Teenagers and misogyny

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  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I'd argue that the concept of "wife" is inherently sexualized as well, given that non-consummation has long been considered grounds for annulment. In other words it's not a distinction between "sexualized" and "non-sexualized", it's the difference between approved sexualization and non-approved sexualization.

    When women were encouraged to "lie back and think of England", I'm not sure that sexualized is a good characterization of "wife". An obligation to submit to her husband's "needs" or to produce children hardly equates to sexualization.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    When women were encouraged to "lie back and think of England", I'm not sure that sexualized is a good characterization of "wife". An obligation to submit to her husband's "needs" or to produce children hardly equates to sexualization.

    Then what term would you use for this way of viewing wives primarily though their sexual functions? Viewing women's sexuality through a lens that lends itself more easily to nationalism, patriarchy, or other thought systems more amenable to romanticism or sentimentalization would seem to qualify as "sexualization" as the term is generally understood. It's just a form of sexualization that typically has social approval.
  • FriendlyFireFriendlyFire Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I'd argue that the concept of "wife" is inherently sexualized as well, given that non-consummation has long been considered grounds for annulment. In other words it's not a distinction between "sexualized" and "non-sexualized", it's the difference between approved sexualization and non-approved sexualization.


    This might end up being a disagreement over definitions without any disagreement over the actual topic, but I'd perhaps argue that a better distinction might be between what might be called "private sexualization" and "public sexualization". The first indicating that the sexuality is primarily benefit for the husband, and that excluding relations with a husband, a woman should show no or little inclination towards expressing or having sexual desires. Comparatively, a "public sexualization" would indicate suggestive clothes and apparel that express having a sexual nature, becoming to a greater extent part of a girl's public persona.

    It's not a movement from one extreme to another - the double standard damning girls who've actually had sexual relations, but congratulating boys, remains in effect to this day. But the imagery and the possible recipients of such behaviour has altered.

    Crœsos wrote: »
    That's the problem with under-reporting and codes of silence; by their very nature that data simply does not exist. For example, no one believes that various religious organizations started abusing children and covering it up in the early twenty-first century. We assume that this is longstanding behavior that is only coming to light now because various religious institutions are losing their ability to silence the victims. I'd argue that the same is true with various forms of sexual harassment, both by teens and adults.

    I entirely agree that it would be near impossible to get data on this from a long time ago. My suggestion was not a comparison 1950s and now, but a shorter time frame - for instance 2011 and 2021. The topic is new, but not something that's been discovered this year either. And even ten years apart might indicate a tendency.

    Even this of course can lead to problems - a shift in values might also include a shift in what will be reported as misogyny. But this is not an uncommon problem in comparing sequentially in the social sciences.
  • The thing I don't understand is who exactly they thought we ought to report to? I liked my teachers, but it never occurred to me that they might intervene in what happened during the Wild, Wild West of the lunch period, which was unsupervised and during which I hid in the library so as to avoid having my feet perforated by a bully with four inch heels and a stomping habit. As an adult, I'm certain that had I gone to Mr. O or Miss S, the most I would have got was counsel to "stand up for myself," or questions about whether I had provoked them (Yes; by existing), or on the very far edge of probability, we might all have been told to sit down, bullying gang and victim together, and admonished as a group to be nice.

    I'm not aware of anybody from my youth who ever reported bullying or had anything done about it. It just wasn't a thing in the university of possible things.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Exactly. I can think of numerous things that happened that nobody ever reported.
    I experienced more of what I thought of as bullying from older girls (kicking, spitting, taking your stuff, locking you in the toilets, etc). In addition there was the general sexualised behaviour from many of the boys as a group, directed to girls at random - i.e. they didn’t have the nerve to target a whole group of girls, but didn’t pick on any particular girl as far as I know, though physically slower ones such as me often got the worst of it.
    The teachers can’t have failed to notice that several classrooms had a chair with a hole strategically burnt into the middle of the seat and a penis drawn on it. If you were last in, that would almost certainly be your chair, and then you would be in a state of high alert all lesson as you were vulnerable to a pen being stuck up the hole from underneath. It wasn’t the best learning environment.
  • The bad/stylised drawings of penises on chairs was something I encountered in my first teaching post. Never occurred to me that there was anything more to it than "hurr hurr, dicks, hurr hurr".
  • The bad/stylised drawings of penises on chairs was something I encountered in my first teaching post. Never occurred to me that there was anything more to it than "hurr hurr, dicks, hurr hurr".

    I think I still have, somewhere, the dictionary I had at school, in which one of my classmates saw fit to inscribe a comedic penis. There was certainly nothing more to that than the idea that penis drawings were funny, and would embarrass the person who was found with one in his possession - the game was to draw a penis on a sheet of paper in someone's folder, on the inside cover of their exercise book, or similar location, so that they wouldn't notice until they opened the book/folder in class, hopefully in front of a teacher.

    So I don't think @Aravis's story is the only reason one might find a penis drawn on a chair, although it's a pretty unpleasant one.
  • I'm a man, so I can't comment on misogyny. But there's a lot less shit smeared onto toilet stall walls, a lot less seats broken off, a lot less bullshit graffitti (supposed cottaging or maybe homophobic bullying, crappy anatomy lessons etc) than there used to be. I supposed those people were all projecting their egos on-line these days, as opposed to in-felt-tip. This has made me intend to find a gentle way of asking my daughters about it (13 and 16 (today!)).
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I'm wondering about the overlap between bullying and sexism. I say this because I remember at least one incident of sexual bullying in my school, which was all girls. Not a boy in sight, but didn't stop the girls doing cruel things to each other.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Girls can be awful. There was a strict pecking order at my elementary school, and I was far enough down to be left out of most group activities, but the fattest girl and the shy Jewish girl were right at the bottom and were constantly bullied. The shy Jewish girl tried to pick on me once, in what I recognized as an effort to move up the ladder, and I slapped her down fast and hard -- no way I was trading places with her to get picked on every day. The summer after 4th grade, the fat girl nearly starved herself to death; she was bone thin and almost unrecognizable on the first day of school in 5th grade after spending a couple of weeks in August in the hospital. She had entered the popular girls' circle by the end of the day. And I couldn't help but think of it when I saw pictures from a high school reunion -- so much Botox and plastic surgery.
  • In primary school, Dawn H and Andrew P. F8ck, what shit they took.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Girls can be awful. There was a strict pecking order at my elementary school, ... I couldn't help but think of it when I saw pictures from a high school reunion -- so much Botox and plastic surgery.
    It's a major reason why I don't attend my high school reunions--the popular girls are still in charge of the whole thing, though by now the nerds have mostly "won" at life, and our former arch-enemies are painfully eager to make friends with us--which is so very very uncomfortable, and I just don't want to go there. Especially since there is no doubt still a strong "but she looks so terrible!" current going on behind the scenes, no matter what flattering things are said to your face. And nobody looks wonderful 30 years past high school.

  • questioningquestioning Shipmate

    I think that perhaps a key issue here is treating girls for the most part the same as boys, which is something our culture recently has gotten worse at.

    But we're still assuming, then, that the norm for being "human" is male. Why not treat boys for the most part the same as girls?
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Girls can be awful. There was a strict pecking order at my elementary school, ... I couldn't help but think of it when I saw pictures from a high school reunion -- so much Botox and plastic surgery.
    It's a major reason why I don't attend my high school reunions--the popular girls are still in charge of the whole thing, though by now the nerds have mostly "won" at life, and our former arch-enemies are painfully eager to make friends with us--which is so very very uncomfortable, and I just don't want to go there. Especially since there is no doubt still a strong "but she looks so terrible!" current going on behind the scenes, no matter what flattering things are said to your face. And nobody looks wonderful 30 years past high school.

    Dunno about that, 52 years on. Some look fabulous, and yes, time has not been kind to some


  • I think that perhaps a key issue here is treating girls for the most part the same as boys, which is something our culture recently has gotten worse at.

    But we're still assuming, then, that the norm for being "human" is male. Why not treat boys for the most part the same as girls?

    A very good point. I'd suggest though, that the treatment of girls often is so bad, that I wouldn't want anyone to experience it, regardless of their gender.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    It's not just the girls but boys can be tough on their counterparts as well. I was the youngest boy in my class and, therefore, a little slower in reaching puberty than the other boys. On top of that, I had a slight disability since I was born that impacted my coordination. I was always the last picked in physical education. Seventh through ninth were tough years for me (I was called fag many times--which I am not.) It was not until my sophomore year (10th) that I finally caught up with my peers, though being in a small rural school, there were some lingering problems.

    Let's face it. Early teenage years are tough on almost everyone.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited April 9
    I was bottom of the pecking order as I was the smallest girl (I’m only 4 foot 11 as an adult) in my year in the biggest and roughest school in Luton. I was also a shy introvert from a poor family. I was bullied mercilessly throughout high school but mainly psychological and very personal bullying by other girls rather than physical. I was not bullied by boys but the more ‘developed’ girls were more likely to get their attention; bra strap pinging was common. I have never had any urge to meet up for any school reunion and I have only friended one of my former fellow students on Facebook (a lovely but troubled girl who turned into an equally lovely but troubled woman).
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate

    I think that perhaps a key issue here is treating girls for the most part the same as boys, which is something our culture recently has gotten worse at.

    But we're still assuming, then, that the norm for being "human" is male. Why not treat boys for the most part the same as girls?

    Because we don't treat girls very well.
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