Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Ack so they don't in Britspeak? I never thought of that.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Ack so they don't in Britspeak? I never thought of that.

    Not outside Scotland (and possibly N Ireland). One syllable vs two
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'd say both Scots and Irish would say 'girl' and 'squirr-el'. Definitely not near homophones.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited February 6
    King William II, called William Rufus on account of his red hair, was killed in hunting accident by a Walter Tirrell, hence the rhyme:

    Nobody knows if the fellow called Tirrell
    Was trying to shoot at the King or a squirrel. (Eleanor Farjeon)
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Piglet wrote: »
    Or as it's paraphrased in graffiti in pub lavatories: "a light to lighten the genitals".

    I'll fetch my own coat.

    I have naturally enlarged testicles. Every so often the doctor wants to check to see if there is not an anomaly. Guess how he does he does it.

    Too much information 😳
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    ... where you mangle a song by replacing the word "girl" by the word "squirrel". It occurred to me that maybe these words rhyme in American English. Would that be correct?

    Yes, that's correct.

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    It really depends. I say squirr-el.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I was looking at the thread in the Circus, where you mangle a song by replacing the word "girl" by the word "squirrel". It occurred to me that maybe these words rhyme in American English. Would that be correct?

    Took me a while to realise they can rhyme in an American accent - it was from finding a song from Guys and Dolls, where I realised that, in Adelaide's accent, the song would still rhyme when girl was replaced by squirrel. Then I realised that was probably the point of the game, rather than an amusing coincidence!

  • fineline wrote: »
    I was looking at the thread in the Circus, where you mangle a song by replacing the word "girl" by the word "squirrel". It occurred to me that maybe these words rhyme in American English. Would that be correct?

    Took me a while to realise they can rhyme in an American accent - it was from finding a song from Guys and Dolls, where I realised that, in Adelaide's accent, the song would still rhyme when girl was replaced by squirrel. Then I realised that was probably the point of the game, rather than an amusing coincidence!
    For most Americans, it actually works the other way around. As I normally hear it, “squirrel” is one syllable and is pronounced skwirl.

  • I'd call it one-and-a-half syllables--it's got that glide thingy going on at the end (someone more erudite can give it the proper name). Basically a schwa in the second syllable.
  • I'd call it one-and-a-half syllables--it's got that glide thingy going on at the end (someone more erudite can give it the proper name). Basically a schwa in the second syllable.
    Maybe in some parts of the US. Here, not so much—no more of a schwa before the l than in girl or swirl.

  • Yes, exactly. I pronounce those as syllable-and-a-half, as I do "world" as well.

    I'm from California originally (LA basin).
  • Hmmm. FWIW, I just looked up “swirl,” “girl” and “squirrel” in the dictionary, and I got these for pronunciations:

    ˈswər(-ə)l
    ˈgər(-ə)l
    ˈskwər(-ə)l

    So an “optional” schwa in each.

    BTW, for “squirrel,” it gives as a chiefly British pronunciation: ˈskwir-əl

  • Jonah--

    IME, "girl" and "squirrel" are close in US pronunciation, with some regional variance. "Squirrel" is generally pronounced as two syllables, though, so doesn't rhyme with "girl" *exactly*.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 7
    For most UK speakers, girl has the same vowel as 'air', and the r is not pronounced in either. It's not, for us, remotely like squirrel, where the first vowel is like the one is the one in "is", and only the second is a schwa.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Hmm. This UK speaker would say that ‘air’ has the same vowel as ‘care’ or ‘there’, whereas ‘girl’ has the same vowel as ‘curl’ or ‘twirl’.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 7
    BroJames wrote: »
    Hmm. This UK speaker would say that ‘air’ has the same vowel as ‘care’ or ‘there’, whereas ‘girl’ has the same vowel as ‘curl’ or ‘twirl’.

    Always been "gairl" for me (same vowel as "care") to the extent I've always considered it one of those words with a weird spelling for its sound. I'm familiar with the "gurl" pronunciation but don't use it myself.

    I presume the 'air' variation is where the upper class "gels" comes from.
  • Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
    edited February 7
    Yes here in the UK squirrel definitely has 2 syllables, the first one is like the sound in squid (without the d of course) and the second has a schwa vowel and begins with a non rhotic 'r'. Whereas girl is a single syllable, rhymes with curl (and neither of these words has any r sounded at all). Very different to squirrel.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Nigel Molesworth (of 'Down with Skool') spells it 'gurl'. Just saying.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    I rhyme girl and curl. I think I do pronounce the r: it's just that as I have a non-rhotic accent you can't tell.
  • *stunned*
  • And in the vernacular in these parts “girl” is gir-ul, so not a million miles from squirr-ul.
  • Then we could get into 'film' vs 'fil-um'. I first heard 'fil-um' from a friend in Inverness, and not again until I was in Texas.
  • Then we could get into 'film' vs 'fil-um'. I first heard 'fil-um' from a friend in Inverness, and not again until I was in Texas.

    Gaelic doesn't run consonants together, which is why you tend to get those epenthetic vowels in Scots and Irish accents. Don't know whether Welsh does this, but I'm sure one of our Welsh speakers will enlighten us. Why do Texans do it?
  • Texans believe in never using one syllable where three can be used.

    (unfair stereotype :wink: )

    Actually, I don't know. But I could listen to it all day. It's rather beautiful.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 7
    Then we could get into 'film' vs 'fil-um'. I first heard 'fil-um' from a friend in Inverness, and not again until I was in Texas.

    Gaelic doesn't run consonants together, which is why you tend to get those epenthetic vowels in Scots and Irish accents. Don't know whether Welsh does this, but I'm sure one of our Welsh speakers will enlighten us. Why do Texans do it?

    Welsh does. Cefn - back, ysbyty - hospital, but notice it doesn't (or didn't) like starting words with some clusters so stuck a y (pronounced as a schwa) at the front. With virtually every Welsh speaker in Wales (as opposed to Patagonia) over the age of around 6 bilingual with English, those clusters no longer represent a problem and we hear stafell for ystafell (room), sgwennu for ysgrifennu (to write) and so on. However, pobl (people) and cwbl (all) are often pronounced, and sometimes even written, as pobol and cwbwl.
  • Back on squirrels, when somebody posted a link to this a few months ago, I didn't really think about the pronunciation beyond the fact that the singer (of course) had an American accent (I don't know enough to say what kind of American accent; Wikipedia says that he comes from Georgia). In the light of the discussion here, I wondered whether I would have realised what the song was about if I had just heard it without seeing the title or the video. Listening to it again, I notice that he seems to pronounce the word sometimes as a single syllable almost rhyming with the way Nigel Molesworth and I pronounce 'girl' (but with the 'r' somewhat noticeable), and sometimes as two syllables much more like the UK pronunciation; compare 0.33 and 0.48 in the video. In context the former doesn't sound as odd to me as the statement that 'squirrel' and 'girl' rhyme in the USA does in isolation.

    (Nigel Molesworth, for anyone unfamiliar with him)
  • Texans believe in never using one syllable where three can be used.

    (unfair stereotype :wink: )

    Actually, I don't know. But I could listen to it all day. It's rather beautiful.

    My friend Rich was on a tour of the Holy Land many decades ago, and one of the people on the tour was an older woman from Texas (she seemed older to teenage Richie — probably no older than we are now). He remarked to her how he liked the way she said Baaaaaaahubull. She asked well honey how do you say it? "BY-bəl" he answered. She replied, "It don't hardly sound like the Word of God like that!"
  • Less piously, I was always impressed by the way a Texan colleague could effortlessly say "Sh-i-i-t" in three syllables when the rest of us could only manage one.
  • I can do two! But then, I'm in Missouri.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Less piously, I was always impressed by the way a Texan colleague could effortlessly say "Sh-i-i-t" in three syllables when the rest of us could only manage one.

    When you hear it that way, it means you stepped in some pretty deep doodoo.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    Hmm. This UK speaker would say that ‘air’ has the same vowel as ‘care’ or ‘there’, whereas ‘girl’ has the same vowel as ‘curl’ or ‘twirl’.

    Same here in Australia.

    I was this many days old when I discovered that 'squirrel' could also rhyme with 'girl'. Never occurred to me.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    Hmm. This UK speaker would say that ‘air’ has the same vowel as ‘care’ or ‘there’, whereas ‘girl’ has the same vowel as ‘curl’ or ‘twirl’.

    All those are true for this Californian. But for me, "girl", "curl", and "twirl" also rhyme with "squirrel". It's just one of those things.

    I've been having fun with the "Go Away, Little Squirrel" thread. :wink:
  • While we're adding syllable's may I be allowed to digress to antipodean accents and note that I have come across both Kiwis and Aussies who say words like "known" and "grown' in two syllables - knowen and growen.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    While we're adding syllable's may I be allowed to digress to antipodean accents and note that I have come across both Kiwis and Aussies who say words like "known" and "grown' in two syllables - knowen and growen.

    I dislike this quirk of pronunciation which in my observation occurs in Queenslanders rather than in other states of Oz. They also tend to pronounce flower as two distinct syllables (flow-wer). Many people think Australians all sound alike, but as a linguist I can assure them that there are distinct regional differences.
  • Yikes! I pronounce "flower" as two syllables, along with everybody else I know. Also all the similarly spelt words.
  • Yikes! I pronounce "flower" as two syllables, along with everybody else I know. Also all the similarly spelt words.

    How else could one possibly pronounce it???
  • AthrawesAthrawes Shipmate
    Yes, I have lived in all States except Tasmania, and I’ve only heard it pronounced with 2 syllables. How do you think it should be pronounced?
  • Yikes! I pronounce "flower" as two syllables, along with everybody else I know. Also all the similarly spelt words.

    How else could one possibly pronounce it???

    Same as flour.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    But that has two syllables too!
  • Hour too?
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited February 9
    Yeah, afraid so. At least 1 and 2/3.

    Oh, and I remembered the word I was looking for, for those random not-quite syllables. "Glides."
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    Yikes! I pronounce "flower" as two syllables, along with everybody else I know. Also all the similarly spelt words.

    How else could one possibly pronounce it???

    Everyone I know in Tasmania says flour, rather than flow- wer which places emphasis on the second syllable
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I can't recall hearing flower as 2 syllables, just as flour.
    While we're adding syllable's may I be allowed to digress to antipodean accents and note that I have come across both Kiwis and Aussies who say words like "known" and "grown' in two syllables - knowen and growen.

    Can't remember ever hearing either of those.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 9
    Flour/Flower contain a diphthong which depending on how you perceive the sound might sound like two syllables as there's movement within the sound. If you did emphasise the bilabial at the end of 'ou' and produced a distinct schwa following it then you would reach a sound that is effectively disyllabic.

    Some UK dialects tend to flatten this sound to "ah" - hence cockney "Lavvly Flahs". Other diphthongs too - my Bedfordshire mother (family with London roots so it could be either) would refer to electrical wahs and gas fahs.
  • IME U English used to pronounce flowers "flars"; cockney is more "flaas".
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Flour/Flower contain a diphthong which depending on how you perceive the sound might sound like two syllables as there's movement within the sound.
    Depending on accent or pronunciation, flower, flour, shower, hour and our contain triphthongs, the vowel sequence being ah-oo-uh(r). Trained singers are taught to be conscious of this, as dealing appropriately with diphthongs and triphthongs has a effect on how the words sound and are understood when sung.

  • In RP, 'flowers has two syllables.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited February 10
    rhubarb wrote: »
    Everyone I know in Tasmania says flour, rather than flow- wer which places emphasis on the second syllable

    I've never met anyone who placed the emphasis on the second syllable in flower.

    In standard English, the difference between a flower and a flow-wer (probably the punchline of a joke about rivers) is the pronunciation of the first vowel. It's an /aʊ/ diphthong in the plant, and an /oʊ/ diphthong in the river. But the emphasis is the same, and in neither case is the trailing r rhotic.

    The single-syllable people are, I think, pronouncing flower (and/or flour) with a triphthong.

    (Do people think flour and flower are homophones?)
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    (Do people think flour and flower are homophones?)

    They are in the part of southern England I grew up in.
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