Messianic Judaism

stetsonstetson Shipmate
edited February 14 in Purgatory
Continued from here.

And I'll start off by responding to this post from Bishops Finger, who in response to my question about the nature of Jewish-focused evangelist organizations in the UK, posted a link to one such group.

Looking over that site, it seems that they DO in fact, use the term "Messianic believers" to refer to Jewish converts. However, it's not clear to me if their message is just something like "Jesus is the Messiah for the whole world, so Jews should embrace him just like everybody else", or if it's more like "Jesus first came to be the Messiah for the Jewish people, but they rejected him, so now they all need to convert in order to get the end-times up and running".

The latter being the basic focus of almost any North American group calling itself "Messianic Judaism" that I have encountered, as well as pre-mil evangelicals overall.

Bishops Finger wrote:
There's a big difference between sharing God's love for Jews and Gentiles, and trying to convert all the Jews before they go to Hell, IYSWIM!

I do indeed SWYM!

Pre-mil attitudes toward Jews are sort of like the guy who has is infatuated with a woman, and worships her on a pedestal when he thinks she might want to date him, but beats the living daylights out of her when she decides to go out with someone else. Sorry for the unpleasant metaphor, but the psychological processes really do seem similar.

Of course, it's possible to believe that Jews, along with all the other unsaved, will go to Hell for not accepting Jesus, without thinking that they have a special obligation to accept Jesus.
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Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Is CMJ UK Zionist?

    This seems somewhat tilted toward the Israeli position, but in the typical manner of mainstream centrist politics(eg. we are assured that it is possible for Israel to "do wrong", while Palestinian extremists are condemned for "terrorism") rather than that of the rabidly Likudite Christian right.

    I'll also observe that phrasing like "God still has a purpose for the Jewish people, namely, to bring them to faith in Jesus as their Messiah" are possibly hedging on whether or not Jesus is supposed to be the Messiah to the Jewish people in a way that is different from his being the Messiah to everyone else.
  • From the other thread
    stetson wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    The point is, I don't think that a theologically informed person could listen to a basic exposition of Messianic Judaism, capital lettered, and come away thinking that it just means the same thing as "Jews who have converted to Christianity".
    Perhaps after 20+ years of discussions here on just about every form of Christianity there is, and a shit load of other interactions with people of a wide range of Christian traditions, has left me theologically uniformed. But before the posts here on the last couple of days every single time I have read anything about (capitalised) Messianic Jews what I've read has been "Jews who have converted to Christianity and wanted to maintain significant parts of Jewish culture in their life and worship". The posts in the last few days are the first time I have ever come across a suggestion that Messianic Jews as a group believe that their mission is to convert all Jews to fulfil prophecy - of course, there probably are some individuals sub-groups within the group who do, but that's not the same as it being something believed by all or even most.

    Why hasn't this formed part of previous discussions of Messianic Jews?

    What previous discussions of Messianic Jews? I cannot think of any.
    I can't locate any archived threads, and can't recall the details of when Messianic Jews have come up in discussion before. But, I know I've read stuff about them before, and by far the most likely reason for that is that there have been discussions on the Ship, either dedicated threads or tangents on something else, sometime over the last 22 years. Several times is a distinct possibility.

    I'm pretty sure the topic has come up a couple of times at least, because I can remember posting that Texas Hava Nagila video more than once.

    Unless we were just discussing general evangelical support for Israel, but I don't think so.
    TBH, the subject of Messianic Jews is of sufficiently little interest to me that I probably wouldn't have read a thread dedicated to the subject (except, of course, the period when I was a Purgatory host). Which makes the previous discussions I remember almost certainly within the context of other subjects. Israel/Palestine threads are something I've always taken an interest in, so general discussion of evangelical support for Israel is a possibility.

    I don't recall that Texas Hava Nagila video at all.
  • I remember Messianic Judaism coming up before in threads on Christian Seders - i.e. here from 2015 and here from 2013. But it has come up regularly before this thread started by Chastmastr in 2015 on Supercessionism and this thread on the Magic of the sinner's prayer and this thread entitled "Do this to remember me".

    This thread has stetson posting on Messianic Jews - about Bar Mitzvahs, as was this thread, also from 2013, with different contributors.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Thanks for all that digging, Curiosity Killed!

    I don't see the thread(s) where I posted the Texas Hava Nagila video, so I'm guessing there are other threads kicking about on MJs, or maybe that was about a different topic.

    I do recall at least one thread specifically dedicated to Armstrongism/British Israel, which is even wackier than MJism. (I mean, at least Christians can claim some connection to Judaism; the British, qua the British, not so much).

  • I don't remember the Texan Hava Nagila before. And Oblivion on the old Ship doesn't really go back beyond 2012. I didn't search beyond Oblivion and Christian Seders.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I don't remember the Texan Hava Nagila before. And Oblivion on the old Ship doesn't really go back beyond 2012. I didn't search beyond Oblivion and Christian Seders.

    I think I would have simply posted a link to the video, with a short comment about it, so it would be an easy thing to miss.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Question for anyone familiar with the CMJ group...

    Do they encourage Jewish converts to worship in distinct congregations, with the trappings of traditional Jewish worship, eg. yarmulkes, Stars Of David, Friday/Saturday sabbath, Hebrew terminology, kosher diets in some cases etc?

    Because that's all a big part of Messianic Judaism as I've observed it in North America.
  • So... what proportion of Jewish converts to Christianity would call themselves "Messianic Jews"?

    And what proportion of those who would call themsevles "Messianic Jews" are actually from a Christian background originally but have adopted Jewish cultural practices?

    And how do these groups feel about each other?

    Do we have any handle on the answers to these questions?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 15
    My friends who adhere to the ChaBaD Chassidic flavor of Judaism identify Messianic Jews as Baptists in Orthodox hats.

    The Chassidim have their own messianic narrative, they aren't about to conflate Moshiach with Jesus any time soon.

    I think that about sums it up for me.

    AFF
  • Er.... thank you AFF but I think you may have to unpack both of those sentences for my feeble TQTastic brain. Baptists in Orthodox hats??
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    @TurquoiseTastic

    Those are all good questions. The only one I can really answer with even a semi-educated guess is the first one. So...

    My guess would be that the overwhelming majority of Jewish-to-Christian(JTC) converts are not much like the people called "Messianic Jews". Especially if the overall category of "Jewish-to-Christian converts" is defined so as to include people from more-or-less secular backgrounds, maybe with just one Jewish parent, and/or who convert to an MOTR denomination like Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican etc.

    As such, I don't think most JTC converts would use the term "Messianic Jew" to describe themselves. No idea what they would think about the people who do so identify. Perhaps it would just be the same as what they think about fundamentalism and pre-millennialism generally? Maybe if they maintain a strong cultural identity as Jews, they'd resent the appropriation?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Er.... thank you AFF but I think you may have to unpack both of those sentences for my feeble TQTastic brain. Baptists in Orthodox hats??

    They're Christians who observe the laws of khashrut. They aren't Jews at all, they just live and dress like they are. They have not undertaken any kind of conversion to the Orthodox Judaism whose dress and lifestyle they imitate.

    The Chassidim are quite firm on the matter. Moshiach has NOT arrived yet, and they view the subtle incursion of "Messianic Jews" into their narrative as wolves in sheep's clothing. If you hang out with Messianic Jews for long enough they'll start yammering on about Jesus. The Chassidim find this highly offensive, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

    AFF

  • Some may find this interesting: an article on Jews for Jesus from the Jewish Virtual Library.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 15
    I think AFF has summed up what I would expect to be the typical Jewish attitude toward Messianics. I'll only add for a bit of clarification that using "Baptists" as the synechdoche could be a little misleading, because MJs have a very specific set of eschatological beliefs which are by no means held by all Baptists.

    But I know what she meant: non-Jews pretending to be Jews.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Some may find this interesting: an article on Jews for Jesus from the Jewish Virtual Library.

    Thanks MT.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited February 15
    There's a real problem, though, with taking one set of Jewish people's views to be definitive over and against others. In particular, I'm aware of quite a few Jewish people for whom the simple fact of Christian faith removes all Jewishness from the believer, regardless of his/her parentage, culture, previous / ongoing practice, and self-identification.

    That can't be right. It would be like saying that I cease to be myself because someone else with whom I share an identity class is angry about one of my beliefs. And it would be worse if third parties, with no skin in the game, decided to agree with that person and freeze me out.

    (In particular, I have a friend from either Conservative or Orthodox family-of-origin, brought up practicing, imersed in his culture, a cohen even, very well educated in Judaism--who is now a Lutheran pastor (without relinquishing any of that stuff). You wouldn't believe the shit he gets. And he gets it from all sides, including from non-Jews who feel called upon to support the subset of Jews who claim he is no longer Jewish. Yikes. There is no freaking way I want to see people piling more crap on him.)

    ((Oh, and yammering on about Jesus is sort of the brief for Christian disciples of whatever stripe. One hopes that one does it as inoffensively as possible, but it's really a bit much to expect Jewish Christians to refrain from what the rest of the faith takes for granted.))
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 15
    ((Oh, and yammering on about Jesus is sort of the brief for Christian disciples of whatever stripe. One hopes that one does it as inoffensively as possible, but it's really a bit much to expect Jewish Christians to refrain from what the rest of the faith takes for granted.))

    Jewish Christian is an oxymoron in my vocabulary. As is Christian Jew.

    YMMV

    AFF

  • Well, I'm sorry to hear it, as it's basically a stance that says my friend doesn't exist. But I'm sure he's used to that.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Well, I'm sorry to hear it, as it's basically a stance that says my friend doesn't exist. But I'm sure he's used to that.

    What I think of your friend has no bearing on anything that exists in reality.

    He exists. He calls himself a Christian Jew. I can't parse those two things in my head in the same sentence, it has nothing to do with reality.

    The line the Chassidim draw is a remarkable simple one. Either you think that Moshiach came 2000 years ago and fulfilled the prophecies, or you are still waiting for Him. Whichever side of that line you stand determines your "Jewishness" - in their reality. And I happen to agree.

    AFF
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    @Lamb Chopped

    Yeah. Right before I read your post, I was thinking how there are self-identified Jewish Unitarians, some of whom almost certainly reject the supernatural elements of Judaism, including belief in God, and ALL of whom would be obliged by the principles of Unitarianism to respect the spiritual paths chosen by humanists, Christians, atheists, pagans etc.

    So I wonder what the author of the Jewish Virtual Library article would think about, say, a Jewish Unitarian who likes the trappings of the sabbath and the social-justice stuff in the Torah and the tradition, but has no belief in God, and is comfortable worshipping alongside Buddhists and animists every Sunday?

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Well, I'm sorry to hear it, as it's basically a stance that says my friend doesn't exist. But I'm sure he's used to that.

    What I think of your friend has no bearing on anything that exists in reality.

    He exists. He calls himself a Christian Jew. I can't parse those two things in my head in the same sentence, it has nothing to do with reality.

    The line the Chassidim draw is a remarkable simple one. Either you think that Moshiach came 2000 years ago and fulfilled the prophecies, or you are still waiting for Him. Whichever side of that line you stand determines your "Jewishness" - in their reality. And I happen to agree.

    AFF

    I just found an article called "I'm a secular rabbi who doesn't believe in God. Yes, we exist." The woman is part of something called Secular Humanist Judaism.

    Since she doesn't believe in God, it's likely she's not waiting for the Messiah.
  • Well, I don't want to scream about erasure, because realistically we're all going to run into people who dislike or disbelieve in our existence, and it's basically more proof that the world sucks, and we get to suck it up, buttercup. But you might consider the pain you could be causing if you decide to express that view TO a Christian Jew.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Arguably Christianity is just an eccentric sect of Judaism. (I first heard that position mentioned by a Jew at a branch of University Christians and Jews.)

    Jewishness is an ethnic identity as well as a religious identity. That said, given the history of Jewish-Christian relations in Europe I'm not sure that as a gentile one is really in a position to take sides.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Arguably Christianity is just an eccentric sect of Judaism. (I first heard that position mentioned by a Jew at a branch of University Christians and Jews.)

    I'm good with that. I fear my sister-in-law would have a fit, though. She's Conservative.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Were Jesus disciples Jews or Christians? What about Paul? What about a friend of mine- a North London circumcised and bar mitzvah-ed Jew who came to believe that the messianic hopes expressed in the Hebrew Scriptures found their fulfilment in the carpenter-rabbi, Jesus of Nazareth? Did he cease to be a Jew?
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    ...
    Jewishness is an ethnic identity as well as a religious identity. ....

    A fact that is well understood by the Chassidim, which is why if you hail from any other Orthodox tradition, or Conservative Judaism or Reform Judaism, you have to undergo a full conversion, as if you were coming from outside Judaism, in order to become a member of their shul.

    AFF

  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Arguably Christianity is just an eccentric sect of Judaism.

    That was unarguably the case until well after the Jerusalem council. When it stopped being self-evident is hotly contested, however. Perhaps when Christians stopped being persecuted by their rabbinic brethren and started returning the favor, which would put it about a hundred years after Christ's death.
  • stetson wrote: »

    I just found an article called "I'm a secular rabbi who doesn't believe in God. Yes, we exist." The woman is part of something called Secular Humanist Judaism.

    Since she doesn't believe in God, it's likely she's not waiting for the Messiah.

    My professor of Phil of Religion, I found out decades later, is a Chassidic rabbi and one of the world's most respected Kabbalist scholars, but nobody could argue more convincingly against the existence of God than he could.

    He was also a world renowned authority on Plato.

    I never even knew this until three decades later I was studying the Tanya and the Zohar with a Chassidic rabbi and I mentioned my professor's name. Dude's eyes got round like saucers.

    AFF


  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »

    I just found an article called "I'm a secular rabbi who doesn't believe in God. Yes, we exist." The woman is part of something called Secular Humanist Judaism.

    Since she doesn't believe in God, it's likely she's not waiting for the Messiah.

    My professor of Phil of Religion, I found out decades later, is a Chassidic rabbi and one of the world's most respected Kabbalist scholars, but nobody could argue more convincingly against the existence of God than he could.

    He was also a world renowned authority on Plato.

    I never even knew this until three decades later I was studying the Tanya and the Zohar with a Chassidic rabbi and I mentioned my professor's name. Dude's eyes got round like saucers.

    AFF


    So, just to clarify, your prof was an atheist?

    Or was he was a theist who disagreed with some of the arguments made for God's existence and was good at refuting them?

    Or maybe he believed the arguments, but just made the case against them for the sake of classroom discussion?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 15
    stetson wrote: »

    So, just to clarify, your prof was an atheist?

    Or was he was a theist who disagreed with some of the arguments made for God's existence and was good at refuting them?

    Or maybe he believed the arguments, but just made the case against them for the sake of classroom discussion?

    He was a philosopher/logician. And a rabbi. And a mystic.

    He had a particular way of classifying "knowing" - rational and non-rational (not irrational) so he was able to partition the two ways of understanding without cognitive dissonance.

    Fascinating dude. He had a huge influence on me.

    AFF

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 15
    Well, even if your prof identified as a believer in a non-rational, mystical sense(my own personal touchstone there is Kierkegaard), I think he'd still NOT be an atheist. Unlike the atheist rabbi from my article.

    I was really just curious what your Chassidic friends, who don't regard "Jesus is the Messiah" as a legitimate Jewish belief, would think about "There is no Messiah, full stop."
  • stetson wrote: »
    Well, even if your prof identified as a believer in a non-rational, mystical sense(my own personal touchstone there is Kierkegaard), I think he'd still NOT be an atheist. Unlike the atheist rabbi from my article.

    I was really just curious what your Chassidic friends, who don't regard "Jesus is the Messiah" as a legitimate Jewish belief, would think about "There is no Messiah, full stop."

    Same prof introduced me to Kierkegaard and Buber, both of whom opened my eyes to the possibility of being both an existentialist and a Christian.

    He wasn't an atheist, but could certainly pass for one if he wanted.

    I think they would ask "what do you mean doesn't exist?"

    The Chassidim are fully convinced that Moshiach exists, just not on this plane of reality, and they are simply waiting for Him to manifest. Their perception of the mechanics of reality is informed by the Tanya as it probes into the esoteric truths that skate on the surface in the Torah and the Tanakh.

    AFF
  • OK on first inspection I have no problem with Jews for Jesus. I can see why other Jews wouldn't like them but I think that if you are a Jew and you become a Christian but still wish to identify as culturally Jewish you should have every right to do so. Let's call this "Group 1".

    What I am asking about is - I believe there are Christians who are not from a Jewish background but are identifying as Messianic Jews. This does not seem OK to me; it seems misleading at best. Let's call this "Group 2".

    However what the website @mousethief linked to seems to be saying is that "now that these former Jews have become Christians, they should no longer be allowed to identify as Jewish". In fact the way they put it seems very misleading itself - they say: "These aren't really Jews, these are evangelical Christians!". They are essentially saying that Group 1 and Group 2 are the same. Which doesn't seem correct to me. A casual reader of the website might easily think that Jews for Jesus were exemplars of Group 2, whereas in fact (AFAICS) they are exemplars of Group 1.
  • OK on first inspection I have no problem with Jews for Jesus. I can see why other Jews wouldn't like them but I think that if you are a Jew and you become a Christian but still wish to identify as culturally Jewish you should have every right to do so. Let's call this "Group 1".

    What I am asking about is - I believe there are Christians who are not from a Jewish background but are identifying as Messianic Jews. This does not seem OK to me; it seems misleading at best. Let's call this "Group 2".

    But some, many, most, or all of them claim they have a Jewish ancestor umpteen generations back, so that makes them Messianic Jews. I doubt many just decided one day to be Jewish.

  • mousethief wrote: »
    But some, many, most, or all of them claim they have a Jewish ancestor umpteen generations back, so that makes them Messianic Jews. I doubt many just decided one day to be Jewish.
    That sounds exactly like "deciding one day to be Jewish" to me.

    But is that what people are doing? It sounds like "Jews for Jesus" for example are not really doing that, at least not most of them!
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Well, I'm sorry to hear it, as it's basically a stance that says my friend doesn't exist. But I'm sure he's used to that.


    What I think of your friend has no bearing on anything that exists in reality.

    He exists. He calls himself a Christian Jew. I can't parse those two things in my head in the same sentence, it has nothing to do with reality.

    The line the Chassidim draw is a remarkable simple one. Either you think that Moshiach came 2000 years ago and fulfilled the prophecies, or you are still waiting for Him. Whichever side of that line you stand determines your "Jewishness" - in their reality. And I happen to agree.

    AFF
    I'm sorry @A Feminine Force to disagree with you, but I do and I agree with @Lamb Chopped. If her friend. who was born a Jew, was circumcised, was brought up practising, a cohen, and then converted to Christianity and became a Lutheran pastor, still regards himself as Jewish, then as far as I'm concerned, his self-identification prevails over your statement that he "has no bearing on anything that exists in reality". St Paul would have said the same.

    It may be that your Hasidic friends define Jewish in a way that doesn't include him, but that is little different from those Exclusive Brethren who define Christian in such a way that it only includes themselves.


  • I didn't say that LC's friend has no bearing on reality.

    I said that what I think about LC's friend has no bearing on reality.

    He exists and calls himself a Jewish Christian. Just because I am not able to conceive of what that actually means doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I didn't say that LC's friend has no bearing on reality.

    I said that what I think about LC's friend has no bearing on reality.

    He exists and calls himself a Jewish Christian. Just because I am not able to conceive of what that actually means doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    AFF

    You've been told what it means. I don't understand the problem.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Well, even if your prof identified as a believer in a non-rational, mystical sense(my own personal touchstone there is Kierkegaard), I think he'd still NOT be an atheist. Unlike the atheist rabbi from my article.

    I was really just curious what your Chassidic friends, who don't regard "Jesus is the Messiah" as a legitimate Jewish belief, would think about "There is no Messiah, full stop."

    Same prof introduced me to Kierkegaard and Buber, both of whom opened my eyes to the possibility of being both an existentialist and a Christian.

    He wasn't an atheist, but could certainly pass for one if he wanted.

    I think they would ask "what do you mean doesn't exist?"

    Let's assume the atheist rabbi believes that God doesn't exist in the same way that Bertrand Russell thought that God didn't exist. Not just that God hasn't manifested himself on this plane of reality, but that it is highly unlikely that he exists on ANY plane of reality, and there is little point in acting as if it's possible he does.

    From everything you've said here, I'm kind of guessing your Chassidic friends would not regard her as Jewish. Which would not be a big deal, except that, if I understand your posts correctly, you are citing these Chassidics to back up your own view that MJs are outside the fold of Judaism. But do you think that their standards should be applied when examining the claims off all groups professing to be Jewish?

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I'm A Secular Rabbi Who Doesn't Believe In God. Yes, We Exist.

    Of course, someone like Rabbi Handlarski would be someone on the polar opposite end of the theological spectrum from MJs, the latter being hardcore theists who believe that God is very much involved in the everyday workings of the material world. The point is, they are both groups the Chassidics would likely reject.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    And since this exchange from the original thread is more relevant to this one, I'm gonna post it here.

    ENOCH WROTE:

    Hava Nagila Texas Style

    Can a shipmate tell me why that weird performance isn't condemned as cultural appropriation?

    What difference is there between that and a white person singing reggae or adopting a rasta hairstyle? Yet, there are people in the audience waving Israeli flags and wearing yarmulkes. Are they real Jews appreciating the performance or other cultural appropriators?

    This is a genuine query, from someone from a foreign culture where this is not so much of an issue as it seems to be in the USA. Is there something important about this controversial subject that I have not understood?


    STETSON WROTE:

    Well, the people involved in far-right Christian Zionism are not usually the kind who worry about cultural appropriation. That tends to be more a left-wing or liberal concern, and I suspect something like Texas Hava Nagila isn't really on the radar for most progressives.

    Furthermore, assuming some of those Christians actually consider themselves Messianic Jews(as opposed to just being Christians who really like Jews) they might view Hava Nagila as their moral property anyway.

    Not sure how many of the people in attendance would be Jewish in the typical understanding of the idea(ie. not gentiles who converted to Messianic Judaism). Though I think almost everyone would be a believer in the Messiahship of Jesus.

  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »

    You've been told what it means. I don't understand the problem.

    So what am I to do with the fact that one of the central tenets of Judaism is that they deny that Jesus Christ was Moshiach and that the prophecies were fulfilled by Him?

    I don't see how those two things square in any way shape or form.

    I understand that Judaism is a cultural as well as a religious designation. It may well be that someone born to a Jewish mother is Jewish by birth and upbringing, but I can't see how the faith tenets of Judaism can in any way be claimed once one has accepted Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets.

    For five years I attended shul on Saturday and church on Sunday. I was asked many times, since I was received as a friend of the congregation, when was I going to make a conversion to Judaism and I always had to answer that I couldn't because I couldn't give up my relationship with Jesus.

    Maybe if I had been hanging out with the Reform Jews, they wouldn't have had a problem with that, I don't know. As it was, I was deep in the study of the Tanya which wasn't offered by the other more moderate congregations in my town.

    I have similar problems with other groups who make "identity statements". It comes to the point where a word no longer means what we think it means, and then we have to agree on a new definition. Right now, I find myself still in disagreement with the redefinition.

    AFF



  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Lots of people consider themselves to be Jews without holding to the faith positions of Judaism.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    stetson wrote: »
    I'm A Secular Rabbi Who Doesn't Believe In God. Yes, We Exist.

    Of course, someone like Rabbi Handlarski would be someone on the polar opposite end of the theological spectrum from MJs, the latter being hardcore theists who believe that God is very much involved in the everyday workings of the material world. The point is, they are both groups the Chassidics would likely reject.

    To be fair, and as I stated earlier, the Chassidim are not an inclusive bunch by nature. They don't even regard other branches of Orthodoxy, Conservative or Reform Judaism as "properly Jewish". If you come from any of those congregations you would have to undergo a full conversion ritual, just as I would as a gentile, in order to join their congregation.

    They had to tolerate me as a Tanya scholar only because ten years earlier, the Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson O.B.M. declared that in order for the world to be prepared for the indwelling of the coming Moshiach, study of the Tanya and the Zohar was opened to anyone who wanted to learn. Up until then, it had been restricted only to married men over the age of forty.

    So I don't hold them up as shining examples of inclusivity, but I think they are right to feel that their identifying habits of dress and culture are being appropriated by Christians for purposes that run entirely counter to their own perceived mission, which is to prepare the world for the coming of Moshiach.

    AFF


  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »

    You've been told what it means. I don't understand the problem.

    So what am I to do with the fact that one of the central tenets of Judaism is that they deny that Jesus Christ was Moshiach and that the prophecies were fulfilled by Him?

    I don't see how those two things square in any way shape or form.

    I'm not sure I'd say it's a "central tenet" of Judaism that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, any more than it's a central tenet that the Reverend Moon(who also claimed to be the Messiah) wasn't.

    Though I guess you could say that it's a central tenet of Judaism that the Messiah hasn't appeared yet, and so by extrapolation, anyone previously making claims to be the Messiah was wrong.

    And culturally, though not theolgically, not being Christian has arguably been an unofficial part of the Jewish identity in the West, in a way that's different from Hindus or Buddhists not being Christian.





  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Lots of people consider themselves to be Jews without holding to the faith positions of Judaism.

    Yes while this is true, relatively few of them in the same breath profess to be Christians.

    So LC's friend receives all kinds of blowback from both Christians and Jews who have the same kind of difficulty as I do parsing the idea of "Jewish Christian" or "Christian Jew" because the definitions of both these terms are weighted with a lot of contradictory personal as well as theological, cultural and historical sub-definitions.

    If he's making the claim, then I think he has to be clear about what he means when he says it, and even then, his audience is not obligated to agree with him.

    It's just hard for everyone when they are presented with this task of redefining and agreeing to new definitions of labels which, historically, have been fairly well delineated in the first place. One can hardly expect to make the claim without exciting discussion, but if LC's friend is up for it, then I expect he has a lot of very interesting conversations.

    AFF

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    It seems that your definition of Jewishness is largely religious with a cultural element.

    You don't see ethnicity as part of what being Jewish is? What does your definition mean if someone who is ethnically Jewish converts to Christianity? Do they then cease to be Jewish?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It seems that your definition of Jewishness is largely religious with a cultural element.

    You don't see ethnicity as part of what being Jewish is? What does your definition mean if someone who is ethnically Jewish converts to Christianity? Do they then cease to be Jewish?

    I don't know, TBH.

    I don't think it's for me to say because I'm not Jewish. I think it's for them and their Jewish family to work out.

    I agree with my Chassidic friends for the most part because their position squares with my own, and that is that I see Judaism, at its core, is a religion first, and a culture second on account of how the culture revolves around the observance of the faith tenets of that religion.

    You can call yourself whatever you like, whether I agree with you or not doesn't change how you see yourself. What I think is neither here nor there in the equation.

    AFF
  • It is a central tenet of Judaism that God Is One. The page that I posted said that to return to the fold after conversion to Christianity, one would have to reaffirm that God Is One, very obviously referring to renouncing the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    It is a central tenet of Judaism that God Is One. The page that I posted said that to return to the fold after conversion to Christianity, one would have to reaffirm that God Is One, very obviously referring to renouncing the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    Yes, but I don't think that adherence to Judaism is necessary in order to be Jewish.
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