Messianic Judaism

2

Comments

  • I've certainly encountered Jewish folk in the past who asserted that it was entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist but not a Jewish Christian.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    It is a central tenet of Judaism that God Is One. The page that I posted said that to return to the fold after conversion to Christianity, one would have to reaffirm that God Is One, very obviously referring to renouncing the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    Yes, but I don't think that adherence to Judaism is necessary in order to be Jewish.

    I don't think I, as a gentile, am in any position to make that pronouncement. I wouldn't dare. And I wouldn't dare to say so to the face of any Jew I was acquainted with, Orthodox or not.

    Now if they were to say the same thing to me, then that would be another story.

    AFF
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 16
    I've certainly encountered Jewish folk in the past who asserted that it was entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist but not a Jewish Christian.

    I'd be curious as to how that works.

    Presumably, so-called Jewish Christianity is off the menu because they have an incorrect idea about who the Messiah is. Fair enough, but then how is it okay to think that there is NO Messiah at all?

    Is it basically just a case of defining yourself by what you're not, as I alluded to earlier? IOW conceptualizing yourself as non-Christian is more central to your identity than belief in God?

    FWIW, according to the reading I've been doing, when Secular Humanist Judaism got going as a movement within Reform Judaism in the 1960s, there were other Reform rabbis who said that the Humanists should be considered a discussion club, not a synagogue.

    (Just to be clear, as a Unitarian, I have nothing against atheistic religious movements. I'm just wondering what the standard is for drumming some people out and not others.)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    It is a central tenet of Judaism that God Is One. The page that I posted said that to return to the fold after conversion to Christianity, one would have to reaffirm that God Is One, very obviously referring to renouncing the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    Yes, but I don't think that adherence to Judaism is necessary in order to be Jewish.

    I don't think I, as a gentile, am in any position to make that pronouncement. I wouldn't dare. And I wouldn't dare to say so to the face of any Jew I was acquainted with, Orthodox or not.

    Now if they were to say the same thing to me, then that would be another story.

    AFF

    I'm not making a pronouncement. I'm giving the understanding I've been given. And all the people who say they're Jewish but don't believe in Judaism sort of force me to that conclusion.

    It's not me making this stuff up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »

    I'm not making a pronouncement. I'm giving the understanding I've been given. And all the people who say they're Jewish but don't believe in Judaism sort of force me to that conclusion.

    It's not me making this stuff up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism

    Like I said, I get that there's a cultural component to Jewish identity. But these people aren't declaring themselves to be Christians in the same breath either.

    The article even states that the children of late 19th century secularists converted to Christianity. Though it doesn't specify whether they abandoned their identfication with their Jewish roots, it does make the case that Jewish identity without the theological underpinning tends to drift into the tides of other religious identities.

    AFF


  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    What ethnicity do you change to if as an ethnically Jewish person you convert to Christianity?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    What ethnicity do you change to if as an ethnically Jewish person you convert to Christianity?

    If it were me, I wouln't identify as Jewish if I converted to Christianity. I would identify as a Christian. I would say "I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old".

    AFF



  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 16
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    We've established that Atheism doesn't preclude Jewishness - what non-Judaistic beliefs do? Is it Christianity only or can you be a Jewish Muslim?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    What are the options? I haven't ticked any boxes on a census form in a very long time. Is "none of the above" one f them?

    AFF

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    What are the options? I haven't ticked any boxes on a census form in a very long time. Is "none of the above" one f them?

    AFF

    It is, but it doesn't mean "none". It means "Other"; that yours isn't listed. So what box would you be looking for?

    The thing is, you've implied it's hubristic of me to suggest it's possible to be ethnically Jewish but have any or no religious belief, and here are you insisting that all the people who identify as ethnically Jewish but Christian in belief are wrong. That strikes me as hubristic.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    What are the options? I haven't ticked any boxes on a census form in a very long time. Is "none of the above" one f them?

    AFF

    It is, but it doesn't mean "none". It means "Other"; that yours isn't listed. So what box would you be looking for?

    "Other" would do.

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    What are the options? I haven't ticked any boxes on a census form in a very long time. Is "none of the above" one f them?

    AFF

    It is, but it doesn't mean "none". It means "Other"; that yours isn't listed. So what box would you be looking for?

    "Other" would do.

    AFF

    That's dodging the question. There's a write in box. What will you write in it? What do you think your ethnicity now is?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Christianity isn't an ethnicity. So what box would you tick on the census?

    What are the options? I haven't ticked any boxes on a census form in a very long time. Is "none of the above" one f them?

    AFF

    It is, but it doesn't mean "none". It means "Other"; that yours isn't listed. So what box would you be looking for?

    The thing is, you've implied it's hubristic of me to suggest it's possible to be ethnically Jewish but have any or no religious belief, and here are you insisting that all the people who identify as ethnically Jewish but Christian in belief are wrong. That strikes me as hubristic.

    OK so it's hubristic. Or whatever you like to call it.

    I can't square it logically, no matter how I try.

    So what if I think their reasoning is flawed? They're happy saying what they're saying and I'm, no matter what, going to continue scratching my head wondering what they mean when they say it.

    The world will not stop spinning on ts axis on account of that.

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 16
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs. They don't stop being ethnically Jewish any more than I would become ethnically Haitian instead of White British if I started believing in Voodoo.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs.

    Isn't that exactly what I said above? "I am a Christian. I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old."

    I don't HAVE to say any ethnicity. I don't have to identify as any ethnic group at all and to say that I do is, well, preposterous.

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs.

    Isn't that exactly what I said above? "I am a Christian. I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old."

    AFF

    No, it's different because they still identify as Jewish. Your formulation implies used to be Jewish.

    You have an ethnicity whether you identify with one or not, unless you had no ancestors.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    And since this exchange from the original thread is more relevant to this one, I'm gonna post it here.

    ENOCH WROTE:

    Hava Nagila Texas Style

    Can a shipmate tell me why that weird performance isn't condemned as cultural appropriation?

    What difference is there between that and a white person singing reggae or adopting a rasta hairstyle? Yet, there are people in the audience waving Israeli flags and wearing yarmulkes. Are they real Jews appreciating the performance or other cultural appropriators?

    This is a genuine query, from someone from a foreign culture where this is not so much of an issue as it seems to be in the USA. Is there something important about this controversial subject that I have not understood?


    STETSON WROTE:

    Well, the people involved in far-right Christian Zionism are not usually the kind who worry about cultural appropriation. That tends to be more a left-wing or liberal concern, and I suspect something like Texas Hava Nagila isn't really on the radar for most progressives.

    Furthermore, assuming some of those Christians actually consider themselves Messianic Jews(as opposed to just being Christians who really like Jews) they might view Hava Nagila as their moral property anyway.

    Not sure how many of the people in attendance would be Jewish in the typical understanding of the idea(ie. not gentiles who converted to Messianic Judaism). Though I think almost everyone would be a believer in the Messiahship of Jesus.
    @stetson But is the context of the Hava Nagila Texas Style anything to do with either Messianic Judaism or Christian Zionism? There's no sign that it's anything other than a secular occasion or a political rally of some sort. Is the singer anyone well known and what is his back story?

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It seems that your definition of Jewishness is largely religious with a cultural element.

    You don't see ethnicity as part of what being Jewish is? What does your definition mean if someone who is ethnically Jewish converts to Christianity? Do they then cease to be Jewish?


    I don't know, TBH.

    I don't think it's for me to say because I'm not Jewish. I think it's for them and their Jewish family to work out.

    I agree with my Chassidic friends for the most part because their position squares with my own, and that is that I see Judaism, at its core, is a religion first, and a culture second on account of how the culture revolves around the observance of the faith tenets of that religion.

    You can call yourself whatever you like, whether I agree with you or not doesn't change how you see yourself. What I think is neither here nor there in the equation.

    AFF
    Sorry @A Feminine Force I'm not prepared to let you get away with that one. You're saying that as you're not Jewish, it's not for you to say who is Jewish. Yet you've also said that according to either your tenets or the understanding of Jewishness you've attributed to a particular sect you're friends with, you are prepared to say who isn't Jewish.

    I don't think that's a tenable position.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs.

    Isn't that exactly what I said above? "I am a Christian. I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old."

    AFF

    No, it's different because they still identify as Jewish. Your formulation implies used to be Jewish.

    You have an ethnicity whether you identify with one or not, unless you had no ancestors.

    Well and that's fine that they do, but the fact that they do stirs up controversy on both sides, because the separation between the cultural and religious aspects of Judaism are not well defined even in Jewish minds.

    Observance of the Levitical laws might be a good place to start that definition. At what point does observance of a religious law become merely a secular expression of a cultural custom and no longer the practice of a certain religion?

    At what point can one who is Jewish say "this is where my customary observance of ritual or dress or diet stops being about religion and is just a cultural artifact of my upbringing"?

    AFF


  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs.

    Isn't that exactly what I said above? "I am a Christian. I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old."

    AFF

    No, it's different because they still identify as Jewish. Your formulation implies used to be Jewish.

    You have an ethnicity whether you identify with one or not, unless you had no ancestors.

    Well and that's fine that they do, but the fact that they do stirs up controversy on both sides, because the separation between the cultural and religious aspects of Judaism are not well defined even in Jewish minds.

    Observance of the Levitical laws might be a good place to start that definition. At what point does observance of a religious law become merely a secular expression of a cultural custom and no longer the practice of a certain religion?

    At what point can one who is Jewish say "this is where my customary observance of ritual or dress or diet stops being about religion and is just a cultural artifact of my upbringing"?

    AFF


    That's not for me to say. It's for people who identify as Jewish.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    But I've explained what they mean. They are Jewish by birth and culture, but have adopted Christian beliefs.

    Isn't that exactly what I said above? "I am a Christian. I was born into a Jewish family but made a conversion to Christianity when I was X years old."

    AFF

    No, it's different because they still identify as Jewish. Your formulation implies used to be Jewish.

    You have an ethnicity whether you identify with one or not, unless you had no ancestors.

    Well and that's fine that they do, but the fact that they do stirs up controversy on both sides, because the separation between the cultural and religious aspects of Judaism are not well defined even in Jewish minds.

    Observance of the Levitical laws might be a good place to start that definition. At what point does observance of a religious law become merely a secular expression of a cultural custom and no longer the practice of a certain religion?

    At what point can one who is Jewish say "this is where my customary observance of ritual or dress or diet stops being about religion and is just a cultural artifact of my upbringing"?

    AFF


    That's not for me to say. It's for people who identify as Jewish.

    Exactly. And so they have to explain it to me.

    AFF
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    Enoch wrote: »
    Sorry @A Feminine Force I'm not prepared to let you get away with that one. You're saying that as you're not Jewish, it's not for you to say who is Jewish. Yet you've also said that according to either your tenets or the understanding of Jewishness you've attributed to a particular sect you're friends with, you are prepared to say who isn't Jewish.

    I don't think that's a tenable position.

    How? Sorry I lost you there. Or I lost myself. Recap?

    AFF

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Sorry @A Feminine Force I'm not prepared to let you get away with that one. You're saying that as you're not Jewish, it's not for you to say who is Jewish. Yet you've also said that according to either your tenets or the understanding of Jewishness you've attributed to a particular sect you're friends with, you are prepared to say who isn't Jewish.

    I don't think that's a tenable position.

    How? Sorry I lost you there. Or I lost myself. Recap?

    AFF

    I thought Enoch was crystal clear. Are you entitled to declare who is and isn't Jewish, or are you not?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    Sorry @A Feminine Force I'm not prepared to let you get away with that one. You're saying that as you're not Jewish, it's not for you to say who is Jewish. Yet you've also said that according to either your tenets or the understanding of Jewishness you've attributed to a particular sect you're friends with, you are prepared to say who isn't Jewish.

    I don't think that's a tenable position.

    How? Sorry I lost you there. Or I lost myself. Recap?

    AFF

    I thought Enoch was crystal clear. Are you entitled to declare who is and isn't Jewish, or are you not?

    I've already said I don't think it's my place to say who is Jewish, I'm just not clear about where I exactly I said it's my place to say who isn't. Give me a hand here. I hate logical inconsistency.

    AFF
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And since this exchange from the original thread is more relevant to this one, I'm gonna post it here.

    ENOCH WROTE:

    Hava Nagila Texas Style

    Can a shipmate tell me why that weird performance isn't condemned as cultural appropriation?

    What difference is there between that and a white person singing reggae or adopting a rasta hairstyle? Yet, there are people in the audience waving Israeli flags and wearing yarmulkes. Are they real Jews appreciating the performance or other cultural appropriators?

    This is a genuine query, from someone from a foreign culture where this is not so much of an issue as it seems to be in the USA. Is there something important about this controversial subject that I have not understood?


    STETSON WROTE:

    Well, the people involved in far-right Christian Zionism are not usually the kind who worry about cultural appropriation. That tends to be more a left-wing or liberal concern, and I suspect something like Texas Hava Nagila isn't really on the radar for most progressives.

    Furthermore, assuming some of those Christians actually consider themselves Messianic Jews(as opposed to just being Christians who really like Jews) they might view Hava Nagila as their moral property anyway.

    Not sure how many of the people in attendance would be Jewish in the typical understanding of the idea(ie. not gentiles who converted to Messianic Judaism). Though I think almost everyone would be a believer in the Messiahship of Jesus.
    @stetson But is the context of the Hava Nagila Texas Style anything to do with either Messianic Judaism or Christian Zionism? There's no sign that it's anything other than a secular occasion or a political rally of some sort. Is the singer anyone well known and what is his back story?

    Okay, sorry. The song was performed at a rally for a group called Christians United For Israel. So yes, it's definitely a Christian Zionist context.

    I'm not sure, though, if the performers and audience are Messianic Jews per se. But the song is about a Texan celebrating the Jewish sabbath, and I assume the narrator is meant to be understood as Christian. So at the very least, they would seem to be advocating a mixing of Christian belief with Jewish practices.

    Don't know anything about the main performer. I think his surname is Gross? There used to be another video of him performing the same song at a different event, but it's been gone for years. I would think he is not well known to the general public.
  • AFAIK, no religion has a central tenet that says "person X is not Y." There are plenty that have tenets that say "person X IS Y," but denials are not central tenets. They are reactions to perceived heresies, and not central at all. ("Muhammad is not a prophet of God" is not a central tenet of Christianity; Christianity at its center is not thinking of him at all. It is an rather apologetic or polemical response. If Muhammad had never been born, it would not have changed Christianity in any significant, central way.)

    Take it from a different direction--if you say that "Jesus is not the Messiah" is a central tenet of Judaism, you invalidate Judaism prior to the coming of Christ--because that tenet could not have existed, and any religion missing a central tenet is ... not the same religion.
  • AFAIK, no religion has a central tenet that says "person X is not Y." There are plenty that have tenets that say "person X IS Y," but denials are not central tenets. They are reactions to perceived heresies, and not central at all. ("Muhammad is not a prophet of God" is not a central tenet of Christianity; Christianity at its center is not thinking of him at all. It is an rather apologetic or polemical response. If Muhammad had never been born, it would not have changed Christianity in any significant, central way.)

    Take it from a different direction--if you say that "Jesus is not the Messiah" is a central tenet of Judaism, you invalidate Judaism prior to the coming of Christ--because that tenet could not have existed, and any religion missing a central tenet is ... not the same religion.

    I think you could argue that Rabbinic Judaism after the destruction of the temple partly defines itself in opposition to Christianity, and there's a fair amount of support for the idea that the destruction of the temple fundamentally changed Judaism.

    More directly, I think you could make a good case for Jesus-not-being-God being fundamental to Islam (it's implicit in Islamic understanding of "there is no god but God...").
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 16
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    Sorry @A Feminine Force I'm not prepared to let you get away with that one. You're saying that as you're not Jewish, it's not for you to say who is Jewish. Yet you've also said that according to either your tenets or the understanding of Jewishness you've attributed to a particular sect you're friends with, you are prepared to say who isn't Jewish.

    I don't think that's a tenable position.

    How? Sorry I lost you there. Or I lost myself. Recap?

    AFF

    I thought Enoch was crystal clear. Are you entitled to declare who is and isn't Jewish, or are you not?

    I've already said I don't think it's my place to say who is Jewish, I'm just not clear about where I exactly I said it's my place to say who isn't. Give me a hand here. I hate logical inconsistency.

    AFF

    AFF all bloody afternoon: "People who convert to Christianity can't still be Jewish"

    ie "I have a definition of 'Jewish' that goes beyond 'people who consider themselves Jewish' and my definition excludes Christians"

    Also AFF on this thread "I don't get to define 'Jewish'"

    Plain as a pikestaff, it is.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited February 16
    AFAIK, no religion has a central tenet that says "person X is not Y." There are plenty that have tenets that say "person X IS Y," but denials are not central tenets. They are reactions to perceived heresies, and not central at all. ("Muhammad is not a prophet of God" is not a central tenet of Christianity; Christianity at its center is not thinking of him at all. It is an rather apologetic or polemical response. If Muhammad had never been born, it would not have changed Christianity in any significant, central way.)

    Take it from a different direction--if you say that "Jesus is not the Messiah" is a central tenet of Judaism, you invalidate Judaism prior to the coming of Christ--because that tenet could not have existed, and any religion missing a central tenet is ... not the same religion.

    I think you could argue that Rabbinic Judaism after the destruction of the temple partly defines itself in opposition to Christianity, and there's a fair amount of support for the idea that the destruction of the temple fundamentally changed Judaism.

    More directly, I think you could make a good case for Jesus-not-being-God being fundamental to Islam (it's implicit in Islamic understanding of "there is no god but God...").

    There it is==your word, "implicit." Nothing implicit is a central tenet--it may be an outworking of a central tenet, or an application of a central tenet, etc. etc. etc. But not central itself. If it were, we would have a very odd religion, psychologically speaking--the whole thing centered around a denial.

    This probably looks like word-nitpicking, but perhaps less so when you recall that AFF's reason for rejecting all Christian believers of any stripe, ethnicity, practice, ancestry, etc, from any title to the name "Jewish," was that "Jesus is not the Messiah" is a central tenet of Judaism. It just isn't so--and as a result the inference also falls to the ground.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 16

    AFF all bloody afternoon: "People who convert to Christianity can't still be Jewish"

    ie "I have a definition of 'Jewish' that goes beyond 'people who consider themselves Jewish' and my definition excludes Christians"

    Also AFF on this thread "I don't get to define 'Jewish'"

    Plain as a pikestaff, it is.

    LOL. OK then.

    Gonna have to rethink a few things.

    And on that note - it's past my bedtime.

    AFF
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »


    I thought Enoch was crystal clear. Are you entitled to declare who is and isn't Jewish, or are you not?


    I've already said I don't think it's my place to say who is Jewish, I'm just not clear about where I exactly I said it's my place to say who isn't. Give me a hand here. I hate logical inconsistency.

    AFF
    Inter alia from your discussion with @Lamb Chopped
    "Jewish Christian is an oxymoron in my vocabulary. As is Christian Jew."

    and

    "What I think of your friend has no bearing on anything that exists in reality.

    He exists. He calls himself a Christian Jew. I can't parse those two things in my head in the same sentence, it has nothing to do with reality."

  • I'm good with where we've come, actually. Maybe we can go back to talking about the really weird people who claim to be Jews with no connection whatsoever? Because I'm still freaked by that one.
  • I don't ever remember "Jewish" being a selectable answer to an ethnicity question on a census form. And I've filled out five decennial forms now.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I don't ever remember "Jewish" being a selectable answer to an ethnicity question on a census form. And I've filled out five decennial forms now.
    Same here, but I figured maybe it is in some other countries.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I don't ever remember "Jewish" being a selectable answer to an ethnicity question on a census form. And I've filled out five decennial forms now.
    Same here, but I figured maybe it is in some other countries.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but I think if the government wanted me to officially let them know I was Jewish, I'd scream bloody murder. Talk about a registry for sitting ducks.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I don't ever remember "Jewish" being a selectable answer to an ethnicity question on a census form. And I've filled out five decennial forms now.
    Same here, but I figured maybe it is in some other countries.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but I think if the government wanted me to officially let them know I was Jewish, I'd scream bloody murder. Talk about a registry for sitting ducks.
    Indeed.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 17
    I'm good with where we've come, actually. Maybe we can go back to talking about the really weird people who claim to be Jews with no connection whatsoever? Because I'm still freaked by that one.

    Well, I'm wondering how much discussion can be had, given that, among Shipmates, I appear to be the reigning expert on Messianic Jews, and my experience is basically confined to knowing a couple, and having read a few articles on the topic here and there.

    But I guess it's a fairly simple concept to grasp once you understand the premises, and I suppose it could be argued that they're just taking Restorationism to its logical conclusion: If you're gonna claim to be aping the Early Church, it probably makes sense to style yourself as a Jewish sect.

    On more contemporary matters, I was glad to see that most of the reportage on the arrest of alleged MAGA insurgent Michael Stepakoff specifies that he is a "Messianic rabbi", thus avoiding confusion. However, the Daily Beast somewhat oddly describes the status of MJs as "not widely accepted as representative of Judaism due to their belief in some Christian traditions". Two things about that...

    A. "not widely accepted as representative" makes it sound like they are, in fact, viewed as Jewish, but just very different from most, eg. "Hawaii is not widely representative of American states in terms of its geography."

    B. Describing belief in the divinity of Christ as part of "some Christian traditions" somewhat understates the case, I would say.

    And I noticed that the Haarertz article I found, while also specifying that Stepakoff is Messianic, didn't offer any further explanation about what that means. I'm guessing that in Israel, there might be a greater awareness of MJs, due to debates over Jewish identity and whatnot?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited February 17
    stetson wrote: »
    <snip>I suppose it could be argued that they're just taking Restorationism to its logical conclusion: If you're gonna claim to be aping the Early Church, it probably makes sense to style yourself as a Jewish sect. <snip>
    I can see that the argument might be made. But there is an oddity about assuming that 20th or 21st century European post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism isn’t in some respects as distant from the first century Second Temple Palestinian Judaism known to Jesus and Paul as contemporary Christianity.

    The Seder meal would be a good example. Some elements clearly do reach back to those times, but others are products of exile and of the loss of the Temple and the sacrificial system associated with it.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited February 17
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I don't ever remember "Jewish" being a selectable answer to an ethnicity question on a census form. And I've filled out five decennial forms now.
    Same here, but I figured maybe it is in some other countries.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but I think if the government wanted me to officially let them know I was Jewish, I'd scream bloody murder. Talk about a registry for sitting ducks.
    Indeed.

    There isn't on the UK one either (my mistake; I guess it's for similar reasons to those given here), but that's beside the point, which was that one can be ethnically Jewish without believing in Judaism in any of its forms, which is how one could consider oneself ethnically Jewish but Christian in belief.

    I'm not talking about gentile Christians who style themselves as Jewish here despite having no such connections; that seems bizarre although I've been aware of one or two. It seems to be a thing amongst some fairly off the wall evangelical charismatic types.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    <snip>I suppose it could be argued that they're just taking Restorationism to its logical conclusion: If you're gonna claim to be aping the Early Church, it probably makes sense to style yourself as a Jewish sect. <snip>
    I can see that the argument might be made. But there is an oddity about assuming that 20th or 21st century European post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism isn’t in some respects as distant from the first century Second Temple Palestinian Judaism known to Jesus and Paul as contemporary Christianity.

    The Seder meal would be a good example. Some elements clearly do reach back to those times, but others are products of exile and of the loss of the Temple and the sacrificial system associated with it.

    Good point. I was actually gonna say something about primitivism always reflecting a contemporary bias about what the past was like, as witnessed eg. by innumerable "Back To The Bible" movements. But I didn't want to make my post any more long-winded than it already was.
  • I know two Christians from a Jewish background, the ladies who led the Church Seder suppers here. But those suppers were deliberately held when Passover is a month away from Maundy Thursday. They describe themselves as Christian converts from a Jewish heritage.

    I also am vaguely still in contact with a university friend who was the son of Jews escaping some pogrom or other and they were Yiddish speaking Jewish communists. His surname is the single syllable that the immigration official transliterated from their original given name. It took them forever to track down cousins who also survived but travelled elsewhere. They were non-observant Jews.

    I'd say both those groups have a Jewish heritage with all the difficulties accompanying that.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited February 17
    When I hung round in fundie-land, I remember that our prophetic schema (for some reason) required the mass conversion of the Jews as part of the End Times, and the existence of Messianic Jews was considered to be a forefruit of this forthcoming mass conversion. But I think if a Gentile had converted to Messianic Judaism, we'd have considered that to be cheating.

    (I don't think any real, live Messianic Jews ever strayed into our orbit. To my knowledge, the only Messianic Jews I've seen in real life were handing out leaflets outside Manchester Piccadilly station - one would assume that the majority of recipients would be Gentiles.)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »
    When I hung round in fundie-land, I remember that our prophetic schema (for some reason) required the mass conversion of the Jews as part of the End Times, and the existence of Messianic Jews was considered to be a forefruit of this forthcoming mass conversion.

    That part of pre-mil eschatology has never been very clear to me, ie. why the Jews need to convert, but I think it has something to do with
    Jesus originally being promised to the Jews. And there's at least one passage in Paul that seems to predict the Jews will convert.

    Plus, during the Tribulation, 144 000 male Jewish virgins are supposed to preach the gospel, though since all pre-Trib Christians will have been swept up in the Rapture, none of those 144 grand will have been MJs existing today. I'm guessing that the existence of current Messianic congregations is thought to provide some sort of inspiration.
  • But now I'm less sure about how many of these "pseudo-Jewish not-really-converts" there really are, since evidently some real Jewish converts are being falsely presented as "pseudo-Jewish" by some. It's all intensely confusing.
  • Ray SunshineRay Sunshine Shipmate
    edited February 17
    stetson wrote: »
    And I noticed that the Haarertz article I found, while also specifying that Stepakoff is Messianic, didn't offer any further explanation about what that means. I'm guessing that in Israel, there might be a greater awareness of MJs, due to debates over Jewish identity and whatnot?

    Yes, I think so, though I have only one small scrap of evidence to back it up. On a Catholic website, a few months ago, I started answering some questions about the Catholic Church and the New Testament that an Israeli was asking. When I posted a link to the BSI translation of the New Testament, now in liturgical use in most churches in Israel, including the Catholic Church, he said he didn’t want to go to that site, named Haktuvim, because it’s operated by the Bible Society in Israel (BSI) which — according to that poster — is largely in the hands of the Messianic Judaism movement. He made it clear that his single objection to the MJs is that they falsely claim to be Jewish. I have the impression that they are sufficiently well known among Israelis to need no further explanation than that.

    https://haktuvim.co.il/en/study/John.1.1

  • But the problem is that it's unclear what "falsely claim to be Jewish" actually means!!!
  • I didn't have the chance to ask him to explain. He only posted on the thread a few times, then disappeared. I assumed at the time that he meant Christians who have adopted a mock-Jewish form of worship, though in the light of what I have read on this thread here at the SoF, I now realise there's a possibility he meant the other thing, that any Jews who recognise Jesus as the Messiah are thereby forfeiting the right to continue being accepted as Jewish by other Jews. I have no way of telling.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited February 17
    stetson wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    When I hung round in fundie-land, I remember that our prophetic schema (for some reason) required the mass conversion of the Jews as part of the End Times, and the existence of Messianic Jews was considered to be a forefruit of this forthcoming mass conversion.

    That part of pre-mil eschatology has never been very clear to me, ie. why the Jews need to convert, but I think it has something to do with
    Jesus originally being promised to the Jews. And there's at least one passage in Paul that seems to predict the Jews will convert.

    I'm not sure there's much of a reason for any of it beyond 'because the prophecy says so, as interpreted by Darby and Schofield'. The verse from Paul is Romans 11:26, 'All Israel will be saved'.

    I'm also not sure where Gentile converts to Judaism fit into the schema, which tends to assume that Jews are inherently different from everyone else.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    But the problem is that it's unclear what "falsely claim to be Jewish" actually means!!!

    Found an interesting Haaretz article called "Aliyah with a cat, a dog, and Jesus", about the legal status of Messianic Jews in Israel. Apparently, converting to Messianic counts as changing your religion to Christianity, and will get you denied citizenship.

    Though it's not clear to me from the article how eg. Jewish atheists are treated when they apply for citizenship. I know Israeli law privileges Orthodox Judaism for some purposes, eg. recognizing marriages. Do they do that for citizenship as well?
  • But now I'm wondering whether the claims that "lots of Messianic Jews are not really Jewish at all" lack foundation? If converts are being essentially "shunned" by their former group, perhaps I've been led to believe that lots of Messianic Jews have no real Jewish ancestry, whereas in fact they do???

    Confused.tastic
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