The Perfect Planet

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Comments

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited February 8
    We need then to ask what "perfect" means. In the OT, if I recall, the corresponding word means something like "complete".
  • caroline444caroline444 Shipmate
    edited February 8
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    I don't think it's a desire for stasis that makes the world 'imperfect'. It just is what it is.... At the risk of inviting a ton of bricks on my head, I don't think anyone, even God, can go against the laws of nature. Certainly not when they are doing anything as massive as creating a world. If nature is sometimes cruel, surely it is because the world and life could not have been otherwise.

    I agree. This is how the universe is supposed to run: “Wild” and “Down”. Without any external intervention everything will end up at Absolute Zero (as intended).

    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Presumably "Absolute Zero" means the end of the world? That sounds plausible, but we would I think be talking about something happening thousands of years hence, like if the sun gets too hot for the world to continue with life of any sort. Meanwhile mankind may well face extinction a lot earlier.
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    The good news IMHO is that God isn’t stuck in here with us and is able to reforge/remake the whole thing long before the stars go out. The even better news is that God does not have a dispassionate and disinterested Dr Manhattan-like personality.

    God can go against the laws of nature. They are up for reforging along with everything else. And if God exists both within and without our present spacetime then the miraculous can happen, anywhere and any-when. The problem is that while I know this, I do not believe it as I should.

    I'm afraid I do not see this. But maybe that will change? Meanwhile I can visualise death involving a joining together with a greater spirit, but I don't see God reforging the world miraculously. "The problem is that while I know this, I do not believe it as I should." Perhaps I should hope for greater faith for both of us.
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Faith isn’t supposed to be pick and choose. Truth is, I am comfortable trusting God for my own salvation. A more useful faith that can move “mountains” is a very disturbing prospect for everyone; most of all me.

    "Faith isn't supposed to be pick and choose" It is though, on such a massive basis. Surely that is why we have so many different churches, and so many splits. On the other hand, I also feel very concerned about this sometimes, and I feel quite envious of people whose faith is very straightforward.

  • caroline444caroline444 Shipmate
    edited February 8
    If nature is sometimes cruel, surely it is because the world and life could not have been otherwise.

    Isn't that simply a rephrasing of the idea that this is "the best of all possible worlds"? It's one I find simply doesn't pass the smell test.

    Perhaps it's "the best of all possible worlds" within the constraints God made on himself: a balanced, functioning ecosystem made to be the setting for flawed (ie sinful) creatures with free will to choose to do the least harm and live simply - or to slash & burn, pollute and generally selfishly bugger things up for short term gains and an easier life.

    Might it be that God just lit the fuse for intelligence? That in itself would have been the most extraordinary thing (beyond the emergence of the universe.) Goodness and evil might have been the way things evolved.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited February 8
    (In response to Bill Noble, upthread.)

    No, what we object to is suffering. No creature should go through that. I said more about that upthread a bit.

    Fixed dodgy link. BroJames, Purgatory Host
  • Bill_NobleBill_Noble Shipmate
    edited February 8
    Golden Key wrote: »
    (In response to Bill Noble, upthread.)

    No, what we object to is suffering. No creature should go through that. I said more about that upthread a bit.
    Fixed dodgy link. BroJames, Purgatory Host

    Indeed, i object to suffering verbally and in writing. At length. Because it’s easier.

    I claim to believe in Christ, but I don’t believe sufficiently for miracles to alleviate suffering the way He did.

    I claim to follow Christ but I don’t do enough to alleviate suffering practically.

    I am shockingly bad at this.

    Clearly I should just mix in a philosophy that either cuts me a lot more slack or turns down all the disturbing noise coming from the outside world.

    How about you?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited February 8
    Bill Noble--

    I think maybe we're getting our wires crossed a bit. I didn't ask for humans to be cut more slack. I didn't say to ignore what's going on in the world--just the opposite.

    Shipmates were discussing how the world is, and why, and whether a Creator is involved, and why they might have made things the way they are.

    My complaints were about God. Presuming she exists, is good and loving, and cares about all of her creation, as the Bible seems to indicate...if she built suffering and horror into the system, what the heck was she thinking??? And if not, was there some kind of Fall?

    ETA: I'm not saying things should be better just for humans, or that we're the center / peak of everything. IMVHO, there should be no suffering or horror for any creature.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Bill Noble--

    I think maybe we're getting our wires crossed a bit. I didn't ask for humans to be cut more slack. I didn't say to ignore what's going on in the world--just the opposite.

    Shipmates were discussing how the world is, and why, and whether a Creator is involved, and why they might have made things the way they are.

    My complaints were about God. Presuming she exists, is good and loving, and cares about all of her creation, as the Bible seems to indicate...if she built suffering and horror into the system, what the heck was she thinking??? And if not, was there some kind of Fall?

    ETA: I'm not saying things should be better just for humans, or that we're the center / peak of everything. IMVHO, there should be no suffering or horror for any creature.

    I agree. I would much prefer a perfect world where every day could be a day of rest (but obviously with normal alcohol licensing).

    And I often catch myself just being overwhelmed by news events and I feel that I should be doing more with this faith that I seem to have.

    But I realise that there is a temptation to try to fight fire with fire: that Big World Problems need Big Church Solutions; more politics and lobbying under a different banner. Which is, now you point it out, a masculine outworking of faith. Just another attempt at Muscular Christianity.

    Thank you for reminding me that that things that matter do not rock town, city, nation or world (Matthew 10:42)
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Bill Noble--



    My complaints were about God. Presuming she exists, is good and loving, and cares about all of her creation, as the Bible seems to indicate...if she built suffering and horror into the system, what the heck was she thinking??? And if not, was there some kind of Fall?

    ETA: I'm not saying things should be better just for humans, or that we're the center / peak of everything. IMVHO, there should be no suffering or horror for any creature.

    I'm not sure what it means, but there is a passage in the Bible which talks about an ideal future, when eg. the lion will lie down with the lamb. So there is certainly a wish for better times to come.
  • KwesiKwesi Shipmate
    Chorister: I'm not sure what it means, but there is a passage in the Bible which talks about an ideal future, when eg. the lion will lie down with the lamb.

    Perhaps, yet again, we need to raise Blake's question regarding the Tyger: "Did he who made the Lamb make thee?"

  • "He who made kittens put snakes in the grass."
    —Ian Anderson
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    To some extent this thread seems to be becoming a question about why there are carnivores.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    As we know, prey populations become unhealthy without predators.

    Maybe that’s why the human population has become such a problem - no predators.
  • Certainly in the West, where health and safety, and healthcare, has been applied to the nth degree - we are (almost) invincible.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    As we know, prey populations become unhealthy without predators.

    Maybe that’s why the human population has become such a problem - no predators.

    We are our own predator.
  • Yes, good point, we are enemies to ourselves.
  • caroline444caroline444 Shipmate
    edited February 12
    Yes.... :cry:
  • Oh, we still are prey to other predators. Some viruses and bacteria, example. (At the end of the film "The War Of The Worlds", when the invading space aliens are dying, there's a voiceover to the effect that "It was the humble microbe, the smallest thing God put on this earth, that saved the day".)

    Wild animals attack and kill humans--sometimes, domestic animals do, too.

    Our species' cluelessness, ignorance, and arrogance are probably our worst enemies, but they're not the only ones.
  • That's why I mentioned Coronavirus in the OP, far more likely to kill everyone off than a few lions. Fortunately, we also have developed the understanding and technology to develop vaccines.
  • Many hope that the planet will be better in balance once we have left it...

    Annie Lennox and choir singing Dido's Lament

    “When it comes to climate catastrophe,” Lennox says. “We are on the edge of abyss. I really believe we don’t have much time left to make an effective change.”

    Lennox continues: “We are looking at a civilisation on the downwards side. This is the truth of this matter. It’s staring us in the face and we are not paying any significant attention – continuing on as if it doesn’t exist. I see ‘Dido’s Lament’ as a lament for our dying planet.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DFaIovZxc&feature=emb_logo
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