Looks like rural UK for us. Unfashionable area as it's the only place we can afford. Near to some family at least.
Rural Anglicanism doesn't appeal (been there, done that) bear the scars. However we have a strong calling/belief to local and the Kingdom where we are? Whither EM?
Non-conformism isn't entirely dead in rural areas of the UK. A former home (small mill village) of mine in W Yorks has lost its parish church but retains a baptist congregation.
My Lancastrian dad reckoned that in t'North only rich folks were CofE. Regular folk would be "Chapel".
Looks like rural UK for us. Unfashionable area as it's the only place we can afford. Near to some family at least.
Rural Anglicanism doesn't appeal (been there, done that) bear the scars. However we have a strong calling/belief to local and the Kingdom where we are? Whither EM?
Non-conformism isn't entirely dead in rural areas of the UK. A former home (small mill village) of mine in W Yorks has lost its parish church but retains a baptist congregation.
My Lancastrian dad reckoned that in t'North only rich folks were CofE. Regular folk would be "Chapel".
When I lived there the CofE folk, including the OLM priest, were as skint as anyone else (though the parish church had absorbed a few folk from the Methodist church that closed). "Chapel or church" belongs to another era entirely.
Why is that an example of the guiding of the Spirit? It just looks like stuff happening to me.
I have to agree.
I am reminded of the line in the movie The Ruling Class. "I know I'm God, because every time I pray I get the strongest feeling that I am talking to myself."
Looks like rural UK for us. Unfashionable area as it's the only place we can afford. Near to some family at least.
Rural Anglicanism doesn't appeal (been there, done that) bear the scars. However we have a strong calling/belief to local and the Kingdom where we are? Whither EM?
Non-conformism isn't entirely dead in rural areas of the UK. A former home (small mill village) of mine in W Yorks has lost its parish church but retains a baptist congregation.
My Lancastrian dad reckoned that in t'North only rich folks were CofE. Regular folk would be "Chapel".
When I lived there the CofE folk, including the OLM priest, were as skint as anyone else (though the parish church had absorbed a few folk from the Methodist church that closed). "Chapel or church" belongs to another era entirely.
Why is that an example of the guiding of the Spirit? It just looks like stuff happening to me.
That's what my parents thought it was. And reported it as. And they weren't extreme examples of that sort of thinking.
For some people the 'calling' of God is to find God - or define the Spirit's guidance - in the 'stuff' whatever the stuff happens to be. In other words, finding God at the centre of the experience, rather than insisting that God's job is about creating the experience around oneself.
I've always felt slightly wary of people who have very specifically, defined calls, maybe because of voices, or visions or prophecies etc. Although of course Peter and Paul and other apostles felt at times very specifically defined calls (ie, to witness to this group of people, avoid that group of people, travel here, don't travel there etc). So that probably says more about how my faith works than how God works.
As an individual, I've just been a door-pusher and the one that opens is the one I go through. That it might not be God who kept the other ones closed, but accident, random stuff, or prejudice doesn't signify. God's still God. He'll still be with me on the journey.
In terms of 'church', the call is more predictable and easier to discern; as revealed by Christ's words in the gospel messages. There might be many different ways of fulfilling that call, naturally. And just as individual leaders have natural preferences and abilities, so a congregation might have different things to offer their communities, which they could discern or develop.
@Raptor Eye I am a moderate and believe the CofE should be a broad church, giving space for those who would like to gather the crumbs from under the table and all views. But I burnt out and gave up. And I haven't gone back, because every time I think about it, the CofE hierarchy does something else that I do not want to support. Currently I do not want to sign up to a church that keeps kicking the conversation about homosexuality down the road. I have too many gay Christian friends.
I struggled on for years in a church where I was made to feel unwelcome socially, unless I was providing a service, and boy, did I provide the services. I ran the toddler church for 3 years, with someone attending trying to push it into a far more interpreted version of my preferred tell them Bible stories, give them a few songs and a fun linked activity and leave them and their families to interpret them, then we can remain ecumenical and there for the whole CofE community. One of the times I really really felt the presence of God, was the day I had to cancel in midwinter when we had no heating as the boiler had failed. I phoned round all the parents to cancel with the person who was pushing me to change the services last on the list, to find she'd invited someone to tell me how to do it better to come along. She still tried to pressurise me to run somewhere else. Sadly, I'd felt called to phone her last and it was all too late. (It wasn't something I ever said to her.)
I set up regular Sunday evening services in response to complaints about inconsistencies with the monthly choral evensong and occasional other evening services, ensuring the church was open, every Sunday evening. And that is still happening now. We didn't always get huge numbers, but we had a chance to experiment, and were open for those searching somewhere quiet to pray - all too often. My usual services were evening or labyrinth prayer sessions - one had the church open and the labyrinth out, the other was the Celebrating Common Prayer service as regular monthly services, with some more interesting stuff occasionally, like a prayer walk in Fairtrade fortnight, or a Café church another year. I heard some very sad stories of people leaving a family member in the local the hospice and searching for an open church.
I was told there was no space for me in Lent groups or at other small groups, unless I led them. Possibly because I refused to use the "correct" NIV, which isn't actually on the CofE list, and preferred to read several different Bibles to compare, admittedly including the NJB. And for the "learning opportunities" run by the con-evo grouping, the clergy pushed me to speak out with a moderate liberal view so that the challenges to the more rigid views being presented came from more than just them. Others just didn't attend.
I set up and ran Traidcraft stall for years - was a Fair Trader for nearly 15 years, was working to set up Fairtrade status in the town when a couple of shops closed and made us ineligible. Ran the church website for a decade with a Twitter account on the side, plus A Church Near You for four churches and a smaller website for another church.
I eventually found that no, there was no place for me, and no real place to go locally, although I could travel somewhere else, but when the CofE keeps doing things to which I cry, not in my name, then travelling elsewhere would be supporting an institution that I am unconvinced I should be continue to support.
And I'm with the others saying, no, we're not sure there is a place for us in the CofE as it exists locally now. I really dithered about ticking the Christian box on the census this time. If I'm still alive for the next one, I can see me ticking none.
It sounds as if what you achieved was wonderful, but exhausting.
I can see how easy it is to burn ourselves out, especially if we don’t feel as if our contributions are valued by others. In the same way as God closes as well as opening the doors of churches, there are some tasks we need to drop when we take up others, and sometimes we feel as if we have been coerced into taking something on which has pushed a round peg into a square hole. There are many frustrations.
As to our illustrious leaders causing us grief, I very nearly walked out when synod didn’t pass the motion allowing for women to be bishops, when it was clear to me that God was calling women into this role. Patience isn’t easy, and we don’t want to be seen to condone views we don’t agree with, but in the end I love and trust in God, and I see it as incumbent upon me to carry on sharing that love even with those who don’t give anything in return - sometimes quite the opposite - and to take any opportunity to speak out calmly, even when others react hot-headedly.
I want to worship God with others, and I’m sure that is what God wants of me again once the church I attend starts offering services again. I have been able to worship at home in the meantime, using resources provided by the various churches including the C of E. Our relationship with God continues regardless.
Thank you for your many comments on this issue about God and the 'Church' and our membership or not of what we have seen in the past perhaps as 'the Church'
Raptor eye tells us that it 'was clear to me (Raptor Eye) that God was calling women into this role (episcopate)' I am easily able to believe that this was clear to Raptor eye, but surely we have to accept that it may have been equally clear to some others that God was not calling women to the episcopate.
It is difficult often for us to accept that other people sometimes see things differently and can be just as heartbroken if things do not go their way.
This is part of life and to me we should as Christians concentrate on what we share rather than on what divides us.
Good for Raptor eye to conclude by saying 'Our relationship with God continues regardless.'
This is part of life and to me we should as Christians concentrate on what we share rather than on what divides us.
Good for Raptor eye to conclude by saying 'Our relationship with God continues regardless.'
I very much agree with both.
@ExclamationMark , if you like preaching (should I say, if preaching is one of the things you might miss as a retired minister), I am pretty certain that a Methodist church would welcome you onto the circuit plan - and in a rural area, the ordained, un-retired minsters will be stretched very very thinly. But if you prefer pastoral work, I guess that never, ever goes away...
This is part of life and to me we should as Christians concentrate on what we share rather than on what divides us.
Good for Raptor eye to conclude by saying 'Our relationship with God continues regardless.'
I very much agree with both.
@ExclamationMark , if you like preaching (should I say, if preaching is one of the things you might miss as a retired minister), I am pretty certain that a Methodist church would welcome you onto the circuit plan - and in a rural area, the ordained, un-retired minsters will be stretched very very thinly. But if you prefer pastoral work, I guess that never, ever goes away...
I'm told that I'm a Pastor/Teacher but also a kind of bringer togetherer/strategist. I tend to follow that lead.
Rural Methodism might be a good 'fit' as mark_in_manchester suggests.
My sister-in-law and brother-in-law (if I can still call them that since my wife died) have settled very happily into a Methodist church, somewhat to their surprise initially. They do wish there were more Wesleyan hymns and find some of the sermons a bit thin and after dinner speech-y but at least with a circuit system there's a variety of visiting preachers.
On the 'God called me to do this, that or the other' thing, sorry - I know Raptor Eye means well and it can be a form of shorthand - but in my experience it can cover a multitude of sins.
It's often shorthand at a ministerial / clergy level for: 'Look, this hasn't worked out right? So I've found a job somewhere else but want to put a more spiritual sounding spin on it.'
One of the most painful yet refreshing things I've ever seen in church life was when a Baptist minister preached his last sermon before moving on and openly and directly addressed the issues that had caused him to do so.
Of course, there were two sides to it but having previously been involved with the restorationist thing where conflicts or failings were often covered up or spiritualised away, the raw honesty of it was impressive.
I'm not saying that people don't sense some kind of 'calling' but generally I suspect it's mostly about working things out where we are and with whatever comes to hand.
You had to have a short memory to be involved with full on charismatic evangelicalism or develop as God seemed to change his mind every five minutes with a 'new thing' around every corner.
Rural Methodism might be a good 'fit' as mark_in_manchester suggests.
My sister-in-law and brother-in-law (if I can still call them that since my wife died) have settled very happily into a Methodist church, somewhat to their surprise initially. They do wish there were more Wesleyan hymns and find some of the sermons a bit thin and after dinner speech-y but at least with a circuit system there's a variety of visiting preachers.
On the 'God called me to do this, that or the other' thing, sorry - I know Raptor Eye means well and it can be a form of shorthand - but in my experience it can cover a multitude of sins.
It's often shorthand at a ministerial / clergy level for: 'Look, this hasn't worked out right? So I've found a job somewhere else but want to put a more spiritual sounding spin on it.'
One of the most painful yet refreshing things I've ever seen in church life was when a Baptist minister preached his last sermon before moving on and openly and directly addressed the issues that had caused him to do so.
Of course, there were two sides to it but having previously been involved with the restorationist thing where conflicts or failings were often covered up or spiritualised away, the raw honesty of it was impressive.
I'm not saying that people don't sense some kind of 'calling' but generally I suspect it's mostly about working things out where we are and with whatever comes to hand.
You had to have a short memory to be involved with full on charismatic evangelicalism or develop as God seemed to change his mind every five minutes with a 'new thing' around every corner.
True that. A real "new thing" would have been someone not starting a "prophecy" with "'Behold', says the LORD, 'I do a new thing'"
The 'new thing' was then conveniently forgotten about when it failed to deliver, only to be followed by yet another 'new thing' that in turn ...
How many people still remember that "Renewal leads to Restoration which will bring in Revival"? I can't remember how many times I heard the prophetic voice declare that Revival was just about to happen.
The 'new thing' was then conveniently forgotten about when it failed to deliver, only to be followed by yet another 'new thing' that in turn ...
How many people still remember that "Renewal leads to Restoration which will bring in Revival"? I can't remember how many times I heard the prophetic voice declare that Revival was just about to happen.
Didn't hear that particular formulation but, yes, always just about to happen.
since these reveal whether Christianity is just Churchianity.
I don't think I agree with that formulation. Christianity is a communal faith. It is sustained by and through God's action in a Christian community. There have always been those who retreated from the world for a time to deepen their experience of God, but they were still connected to a community of faith (e.g. St Herbert lived alone on an island in Cumbria, but still made an annual journey to make his confession and receive communion from St Cuthbert). The vast, vast majority of Christians come to faith through the church and rely on the church to sustain it. Faith that withers when not nurtured by the church isn't "churchianity", it's normal Christianity for everyone except a handful to whom God has given particular gifts.
since these reveal whether Christianity is just Churchianity.
I don't think I agree with that formulation. Christianity is a communal faith. It is sustained by and through God's action in a Christian community. There have always been those who retreated from the world for a time to deepen their experience of God, but they were still connected to a community of faith (e.g. St Herbert lived alone on an island in Cumbria, but still made an annual journey to make his confession and receive communion from St Cuthbert). The vast, vast majority of Christians come to faith through the church and rely on the church to sustain it. Faith that withers when not nurtured by the church isn't "churchianity", it's normal Christianity for everyone except a handful to whom God has given particular gifts.
I agree with this - though as I mentioned, sometimes 'church' is all giving, and we need to 'take' from somewhere else.
Meanwhile, if you (pl) don't much like 'New Things', might I again commend The Methodist Church
(Our 'new-ish things' are, indeed Gamaliel, sermons which can feel a bit like Guardian opinion pieces, and hymns which feel like something you might sing to conclude a Labour party conference. But I have a magic talisman against this stuff - membership of an elderly black congregation who Don't Much Like That Kind of Thing, and whose preferences most of the wokiest woke local preachers are keen to respect. Wa-hey, roll out the Bible, Wesley, and Watts ).
I think I could write a contemporary Methodist hymn.
'Lord, we are so complacent and middle-class,
Please kick us up the ass,
So we can sing lines that do not scan,
And love our fellow man -
Although we can't sing that because it's gender exclusive,
Help us be more inclusive
And not so completely useless
And salve our aching conscience
By attending the Labour Party Conference.'
(Not that I have an issue with the Labour Party Conference, I'm sure it's very good, nor sentiments around inclusivity but I don't really want to sing hymns telling God how complacent, middle class and privileged I am because he knows that already)
When I lived there the CofE folk, including the OLM priest, were as skint as anyone else (though the parish church had absorbed a few folk from the Methodist church that closed). "Chapel or church" belongs to another era entirely.
I don't think that's so very unfair. @Gamma Gamaliel. I think what gets me about it, is that (to parody another kind of music entirely, this time Barry White - or perhaps more pertinently Al Green)
'...oooohhh, baby, I just can't make it, on my own...'
I'm nowhere near good enough to be good just by earnestness, which is why I am at church.
To (again) big up Methodism despite all this, I should say that although we are blessed, genuinely, with an excellent older female minister at the moment, this kind of Guardian-reader service (and singing) seems most popular around here with a certain kind of older, female, local preacher. There are fewer of those these days, and the younger ones (most of whom are not from the UK, in our patch) are, in their very different ways, much better.
To anyone who is thinking 'so, smart boy, why aren't you stepping forward to lead services if you're so clever?' I suppose I would say 'I was hoping no-one would say that out loud; is it OK if I pray about it, or is that a transparent ruse to kick this into the long grass?'.
If you're not going to sing things God knows already aren't you buggered anyway, what with omniscience and all that?
Of course.
'Before a word is on my tongue, you know it already ...'
I think mark_in_manchester gets my drift and nails it.
I'm a woolly liberal Guardian reader type but I don't want to make a Sunday service out of my weekend pottering about the garden and reading habits.
Any more than I would want to attend a service where they sang:
'Glory, glory, glory
I'm so glad to be a Tory.'
Of course, whether covertly or openly, consciously or otherwise, whatever we do and however we do it is going to express who and what we are in ideological and socio-economic terms.
We are all contextualised, man ...
Wringing my hands and bemoaning the fact that I'm white, middle-aged and middle-class doesn't alter that fact. It may make a difference if it causes me to change my lifestyle and attitudes in some way and I suppose singing the sorts of songs I've parodied regularly enough could effect that to some extent.
It could also give me a false impression that I'm on the right track as it were, when all I'm actually doing is virtue-signalling and making myself feel better.
A bit like those Victorians who warbled away in church each Sunday and ignored the 'undeserving poor'.
Anyhow - that's getting away from the point of what alternatives there might be for disillusioned Anglicans or for retiring ministers like ExclamationMark who are moving to an unfashionable rural area.
As far as Methodism goes, I fluctuate between thinking its had its day on the one hand and that it has some spark about it that may yet surprise and stimulate the rest of us.
We have this hymn by Marty Haugen "All are welcome in this place" which for me is the epitome of smug self-delusion.
I hate it with a burning passion.
I don't read it that way. The phrasing is about intent and aspiration, not a claim of present reality. It's a challenge to us to compare the current reality of our church with the model offered by the hymn. Every verse starts "Let us..." not "We have [already]...".
Edit: language about where we would like to be rather than where we are is not uncommon in hymns.
There is always a suggestion, explicitly or implicitly, that those who avail themselves of the welcome will want to adapt their life to the model proposed by Jesus.
Whilst a murderer would or should be made welcome, he or she should be ready to adapt his way of life, such as in the story of Blessed Jacques Fesch.
But the chorus is
"All are welcome,
all are welcome,
all are welcome in this place."
I equally loathe it with a passion for similar reasons, those who fondly and often mistakenly believe they are welcoming swell with pride as they sing it.
@ExclamationMark - but the CofE has traditionally been a broad church, albeit narrowing fast, and statements of certainty exclude different groupings sheltering under that umbrella, driving them out into where? That's what this thread is asking. We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
I am due to retire soon. I have to move, What fellowship will I join? How will I adapt as well as moving?
Good question.
I don't know how it works with retired nonconformist ministers but from what I've observed with retired Anglican clergy and have had explained by a 'son of the manse', they often find it hard to settle once they are out of the saddle.
This thread has broadened out from the OP where I had a particular constituency in mind.
Which is probably only right and proper as the principles apply in different contexts even if the details or pinch-points vary.
Yes. My Dad was a retired non-conformist minister. He rarely went to Church after properly retiring. (Many ministers still do a lot of services after retiring so his ‘proper’ retirement was years after his official retirement). To the extent that he and Mum bought a mobile home on the coast and spent every weekend there so that questions weren’t asked!
We have this hymn by Marty Haugen "All are welcome in this place" which for me is the epitome of smug self-delusion.
I hate it with a burning passion.
I don't read it that way. The phrasing is about intent and aspiration, not a claim of present reality. It's a challenge to us to compare the current reality of our church with the model offered by the hymn. Every verse starts "Let us..." not "We have [already]...".
Edit: language about where we would like to be rather than where we are is not uncommon in hymns.
I take that point, but "All should be welcome" is closer to the lived reality.
I generally sing "Most aren't welcome ..." or "Some are welcome .... " just for a bit of balance.
We have this hymn by Marty Haugen "All are welcome in this place" which for me is the epitome of smug self-delusion.
I hate it with a burning passion.
I agree, both as to smug self-delusion and to my dislike for that song. Every time I hear it, I can't help assuming that those singing may not admit this to themselves but know perfectly well who they put in the human sub-category they really want to welcome, and who isn't in it, even if their selection is different from 'them up the road's'.
We all like to say we welcome everyone. I do rather wonder whether it even ought to be true. Jesus and the prophets before him were quite abrasive with some people.
From time to time, and when I'm feeling really irritated, I pluck up the courage to ask 'do you really mean that?' People always say 'of course'. If you then ask 'so that includes loan-sharks does it?' deliberately choosing a category whom nobody likes because they unthinkingly assume that means 'somebody else'. Back comes the answer, 'well yes of course; we'd hope they'd be converted by the gospel and change their ways'.
Yebbut, that isn't what they mean by 'all are welcome' applied to whichever human sub-categories they think they are welcoming than other people aren't.
We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
I think this is what I concluded. Cathedrals are odd places anyway, because they apply a very think layer of varnish to everything and everyone. If one goes often enough, one suddenly finds that one is totally gummed up. That's what I found anyway - it felt impossibly anxiety-inducing to do almost anything except sit there and smile. Is that the desired effect, or just an effect of a generalised culture of anxiety?
We have this hymn by Marty Haugen "All are welcome in this place" which for me is the epitome of smug self-delusion.
I hate it with a burning passion.
I agree, both as to smug self-delusion and to my dislike for that song. Every time I hear it, I can't help assuming that those singing may not admit this to themselves but know perfectly well who they put in the human sub-category they really want to welcome, and who isn't in it, even if their selection is different from 'them up the road's'.
We all like to say we welcome everyone. I do rather wonder whether it even ought to be true. Jesus and the prophets before him were quite abrasive with some people.
From time to time, and when I'm feeling really irritated, I pluck up the courage to ask 'do you really mean that?' People always say 'of course'. If you then ask 'so that includes loan-sharks does it?' deliberately choosing a category whom nobody likes because they unthinkingly assume that means 'somebody else'. Back comes the answer, 'well yes of course; we'd hope they'd be converted by the gospel and change their ways'.
Yebbut, that isn't what they mean by 'all are welcome' applied to whichever human sub-categories they think they are welcoming than other people aren't.
My kids and I are laughing about this. We had to lead this (in our sub-zoom phone-in-teleconference-church) a couple of weeks ago, and none of us liked it very much!
There is always a suggestion, explicitly or implicitly, that those who avail themselves of the welcome will want to adapt their life to the model proposed by Jesus.
Whilst a murderer would or should be made welcome, he or she should be ready to adapt his way of life, such as in the story of Blessed Jacques Fesch.
(A tangent, but I read his, very moving, story. I am a guest at a local RC men's group who organised some presentations on unusual men of faith for an away day. I picked / was allocated St Benedict Joseph Labre! It was a great day.)
We all like to say we welcome everyone. I do rather wonder whether it even ought to be true. Jesus and the prophets before him were quite abrasive with some people. . . .
From time to time, and when I'm feeling really irritated, I pluck up the courage to ask 'do you really mean that?' People always say 'of course'. If you then ask 'so that includes loan-sharks does it?' deliberately choosing a category whom nobody likes because they unthinkingly assume that means 'somebody else'. Back comes the answer, 'well yes of course; we'd hope they'd be converted by the gospel and change their ways'.
Well, the Pharisees did complain that Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors. It seems to me that Jesus’s abrasiveness was primarily directed at those who suggested that some weren’t welcome.
We don’t sing this hymn often, and we’re a congregation very much focused right now on what it means to be welcoming to the “outcast and stranger” the hymn speaks of. When we do sing it, it’d generally I think be after a sermon dealing Jesus’s attitude of welcome, so I think it’d be framed in a context of “what we’re called to be” more than “what we’ve accomplished.” For what it’s worth, that hymn was written for the specific occasion of the dedication of a church, hence the first lines of each verse being “Let us build a place.”
I can see how the refrain could be sung with unwarranted pride. Frankly, lots of hymns can be sung that way. But I’m with @Arethosemyfeet. I hear even the refrain as aspirational, or even as a challenge: Whether we like it or not, whether it makes us comfortable or not, the church belongs to Jesus, and he welcomes all.
Jesus associating with tax-collectors rather complicates the oversimplified narrative sometimes promoted by Social Gospel and liberation theology adherents. You know the drill: "Jesus was ALWAYS on the side of the weak and dispossessed, against the powerful."
Because those tax-collectors, while certainly pariahs in their own community, were also willing and compensated collaborators with the Roman Empire, in its day the ultimate gang of power-hungry bastards.
The equivalent today might be a Black guy who becomes a lower-ranked member of the white-supremacist police department that terrorizes his own community. But I don't think that's who progressive theologians want us to identify with when they say "Jesus ate with outcasts."
But the chorus is
"All are welcome,
all are welcome,
all are welcome in this place."
I equally loathe it with a passion for similar reasons, those who fondly and often mistakenly believe they are welcoming swell with pride as they sing it.
@ExclamationMark - but the CofE has traditionally been a broad church, albeit narrowing fast, and statements of certainty exclude different groupings sheltering under that umbrella, driving them out into where? That's what this thread is asking. We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
A cathedral is extremely inaccessible to me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that I can never see it as a local church as well as the underused wealth of the place.
Perhaps it's time to be a spiritual pilgrim or even plant a church!
@ExclamationMark - but the CofE has traditionally been a broad church, albeit narrowing fast, and statements of certainty exclude different groupings sheltering under that umbrella, driving them out into where? That's what this thread is asking. We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
A cathedral is extremely inaccessible to me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that I can never see it as a local church as well as the underused wealth of the place.
Perhaps it's time to be a spiritual pilgrim or even plant a church!
In defence of some cathedrals (well, ours), they can also take on the role of *local church*, albeit perhaps writ larger than some.
Ours has (or had, pre-Covid) a large and flourishing Sunday School (they don't call it that, but YSWIM) comprised mostly of families from the fairly affluent immediate area.
I attended the Cathedral regularly (Sundays and major Holydays) for about 18 months before moving on - not for any unpleasant reason, but simply because I became involved in the life of a small parish elsewhere in the town. I now miss the ordered Anglican liturgy, and the excellent music (congregational, as well as choral!)...
Underused wealth? Not quite sure what you mean by that - perhaps you could unpack?
Part of me thinks that as soon as any church starts singing, 'All are welcome in this place' or similar tosh then even though they might be the most welcoming church in Christendom they have suddenly spoiled it for themselves by becoming self-conscious about it.
Time for a tangent, methinks but whilst I can see a place for hymns about the Church or about 'us' - glorious things of thee are spoken ...' - I don't much like them.
One of the things I like about Orthodox and other traditional liturgies is how Godward they are.
I don't really like singing about me and what my intentions are.
'Lord we want to ...'
Well just do it then.
On the wealth of cathedrals, I suspect EM is referring to how much they cost to maintain among other things.
I don't know what Thunderbunk means about 'varnish'. I've not actually attended many cathedral services so I suppose that's why the few I have attended have stuck in my mind. Great music, impressive setting and sermons that treat you like an adult.
Perhaps if I were able to attend them more regularly I'd find the sticky varnish that gums things up of which Thunderbunk speaks.
@ExclamationMark - but the CofE has traditionally been a broad church, albeit narrowing fast, and statements of certainty exclude different groupings sheltering under that umbrella, driving them out into where? That's what this thread is asking. We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
A cathedral is extremely inaccessible to me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that I can never see it as a local church as well as the underused wealth of the place.
Perhaps it's time to be a spiritual pilgrim or even plant a church!
@ExclamationMark I wasn't suggesting that you should attend a cathedral, I was challenging your statement here which I now realise is on another thread, but is relevant as the LLF debate is causing some of the debate as to where is a suitable church:
Wrong way round. The nation needs to reclaim its loyalty of/in who Christ asks of us.
The CofE in its arrogance doesn't - perhaps cannot - see that this endless circle of prevarication is losing not only its own constituency but, because every church is perceived as being CofE, we are all suffering from their inability to make up their mind.
Who in their right mind would want to join a church that doesn't know what it believes and, on the few occasions that it does give a lead, is led by a group of self entitled and self important public school types?
Part of me thinks that as soon as any church starts singing, 'All are welcome in this place' or similar tosh then even though they might be the most welcoming church in Christendom they have suddenly spoiled it for themselves by becoming self-conscious about it.
I wouldn’t deny that, but as I said similar criticisms could be said of many hymns. Context matters.
A cathedral is extremely inaccessible to me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that I can never see it as a local church as well as the underused wealth of the place.
I know you've had bad experiences of the CofE, ExclamationMark and I don't doubt that as a Baptist minister you've received short shrift from some up-themselves Anglican clergy.
I also get the distinct impression that you have a visceral aversion to public schoolboys, the royal family and fol de rol, but steady on ...
I'm sure if you set up your own independent church (conventical ) or planted a new Baptist church it would all be wonderful and marvelous and beyond reproach.
On the Iwerne thing, I agree with you that there is something additionally and especially distasteful about it given its proximity to the corridors of power and I'm not a fan of the public school system either - even though I have plenty of friends who went to them.
There is a particularly problematic context to all this, given the CofE's position as the Established Church and so on. Granted.
But you seem to expecting a uniformity of belief and practice across the Anglican spectrum when that doesn't exist anywhere else within Protestantism* either from what I can see - it's certainly not there among Baptists.
Why should anyone trust the Baptists when individual congregations can believe what they like and there is no overall consensus?
That's a rhetorical question, of course.
*And yes, I know there are those who'd argue that the CofE isn't Protestant. The Iwerne-ites wouldn't of course.
Aside from the abuses involved (which are obviously inexcusable), is there a place for the church to seek to convert people who are likely to occupy positions of power and influence in the future, in the hope that their faith would guide their use of power? That's obviously a long way from what actually happened in terms of packing the hierarchy via the old boys network but I wonder if there is a place for saying "we can't just now fix the fact that the country's leaders are drawn from this narrow pool, so we should seek to ensure that they lead well". I suppose part of the problem is that if you succeed in moulding these better leaders you reduce the chances of them occupying leadership positions.
Comments
My Lancastrian dad reckoned that in t'North only rich folks were CofE. Regular folk would be "Chapel".
When I lived there the CofE folk, including the OLM priest, were as skint as anyone else (though the parish church had absorbed a few folk from the Methodist church that closed). "Chapel or church" belongs to another era entirely.
I have to agree.
I am reminded of the line in the movie The Ruling Class. "I know I'm God, because every time I pray I get the strongest feeling that I am talking to myself."
Well, he was talking about the 1950s.
That's what my parents thought it was. And reported it as. And they weren't extreme examples of that sort of thinking.
For some people the 'calling' of God is to find God - or define the Spirit's guidance - in the 'stuff' whatever the stuff happens to be. In other words, finding God at the centre of the experience, rather than insisting that God's job is about creating the experience around oneself.
I've always felt slightly wary of people who have very specifically, defined calls, maybe because of voices, or visions or prophecies etc. Although of course Peter and Paul and other apostles felt at times very specifically defined calls (ie, to witness to this group of people, avoid that group of people, travel here, don't travel there etc). So that probably says more about how my faith works than how God works.
As an individual, I've just been a door-pusher and the one that opens is the one I go through. That it might not be God who kept the other ones closed, but accident, random stuff, or prejudice doesn't signify. God's still God. He'll still be with me on the journey.
In terms of 'church', the call is more predictable and easier to discern; as revealed by Christ's words in the gospel messages. There might be many different ways of fulfilling that call, naturally. And just as individual leaders have natural preferences and abilities, so a congregation might have different things to offer their communities, which they could discern or develop.
Thank you for all you have shared here @Curiosity killed
It sounds as if what you achieved was wonderful, but exhausting.
I can see how easy it is to burn ourselves out, especially if we don’t feel as if our contributions are valued by others. In the same way as God closes as well as opening the doors of churches, there are some tasks we need to drop when we take up others, and sometimes we feel as if we have been coerced into taking something on which has pushed a round peg into a square hole. There are many frustrations.
As to our illustrious leaders causing us grief, I very nearly walked out when synod didn’t pass the motion allowing for women to be bishops, when it was clear to me that God was calling women into this role. Patience isn’t easy, and we don’t want to be seen to condone views we don’t agree with, but in the end I love and trust in God, and I see it as incumbent upon me to carry on sharing that love even with those who don’t give anything in return - sometimes quite the opposite - and to take any opportunity to speak out calmly, even when others react hot-headedly.
I want to worship God with others, and I’m sure that is what God wants of me again once the church I attend starts offering services again. I have been able to worship at home in the meantime, using resources provided by the various churches including the C of E. Our relationship with God continues regardless.
Raptor eye tells us that it 'was clear to me (Raptor Eye) that God was calling women into this role (episcopate)' I am easily able to believe that this was clear to Raptor eye, but surely we have to accept that it may have been equally clear to some others that God was not calling women to the episcopate.
It is difficult often for us to accept that other people sometimes see things differently and can be just as heartbroken if things do not go their way.
This is part of life and to me we should as Christians concentrate on what we share rather than on what divides us.
Good for Raptor eye to conclude by saying 'Our relationship with God continues regardless.'
I very much agree with both.
@ExclamationMark , if you like preaching (should I say, if preaching is one of the things you might miss as a retired minister), I am pretty certain that a Methodist church would welcome you onto the circuit plan - and in a rural area, the ordained, un-retired minsters will be stretched very very thinly. But if you prefer pastoral work, I guess that never, ever goes away...
I'm told that I'm a Pastor/Teacher but also a kind of bringer togetherer/strategist. I tend to follow that lead.
My sister-in-law and brother-in-law (if I can still call them that since my wife died) have settled very happily into a Methodist church, somewhat to their surprise initially. They do wish there were more Wesleyan hymns and find some of the sermons a bit thin and after dinner speech-y but at least with a circuit system there's a variety of visiting preachers.
On the 'God called me to do this, that or the other' thing, sorry - I know Raptor Eye means well and it can be a form of shorthand - but in my experience it can cover a multitude of sins.
It's often shorthand at a ministerial / clergy level for: 'Look, this hasn't worked out right? So I've found a job somewhere else but want to put a more spiritual sounding spin on it.'
One of the most painful yet refreshing things I've ever seen in church life was when a Baptist minister preached his last sermon before moving on and openly and directly addressed the issues that had caused him to do so.
Of course, there were two sides to it but having previously been involved with the restorationist thing where conflicts or failings were often covered up or spiritualised away, the raw honesty of it was impressive.
I'm not saying that people don't sense some kind of 'calling' but generally I suspect it's mostly about working things out where we are and with whatever comes to hand.
You had to have a short memory to be involved with full on charismatic evangelicalism or develop as God seemed to change his mind every five minutes with a 'new thing' around every corner.
In fact I would recommend regular breaks, say every five years, six months minimum, since these reveal whether Christianity is just Churchianity.
Sometimes a healthy church is no church.
Obviously there will be those who doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion (or whatever). They are what is known as a cautionary tale.
True that. A real "new thing" would have been someone not starting a "prophecy" with "'Behold', says the LORD, 'I do a new thing'"
How many people still remember that "Renewal leads to Restoration which will bring in Revival"? I can't remember how many times I heard the prophetic voice declare that Revival was just about to happen.
Didn't hear that particular formulation but, yes, always just about to happen.
I don't think I agree with that formulation. Christianity is a communal faith. It is sustained by and through God's action in a Christian community. There have always been those who retreated from the world for a time to deepen their experience of God, but they were still connected to a community of faith (e.g. St Herbert lived alone on an island in Cumbria, but still made an annual journey to make his confession and receive communion from St Cuthbert). The vast, vast majority of Christians come to faith through the church and rely on the church to sustain it. Faith that withers when not nurtured by the church isn't "churchianity", it's normal Christianity for everyone except a handful to whom God has given particular gifts.
It's almost like they hadn't read the book of Acts
I agree with this - though as I mentioned, sometimes 'church' is all giving, and we need to 'take' from somewhere else.
Meanwhile, if you (pl) don't much like 'New Things', might I again commend The Methodist Church
(Our 'new-ish things' are, indeed Gamaliel, sermons which can feel a bit like Guardian opinion pieces, and hymns which feel like something you might sing to conclude a Labour party conference. But I have a magic talisman against this stuff - membership of an elderly black congregation who Don't Much Like That Kind of Thing, and whose preferences most of the wokiest woke local preachers are keen to respect. Wa-hey, roll out the Bible, Wesley, and Watts
'Lord, we are so complacent and middle-class,
Please kick us up the ass,
So we can sing lines that do not scan,
And love our fellow man -
Although we can't sing that because it's gender exclusive,
Help us be more inclusive
And not so completely useless
And salve our aching conscience
By attending the Labour Party Conference.'
(Not that I have an issue with the Labour Party Conference, I'm sure it's very good, nor sentiments around inclusivity but I don't really want to sing hymns telling God how complacent, middle class and privileged I am because he knows that already)
OLM - Our Lady of Mercy????
'...oooohhh, baby, I just can't make it, on my own...'
I'm nowhere near good enough to be good just by earnestness, which is why I am at church.
To (again) big up Methodism despite all this, I should say that although we are blessed, genuinely, with an excellent older female minister at the moment, this kind of Guardian-reader service (and singing) seems most popular around here with a certain kind of older, female, local preacher. There are fewer of those these days, and the younger ones (most of whom are not from the UK, in our patch) are, in their very different ways, much better.
To anyone who is thinking 'so, smart boy, why aren't you stepping forward to lead services if you're so clever?' I suppose I would say 'I was hoping no-one would say that out loud; is it OK if I pray about it, or is that a transparent ruse to kick this into the long grass?'.
Thanks. I don't know if there are any in Sydney. There are a few licensed Readers, but they can't officiate at a Eucharist.
Of course.
'Before a word is on my tongue, you know it already ...'
I think mark_in_manchester gets my drift and nails it.
I'm a woolly liberal Guardian reader type but I don't want to make a Sunday service out of my weekend pottering about the garden and reading habits.
Any more than I would want to attend a service where they sang:
'Glory, glory, glory
I'm so glad to be a Tory.'
Of course, whether covertly or openly, consciously or otherwise, whatever we do and however we do it is going to express who and what we are in ideological and socio-economic terms.
We are all contextualised, man ...
Wringing my hands and bemoaning the fact that I'm white, middle-aged and middle-class doesn't alter that fact. It may make a difference if it causes me to change my lifestyle and attitudes in some way and I suppose singing the sorts of songs I've parodied regularly enough could effect that to some extent.
It could also give me a false impression that I'm on the right track as it were, when all I'm actually doing is virtue-signalling and making myself feel better.
A bit like those Victorians who warbled away in church each Sunday and ignored the 'undeserving poor'.
Anyhow - that's getting away from the point of what alternatives there might be for disillusioned Anglicans or for retiring ministers like ExclamationMark who are moving to an unfashionable rural area.
As far as Methodism goes, I fluctuate between thinking its had its day on the one hand and that it has some spark about it that may yet surprise and stimulate the rest of us.
I hate it with a burning passion.
I don't read it that way. The phrasing is about intent and aspiration, not a claim of present reality. It's a challenge to us to compare the current reality of our church with the model offered by the hymn. Every verse starts "Let us..." not "We have [already]...".
Edit: language about where we would like to be rather than where we are is not uncommon in hymns.
Whilst a murderer would or should be made welcome, he or she should be ready to adapt his way of life, such as in the story of Blessed Jacques Fesch.
"All are welcome,
all are welcome,
all are welcome in this place."
I equally loathe it with a passion for similar reasons, those who fondly and often mistakenly believe they are welcoming swell with pride as they sing it.
@ExclamationMark - but the CofE has traditionally been a broad church, albeit narrowing fast, and statements of certainty exclude different groupings sheltering under that umbrella, driving them out into where? That's what this thread is asking. We can't all go and hide in cathedrals, even if they are accessible.
Yes. My Dad was a retired non-conformist minister. He rarely went to Church after properly retiring. (Many ministers still do a lot of services after retiring so his ‘proper’ retirement was years after his official retirement). To the extent that he and Mum bought a mobile home on the coast and spent every weekend there so that questions weren’t asked!
I take that point, but "All should be welcome" is closer to the lived reality.
I generally sing "Most aren't welcome ..." or "Some are welcome .... " just for a bit of balance.
We all like to say we welcome everyone. I do rather wonder whether it even ought to be true. Jesus and the prophets before him were quite abrasive with some people.
From time to time, and when I'm feeling really irritated, I pluck up the courage to ask 'do you really mean that?' People always say 'of course'. If you then ask 'so that includes loan-sharks does it?' deliberately choosing a category whom nobody likes because they unthinkingly assume that means 'somebody else'. Back comes the answer, 'well yes of course; we'd hope they'd be converted by the gospel and change their ways'.
Yebbut, that isn't what they mean by 'all are welcome' applied to whichever human sub-categories they think they are welcoming than other people aren't.
The sting in the tail is that he is actually their newly-appointed minister, entering incognito...
I think this is what I concluded. Cathedrals are odd places anyway, because they apply a very think layer of varnish to everything and everyone. If one goes often enough, one suddenly finds that one is totally gummed up. That's what I found anyway - it felt impossibly anxiety-inducing to do almost anything except sit there and smile. Is that the desired effect, or just an effect of a generalised culture of anxiety?
My kids and I are laughing about this. We had to lead this (in our sub-zoom phone-in-teleconference-church) a couple of weeks ago, and none of us liked it very much!
(A tangent, but I read his, very moving, story. I am a guest at a local RC men's group who organised some presentations on unusual men of faith for an away day. I picked / was allocated St Benedict Joseph Labre! It was a great day.)
We don’t sing this hymn often, and we’re a congregation very much focused right now on what it means to be welcoming to the “outcast and stranger” the hymn speaks of. When we do sing it, it’d generally I think be after a sermon dealing Jesus’s attitude of welcome, so I think it’d be framed in a context of “what we’re called to be” more than “what we’ve accomplished.” For what it’s worth, that hymn was written for the specific occasion of the dedication of a church, hence the first lines of each verse being “Let us build a place.”
I can see how the refrain could be sung with unwarranted pride. Frankly, lots of hymns can be sung that way. But I’m with @Arethosemyfeet. I hear even the refrain as aspirational, or even as a challenge: Whether we like it or not, whether it makes us comfortable or not, the church belongs to Jesus, and he welcomes all.
But I can see where others are coming from.
Because those tax-collectors, while certainly pariahs in their own community, were also willing and compensated collaborators with the Roman Empire, in its day the ultimate gang of power-hungry bastards.
The equivalent today might be a Black guy who becomes a lower-ranked member of the white-supremacist police department that terrorizes his own community. But I don't think that's who progressive theologians want us to identify with when they say "Jesus ate with outcasts."
It actually happened at a mission event in Cambridge University in 1980 (ISTM). He was denied entry. It transpired he was the speaker.
A cathedral is extremely inaccessible to me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that I can never see it as a local church as well as the underused wealth of the place.
Perhaps it's time to be a spiritual pilgrim or even plant a church!
In defence of some cathedrals (well, ours), they can also take on the role of *local church*, albeit perhaps writ larger than some.
Ours has (or had, pre-Covid) a large and flourishing Sunday School (they don't call it that, but YSWIM) comprised mostly of families from the fairly affluent immediate area.
I attended the Cathedral regularly (Sundays and major Holydays) for about 18 months before moving on - not for any unpleasant reason, but simply because I became involved in the life of a small parish elsewhere in the town. I now miss the ordered Anglican liturgy, and the excellent music (congregational, as well as choral!)...
Underused wealth? Not quite sure what you mean by that - perhaps you could unpack?
Time for a tangent, methinks but whilst I can see a place for hymns about the Church or about 'us' - glorious things of thee are spoken ...' - I don't much like them.
One of the things I like about Orthodox and other traditional liturgies is how Godward they are.
I don't really like singing about me and what my intentions are.
'Lord we want to ...'
Well just do it then.
On the wealth of cathedrals, I suspect EM is referring to how much they cost to maintain among other things.
I don't know what Thunderbunk means about 'varnish'. I've not actually attended many cathedral services so I suppose that's why the few I have attended have stuck in my mind. Great music, impressive setting and sermons that treat you like an adult.
Perhaps if I were able to attend them more regularly I'd find the sticky varnish that gums things up of which Thunderbunk speaks.
@ExclamationMark I wasn't suggesting that you should attend a cathedral, I was challenging your statement here which I now realise is on another thread, but is relevant as the LLF debate is causing some of the debate as to where is a suitable church:
Decided that I would go anywhere........ once my hearing is gone.
Is there not an inherent contradiction in that?
Since when?
I know you've had bad experiences of the CofE, ExclamationMark and I don't doubt that as a Baptist minister you've received short shrift from some up-themselves Anglican clergy.
I also get the distinct impression that you have a visceral aversion to public schoolboys, the royal family and fol de rol, but steady on ...
I'm sure if you set up your own independent church (conventical
On the Iwerne thing, I agree with you that there is something additionally and especially distasteful about it given its proximity to the corridors of power and I'm not a fan of the public school system either - even though I have plenty of friends who went to them.
There is a particularly problematic context to all this, given the CofE's position as the Established Church and so on. Granted.
But you seem to expecting a uniformity of belief and practice across the Anglican spectrum when that doesn't exist anywhere else within Protestantism* either from what I can see - it's certainly not there among Baptists.
Why should anyone trust the Baptists when individual congregations can believe what they like and there is no overall consensus?
That's a rhetorical question, of course.
*And yes, I know there are those who'd argue that the CofE isn't Protestant. The Iwerne-ites wouldn't of course.