That's actually no different from Shamima Begum, as far as I can see, except that Letts is accused of more serious crimes (actively fighting for Da'esh) than Begum (who supported Da'esh but as far as anyone knows never held a gun or fired it at anyone).
She's accused of stitching people into suicide vests in such a way that they couldn't be removed, and of being an active member of the IS morality police. (Link)
(Obvious caveat: of course the key word is 'accused'.)
I'm wondering if we couldn't look at it this way: Somebody's got to do something about her (moral responsibility), and the people with the greatest resources right now are the country she was born in. Which sort of sucks for the UK, but if anybody is going to undertake the project of ... rebuilding her? healing her? de-radicalizing her? it's only going to happen if there's money and people and law and so forth to make it happen. It's definitely not happening if she's left in a camp somewhere. And while a lot of people would be fine with that, I think we have a moral responsibility as human beings to clean up messes we have connections with. Even and especially unattractive messes.
I agree, she's ours. She cannot be rebuilt, healed, deradicalized. No chance. But she's still ours. To be watched. She can't be tagged and have to report to the police, for what offense? But she can be watched. For a hundred thousand a year. Or five. Along with a thousand others. Or ten.
No argument, the girl is “yours”. But how do YOU know she can’t be “ rebuilt, healed, deradicalized”?
Because it never happens. And even when it does, watch them.
One of the purposes of prison (should she be convicted of a crime with a custodial sentence) is rehabilitation. There are large numbers of examples of people who have left prison as reformed characters, who never commit another crime (even though the fact they've served their "debt to society" means they're forever disadvantaged, struggle to find good jobs etc). Is it a waste of time to try and rehabilitate prisoners? And, if not why should Shamima Begum be any different, assuming she serves time in prison?
And, outwith the prison system there are programmes that help people reform from a life of crime, shake free of dependencies (both chemical and relational) and deradicalise which are successful. Why shouldn't any of those work for her?
Of course, the longer she's kept in squalid conditions in a refugee camp the harder that's going to be. Having been kept there so long already, having lost a child who should have lived if she'd been repatriated in time, it's not unreasonable that resentment of British society has been growing.
I sometimes wonder what undocumented kids who've been damaged by the immigration and detention centers at our Mexican border may feel they need to do, in maybe 5-10 years from now.
:votive:
I sometimes wonder what undocumented kids who've been damaged by the immigration and detention centers at our Mexican border may feel they need to do, in maybe 5-10 years from now.
:votive:
Indeed, western nations seem to do a remarkably good job of creating environments which create entirely justified resentment against our nations, fertile ground for recruitment by criminal organisations (and, I include Da'esh among that group). Foreign policies that continue to hold other nations in poverty where they're people and resources can be exploited by western based multinationals, or support oppressive governments because "they're on our side" (which largely seems to mean they'll let our businesses rape their country). When people seek to flee violence, oppression, hunger etc then they're held in awful conditions in border camps by those who could give them refuge, and are often in part responsible for their need to move. Even our own citizens left to live in neighbourhoods that are barely better than slums, with no investment to raise these people from poverty and give them the hope of a better future.
Is it any wonder that some resort to criminal activity? It's a wonder that many more people don't hit back at us, we deserve it.
I sometimes wonder what undocumented kids who've been damaged by the immigration and detention centers at our Mexican border may feel they need to do, in maybe 5-10 years from now.
:votive:
Indeed, western nations seem to do a remarkably good job of creating environments which create entirely justified resentment against our nations, fertile ground for recruitment by criminal organisations (and, I include Da'esh among that group). Foreign policies that continue to hold other nations in poverty where they're people and resources can be exploited by western based multinationals, or support oppressive governments because "they're on our side" (which largely seems to mean they'll let our businesses rape their country). When people seek to flee violence, oppression, hunger etc then they're held in awful conditions in border camps by those who could give them refuge, and are often in part responsible for their need to move. Even our own citizens left to live in neighbourhoods that are barely better than slums, with no investment to raise these people from poverty and give them the hope of a better future.
Is it any wonder that some resort to criminal activity? It's a wonder that many more people don't hit back at us, we deserve it.
Closer to home ( for you British) if you go back nearly 2 centuries to occupied Ireland it may be clear why such a creature of the IRA came to flourish
Closer to home ( for you British) if you go back nearly 2 centuries to occupied Ireland it may be clear why such a creature of the IRA came to flourish
Two? More like nine. And it's a bit more complicated than 'occupied'.
Closer to home ( for you British) if you go back nearly 2 centuries to occupied Ireland it may be clear why such a creature of the IRA came to flourish
Two? More like nine. And it's a bit more complicated than 'occupied'.
Indeed. A little learning is a dangerous thing, as I know only too well.
I'm sometimes concerned that, if and when humans encounter beings on other planets, the humans will re-enact all of the long history of humans colonizing, abusing, enslaving, and killing other humans, taking their land, etc.
:votive:
I'm sometimes concerned that, if and when humans encounter beings on other planets, the humans will re-enact all of the long history of humans colonizing, abusing, enslaving, and killing other humans, taking their land, etc.
:votive:
It is devoutly to be hoped that, if and when that encounter happens, The Prime Directive will apply:
I'm sometimes concerned that, if and when humans encounter beings on other planets, the humans will re-enact all of the long history of humans colonizing, abusing, enslaving, and killing other humans, taking their land, etc.
:votive:
C.S. Lewis was certainly concerned about this. He wrote more than one essay about it. One of them included the line: "But let us thank God that we are still very far from travel to other worlds". He speculated that astronomical distances were God's "quarantine" to prevent the spread of sin.
Closer to home ( for you British) if you go back nearly 2 centuries to occupied Ireland it may be clear why such a creature of the IRA came to flourish
Two? More like nine. And it's a bit more complicated than 'occupied'.
Quite so,but to keep it simple I referred to the last 2 centuries as a descendant of both transportees and survivors of famine who ended up in the Antipodes. They might not have been republicans but the hatred of England was burning bright well into last century
'In September 2016, France opened its first deradicalization centre in Pontourny. The original plan was to have the Pontourny center the first of multiple in the country, however, the Pontourny centre turned out to be failure. Less than a year after it opened, the deradicalization centre in Pontourny had no residents.'
Bring her and then remaining 40 back I say. Ten million a year. Cheap at the price. Funded properly, with another zero or two, it should show what their r number is.
Also, and I want to emphasise this, her last child - who died in the refugee camp - was born a British citizen and *we did nothing* to protect that child.
Also, and I want to emphasise this, her last child - who died in the refugee camp - was born a British citizen and *we did nothing* to protect that child.
'In September 2016, France opened its first deradicalization centre in Pontourny. The original plan was to have the Pontourny center the first of multiple in the country, however, the Pontourny centre turned out to be failure. Less than a year after it opened, the deradicalization centre in Pontourny had no residents.'
Bring her and then remaining 40 back I say. Ten million a year. Cheap at the price. Funded properly, with another zero or two, it should show what their r number is.
Is this intel more or less reliable than the intelligence that got us into the Iraq war ?
If there is evidence to try her for war crimes, she should be tried for war crimes. What shouldn’t happen is that she be condemned and punished without evidence or trial.
Because this is war. Intel didn't get us in to the Iraq War. Blair did. He knew full well, as did I and countless others, that there were no WMDs. But I agree, bring her and the forty back. And watch her and her contacts as closely as her carotids for the rest of her life.
I'm sometimes concerned that, if and when humans encounter beings on other planets, the humans will re-enact all of the long history of humans colonizing, abusing, enslaving, and killing other humans, taking their land, etc.
:votive:
This, I suspect, is why God hasn't allowed us to run into aliens yet. I think we're in quarantine.
If there is evidence to try her for war crimes, she should be tried for war crimes. What shouldn’t happen is that she be condemned and punished without evidence or trial.
She is guilty of treason, by construction. She left the UK to travel to IS and give them material aid, at a time that the UK was engaged in active conflict with IS.
Jail her for life and be done with it.
It would be interesting, however, to ask how her case is generally viewed by sensible mainstream British Muslims. What does the man in the Clapham mosque think?
I'm sometimes concerned that, if and when humans encounter beings on other planets, the humans will re-enact all of the long history of humans colonizing, abusing, enslaving, and killing other humans, taking their land, etc.
:votive:
This, I suspect, is why God hasn't allowed us to run into aliens yet. I think we're in quarantine.
If there is evidence to try her for war crimes, she should be tried for war crimes. What shouldn’t happen is that she be condemned and punished without evidence or trial.
She is guilty of treason, by construction. She left the UK to travel to IS and give them material aid, at a time that the UK was engaged in active conflict with IS.
Jail her for life and be done with it.
It would be interesting, however, to ask how her case is generally viewed by sensible mainstream British Muslims. What does the man in the Clapham mosque think?
If there is evidence to try her for war crimes, she should be tried for war crimes. What shouldn’t happen is that she be condemned and punished without evidence or trial.
She is guilty of treason, by construction. She left the UK to travel to IS and give them material aid, at a time that the UK was engaged in active conflict with IS.
Jail her for life and be done with it.
It would be interesting, however, to ask how her case is generally viewed by sensible mainstream British Muslims. What does the man in the Clapham mosque think?
He will think why did the US, UK, Australia and Poland destroy Iraq for no reason and thus destabilize Syria, putting such pressure on their Sunni populations that they reacted?
Comments
Yes, that's so, but why should she be singled out?
I guess that might be true but it's not a good enough reason.
Yes, I see, and agree.
Agreed.
Aye, glad you agree.
She's accused of stitching people into suicide vests in such a way that they couldn't be removed, and of being an active member of the IS morality police. (Link)
(Obvious caveat: of course the key word is 'accused'.)
Because it never happens. And even when it does, watch them.
I seem to recall something about 7 and 70 times 7
Forgiveness and stupidity are two entirely different things. She will be deradicalized in the resurrection.
Until then, £100,000 a year for life.
Yeaaaah. As Ronnie Reagan said, trust, but verify. £100,000 a year for life.
Riiiiight. So you obviously do. What do you know that He can do in the ruined mind of Shamima Begum this side of the resurrection?
And, outwith the prison system there are programmes that help people reform from a life of crime, shake free of dependencies (both chemical and relational) and deradicalise which are successful. Why shouldn't any of those work for her?
Of course, the longer she's kept in squalid conditions in a refugee camp the harder that's going to be. Having been kept there so long already, having lost a child who should have lived if she'd been repatriated in time, it's not unreasonable that resentment of British society has been growing.
However for you to describe Shamima Begum’s mind as “ruined” implies more knowledge than you have and limited insight
:votive:
Is it any wonder that some resort to criminal activity? It's a wonder that many more people don't hit back at us, we deserve it.
You don’t say
Closer to home ( for you British) if you go back nearly 2 centuries to occupied Ireland it may be clear why such a creature of the IRA came to flourish
Two? More like nine. And it's a bit more complicated than 'occupied'.
Indeed. A little learning is a dangerous thing, as I know only too well.
:votive:
It is devoutly to be hoped that, if and when that encounter happens, The Prime Directive will apply:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive
C.S. Lewis was certainly concerned about this. He wrote more than one essay about it. One of them included the line: "But let us thank God that we are still very far from travel to other worlds". He speculated that astronomical distances were God's "quarantine" to prevent the spread of sin.
O I think they did, sometimes...didn't they?
Point taken, of course.
Quite so,but to keep it simple I referred to the last 2 centuries as a descendant of both transportees and survivors of famine who ended up in the Antipodes. They might not have been republicans but the hatred of England was burning bright well into last century
And you know this how?
Sorry? You sew people in to tamper proof suicide vests as an unrepentant active terrorizer of terrorists and that doesn't ruin your mind?
How's that Dafyd? It certainly isn't a magic deradicalizer. Not this side of death or a proper miracle. Like the one that de/reconstructed Paul.
I'm not sure I'd ever quote either as good evidence of anything, apart from the adage 'the fool and his money are easily parted'.
Intel. As similarly linked previously.
'In September 2016, France opened its first deradicalization centre in Pontourny. The original plan was to have the Pontourny center the first of multiple in the country, however, the Pontourny centre turned out to be failure. Less than a year after it opened, the deradicalization centre in Pontourny had no residents.'
Bring her and then remaining 40 back I say. Ten million a year. Cheap at the price. Funded properly, with another zero or two, it should show what their r number is.
Like what?
Repatriate them.
Is this intel more or less reliable than the intelligence that got us into the Iraq war ?
If there is evidence to try her for war crimes, she should be tried for war crimes. What shouldn’t happen is that she be condemned and punished without evidence or trial.
This, I suspect, is why God hasn't allowed us to run into aliens yet. I think we're in quarantine.
She is guilty of treason, by construction. She left the UK to travel to IS and give them material aid, at a time that the UK was engaged in active conflict with IS.
Jail her for life and be done with it.
It would be interesting, however, to ask how her case is generally viewed by sensible mainstream British Muslims. What does the man in the Clapham mosque think?
It's got nowt ter do wi' God.
She was a trafficked child.
He will think why did the US, UK, Australia and Poland destroy Iraq for no reason and thus destabilize Syria, putting such pressure on their Sunni populations that they reacted?