really does a good job of capturing the feel and rythym of the original strip.
  • undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    I like this one, he's funny. Can we keep him?

    I'm sure I can find a Habitrail for you somewhere.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 4
    Telford wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I take your point about people who swear - though none of us need to. St James tells us to guard our tongues.
    But some need to swear to demonstrate that the are grown ups

    Or that they are pissed off with someone's shit and decided life's too short to express anything but complete exasperation.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I like this one, he's funny. Can we keep him?

    I'm sure I can find a Habitrail for you somewhere.

    Sure, but will Marvin feed him and clean out the cage? Or will we get stuck doing that?
  • Whoever gets to keep him will have to take him out for walkies, too - AND pick up his poo...
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I take your point about people who swear - though none of us need to. St James tells us to guard our tongues.
    But some need to swear to demonstrate that the are grown ups

    Or that they are pissed off with someone's shit and decided life's too short to express anything but complete exasperation.

    Do you have anyone in particular in mind?
    :innocent:

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Whoever gets to keep him will have to take him out for walkies, too - AND pick up his poo...
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I take your point about people who swear - though none of us need to. St James tells us to guard our tongues.
    But some need to swear to demonstrate that the are grown ups

    Or that they are pissed off with someone's shit and decided life's too short to express anything but complete exasperation.

    Do you have anyone in particular in mind?
    :innocent:
    Probably you.
  • Possibly.

    Or possibly you.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I have two in mind actually, one on this thread who isn't @Bishops Finger
  • Why, thank you, kind Sir!
    :wink:

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Why, thank you, kind Sir!
    :wink:

    Well it was logically possible that the other one was you, but it wasn't.

    Unless your sock puppet started this thread.
  • :lol:

    Not Guilty, m'Lud...
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    :lol:

    Not Guilty, m'Lud...
    Swear in a jury.

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    Very interesting, dear. Don't forget to put the bins out.
  • LOL.
  • So YHWH (God) is a Panther?

    Who knew?

    (And what about the Great Pumpkin? Much more sincere, I should have thought.)
  • undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive. (Then again, I could just be asking for some cheddar flavored snack crackers.) Aside from those issues, "Jesus" is a poor rendering of the Aramaic "Yeshua," which is commonly used by Jews who have accepted Him as Messiah.

    Ancient Rabbis who opposed Yeshua referred to Him as Yeshu ben Pantera as a way of suggesting that His true father was a Roman Soldier named Pantera. The shortening of "Yeshua" to "Yeshu" was done to create an anacronym that meant: "May his name be forgotten."

    In my opinion, if we use the name of "Jesus" for the Messiah, we have, in fact, forgotten His true name of "Yeshu," and the ancient Rabbis have achieved their aim.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.

    I know that some of you are put off by that suffix. I view "ben Pantera," --the son of the Panther-- to be a reference to YHWH, despite the fact that the Rabbis did not intend it that way.

    I like this one, he's funny. Can we keep him?

    So long as the food and vet bills are kept low and you pick up after him.
  • Yes, that's all very well, but where does one dispose safely of toxic shite?
    :grimace:
  • Yes, that's all very well, but where does one dispose safely of toxic shite?
    :grimace:

    I believe the Irish Sea is the traditional location.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 5
    Ah, but which side of the mid-sea Border?
  • Toxic shite requires 41 customs declarations, rules of origin descriptions, and veterinary inspection reports.
  • Curses! Another Brexshit cock-up...(IYSWIM).
  • When this discussion started I sat back waiting for someone to ask what sports car Jesus would have driven. Still waiting, so here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso_Pantera
  • undead_rat wrote: »
    I have problems with the name most commonly used for the Jewish Messiah which is "Jesus."
    I am not sure whether I am praying or swearing when I say that name as it is so often used as a swear-word or expletive.
    Well, it seems like the bigger problem might be you using words without knowing what you mean by them.

    I prefer "Yeshu" over "Yeshua" because some sources relate that "Yeshu" was the Galilean version of "Yehoshua." Adding "ben Pantera" as a suffix makes it clear to those ancient Rabbis who we are talking about and reminds them that we have not forgotten His name.
    And how in the world do we remind or make anything clear to those ancient rabbis, who have been dead for quite some time?

This discussion has been closed.