The Troubles

CaissaCaissa Shipmate
I read BBC almost every day. Can some of our UK members provide me with some analysis on the recent flareup of violence in North Ireland? If it is already being discussed in another thread my apologies and please direct me to that discussion.
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Comments

  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    Someone else with a fullsome grasp of matters will be along in a moment. But in short we had the Good Friday agreement. Then Brexit, which drive a coach and horses through that agreement.
    The current UK govt was warned but they knew best.

    It has all gone downhill from then on.
  • There seem to be at least three factors that have lead to the recent violence.

    1. The Brexit deal negotiated by Boris Johnson which in order to preserve the Good Friday Agreement requirement for an open border on Ireland requires various custom checks to be conducted for goods moving from the mainland to Northern Ireland - the so-called "border in the Irish Sea". This is something that's an unavoidable consequence of the decision to pursue a form of Brexit that takes the UK out of the Single Market and Customs Union, which was supported by the DUP but looks like a break-up of the UK which is anathema to the Unionists.

    2. Anger that crowds broke the Covid restrictions to attend the funeral of an IRA member, including several senior politicians, without any charges being brought. That has (quite rightly) angered a lot of people who have not attended the funerals of friends and family for the last year.

    3. Many of the paramilitaries have maintained their existence as criminal organisations, and the police have been very active cracking down on criminal activity associated with them. There's evidence that these gangs have incited violence against the police from their supporters.
  • On the SF funeral, nationalists are pointing out that celebrations for Rangers were loud and crowded in Belfast, particularly the Shankill. However, probably the funeral was provocative. But Brexit has surely been disastrous for N. Ireland.
  • On the SF funeral, nationalists are pointing out that celebrations for Rangers were loud and crowded in Belfast, particularly the Shankill. However, probably the funeral was provocative. But Brexit has surely been disastrous for N. Ireland.

    Yes, I think so. It's disastrous on a fundamental level, because the whole peace process is based on fudging the difference between a British identity and an Irish identity, by making the status of Northern Ireland ambiguous. Having both the UK and Ireland as EU members was crucial to this: you could argue that it didn't matter anyway since we were all part of the EU. Brexit brings the difference into sharp relief and the fault lines begin to open once more. I suspect any sort of Brexit would have done this but a harder one does so more immediately.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.
  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Istm that the current govt threw Northern Ireland under a bus, just to get Brexit done.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Is this not the case then?

    Article from the Guardian - https://tinyurl.com/3jut65e3
    The soon-to-be rioters were young males, many teenagers, dressed almost identically in dark fleeces and tracksuits. They made their preparations openly and with method, even swagger, conscious that they had an audience of several hundred people.

    Sounds to me like they were itching for a fight. 😢
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Is this not the case then?

    Article from the Guardian - https://tinyurl.com/3jut65e3
    The soon-to-be rioters were young males, many teenagers, dressed almost identically in dark fleeces and tracksuits. They made their preparations openly and with method, even swagger, conscious that they had an audience of several hundred people.

    Sounds to me like they were itching for a fight. 😢

    So that's your analysis of the Troubles?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Is this not the case then?

    Article from the Guardian - https://tinyurl.com/3jut65e3
    The soon-to-be rioters were young males, many teenagers, dressed almost identically in dark fleeces and tracksuits. They made their preparations openly and with method, even swagger, conscious that they had an audience of several hundred people.

    Sounds to me like they were itching for a fight. 😢

    So that's your analysis of the Troubles?

    No, it’s my observation on a journalist’s report.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.

    It's not an approach to N. Ireland. It's a comment about all those who take part in mindless violence anywhere. They enjoy it.

  • Violence isn't always mindless. There are times when it is quite deliberate, planned and undertaken with a specific aim. That doesn't mean that violence is never mindless, but it seems to be far more constructive to try and understand why people resort to violence than simply dismiss it as mindless - for if there are reasons why people are resorting to violence then it may be possible to address those reasons and break the cycle of violence.
  • And the GFA was intended to break the cycle of violence, which it did. If violence is returning, there are reasons.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Did people not enjoy mindless violence before Brexit? In which case why didn't they engage in mindless violence before Brexit? Or did they now enjoy mindless violence because of Brexit?
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.

    It's not an approach to N. Ireland. It's a comment about all those who take part in mindless violence anywhere. They enjoy it.

    I would say that the violence in Northern Ireland (I come from there, btw) is only too mindful. Remember 1690. And everything since.

    You can package the painted gables as tourist sights, but do you think anyone forgets?
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Did people not enjoy mindless violence before Brexit? In which case why didn't they engage in mindless violence before Brexit? Or did they now enjoy mindless violence because of Brexit?

    People have always enjoyed mindless violence.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.

    It's not an approach to N. Ireland. It's a comment about all those who take part in mindless violence anywhere. They enjoy it.

    I would say that the violence in Northern Ireland (I come from there, btw) is only too mindful. Remember 1690. And everything since.

    You can package the painted gables as tourist sights, but do you think anyone forgets?

    Giving them an excuse for their criminality is not helpful in my opinion.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Telford wrote: »
    Firenze wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.

    It's not an approach to N. Ireland. It's a comment about all those who take part in mindless violence anywhere. They enjoy it.

    I would say that the violence in Northern Ireland (I come from there, btw) is only too mindful. Remember 1690. And everything since.

    You can package the painted gables as tourist sights, but do you think anyone forgets?

    Giving them an excuse for their criminality is not helpful in my opinion.

    You do not seem to grasp the difference between an excuse and an explanation.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate

    These young people have no personal memory of what the Troubles actually meant, and therefore have no sense of what it took to get even the Good Friday agreement sorted.
    The elders of the Loyalist communities - some of whom will be behind this violence - are in a perfect position to mop up these agitated youngsters for their own purposes. The areas featured so far are historically poorer, working-class housing estates, with high unemployment, high in the indices of deprivation, and typically high engagement with paramilitary activity.

    The unrest Brexit has brought is the gift that just keeps giving so far as the junior divisions of the paras are concerned. The paras, of course, are missing their drugs-funded glory days of The Troubles when they had huge power over such communities. Brexit badly done is the perfect recruitment ground for these old-hand criminals. Just as predicted.

    Northern Ireland, of course, voted Remain. But it's got to be remembered that the Unionist/Loyalist community largely bought the lies of the Leave campaign. Which is why they were happy with Arlene Foster (a Leaver) leading Stormont. Until they realised that really she was powerless to secure the inviolate British citizenship Brexit promised .

    I personally don't think there's any more threat to British citizenship as a result of Brexit, per se, than there was before. The real 'threat' to British citizenship is the changing demographic, and the general trend of ambivalence towards Westminster. The current threat to the peace, however, was and is in the incompetent handling of a very touchy, politically explosive situation. Going into Brexit negotiations the Government needed to be superbly diplomatic to achieve what needed to be achieved without apparent compromise and with complete reassurance to the insecure Loyalists. This they promised and this they failed to deliver. Instead it was just a complete car crash, from the point of view of the Loyalists who voted Leave.

    There was and always will be violence from the Loyalists whenever there's a whisper of threat against their status. This is as good an excuse as any other. The trick was to try not to provide the excuse quite so obviously!



  • Of course, there is the widespread rumour that the Tories are not all that bothered about hanging onto N. Ireland.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    Brexit was always primarily an English nationalist project.

    What Gibraltar, N Ireland and the Falklands have never really seemed to understand - is that the English mainland had never really seen them as British. They saw them as colonies. It’s slightly less true of Scotland and Wales just because they are physically connected.

    Thus the loyalists seem forever surprised when the mainland is disloyal to them and unconcerned about their best interests.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Firenze wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Some people just enjoy being involved in violence.

    An idiotic approach to N. Ireland.

    It's not an approach to N. Ireland. It's a comment about all those who take part in mindless violence anywhere. They enjoy it.

    I would say that the violence in Northern Ireland (I come from there, btw) is only too mindful. Remember 1690. And everything since.

    You can package the painted gables as tourist sights, but do you think anyone forgets?

    Giving them an excuse for their criminality is not helpful in my opinion.

    You do not seem to grasp the difference between an excuse and an explanation.

    I disagree but I am not going to comment further.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    ...
    3. Many of the paramilitaries have maintained their existence as criminal organisations, and the police have been very active cracking down on criminal activity associated with them. There's evidence that these gangs have incited violence against the police from their supporters.

    Above all it's this.
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    edited April 8
    Brexit was always primarily an English nationalist project.

    What Gibraltar, N Ireland and the Falklands have never really seemed to understand - is that the English mainland had never really seen them as British. They saw them as colonies. It’s slightly less true of Scotland and Wales just because they are physically connected.

    Thus the loyalists seem forever surprised when the mainland is disloyal to them and unconcerned about their best interests.

    ...and until 1982 Britain wasn't all that keen on hanging on to the Falklands, which were just an inconvenience, the 1981 Defence White Paper pretty much gave Argentina the impetus to invade Las Malvinas. But that's beenn ignored ever sincein view of Our Glorious Victory Over The Argies! - our last colonial war, one wonders? Certainly we'd be hard-pressed to repeat the feat today.
  • I think one problem here is that loyalists perceive the DUP to have been outmanoeuvered and "sold down the river" in traditional fashion. Therefore there is no "establishment" authority over loyalist factions. They are unlikely to back down on Arlene Foster's say-so in the way that they might have done for Paisley.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited April 9
    I was quite upset when I saw the news last night, and then found an article about the causes and prospects of stabilising the situation. Predictably, emotion took over and I was effing and jeffing the bastard Tories. It is their fault, but not only their fault, that violence might well return to the British Isles.

    @Telford has a point when he says that some people enjoy violence. They used to be called apprentice boys, young men who enjoy street fighting for political ends. These loyalist apprentice boys and the people who encourage them must bear their share of responsibility.

    Others at fault include British people who supported Brexit come hell or high water. If they didn't know that Brexit was likely to destabilise Northern Ireland and potentially unleash another round of terrorism on the British and Irish people, they stand condemned for their ignorance. If they said, "But we can't let THAT get in the way of what the British people want", they stand condemned for their narrow, sectarian views. The British should have remembered and taken care over Northern Ireland. Those British people who support Brexit must bear their share of responsibility.

    It took a herculean, multi-generational effort to achieve the Good Friday Agreement, but in the words of Monty Python, it's not dead yet. Lets hope, for the sake of everyone that the basic decency of the Irish people and their strong desire for peace and prosperity will rescue Britain from its folly.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Why are Protestant gangsters deploying rioters against Brexit and the bastard Tories again?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @Caissa unlike everybody else who has posted on this thread (I think) @Anselmina is actually there and knows what she's talking about. Best listen to her and take all the other comments with a pinch of salt - except possibly @TurquoiseTastic's
    "I think one problem here is that loyalists perceive the DUP to have been outmanoeuvered and "sold down the river" in traditional fashion."
    which follows on fairly naturally from what @Anselmina has said.

  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Why are Protestant gangsters deploying rioters against Brexit and the bastard Tories again?

    They're not against Brexit. What they want (insofar as rational thought is involved) is Brexit without any division between N.I. and Great Britain. This would seem to imply a soft Brexit - and indeed I think unionists could have been persuaded to live with that.

    However emotionally I think unionists prefer a hard Brexit with the idea of re-imposing a border and sticking it to "the other side". The Conservatives, even the "hard Brexiteers", are not ultimately prepared for a re-run of the 1970s but unionists see this as a betrayal.
  • Presumably, many loyalists saw Brexit in terms of a hyper-sovereignty, which would negate the Republic, and the Good Friday Agreement. (Too close to Dublin). What they didn't expect was Boris ratting on them and leaving N. Ireland half in and half out of the EU, and apparently more detached from GB.
  • I had to laugh at Arlene the other day remonstrating with loyalist rioters, because this obscures the real criminals, all those bloody Fenians, (my paraphrase).
  • Presumably, many loyalists saw Brexit in terms of a hyper-sovereignty, which would negate the Republic, and the Good Friday Agreement. (Too close to Dublin). What they didn't expect was Boris ratting on them and leaving N. Ireland half in and half out of the EU, and apparently more detached from GB.

    Well but they should have expected it. In fact I think they probably did expect it but couldn't help but follow through anyway. It's almost part of the unionist mindset - "what we do is to rely on the untrustworthy Conservatives who then betray us".
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I had to laugh at Arlene the other day remonstrating with loyalist rioters, because this obscures the real criminals, all those bloody Fenians, (my paraphrase).

    She’s reaping the whirlwind. She could have had a soft Brexit if she’d gone with Theresa May’s proposal.

    (I am a very staunch remainer and consider myself ‘still European’. But Arlene had a big - far far bigger than she should have had - influence on Brexit and how it panned out)

  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Shipmate
    edited April 9
    I had to laugh at Arlene the other day remonstrating with loyalist rioters, because this obscures the real criminals, all those bloody Fenians, (my paraphrase).

    Yes, no-one in N.I. can ever resist a swipe at the other side... "I'm in favour of apple pie, unlike all those loyalists who feel compelled to include orange in it..." - "I like the first flowers of spring, which have unfortunately been hijacked by nationalists for their so-called 'Easter Rising'"
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    I had to laugh at Arlene the other day remonstrating with loyalist rioters, because this obscures the real criminals, all those bloody Fenians, (my paraphrase).

    Yes, no-one in N.I. can ever resist a swipe at the other side... "I'm in favour of apple pie, unlike all those loyalists who feel compelled to include orange in it..." - "I like the first flowers of spring, which have unfortunately been hijacked by nationalists for their so-called 'Easter Rising'"

    Well, of course, the orange lily has been taken in hand by the Loyalists!! Growing up, we had a neighbour who used to grow his orange lilies in time for the Twelfth, to he could wear it when he marched with his Orange Lodge. We had them, too. But purely for decoration!

    Having a personal smile at this post. My Dad used to enjoy telling me that a long, long time ago - pre WWI - when Home Rule was the aim of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, as well as the Nationalists, they, too, were proscribed as Fenian rebels. 'Blackmouths' forced out of their churches and communities, compelled to avoid starving by eating the blueberries ('blaeberries') off the hedges - hence the 'black mouths'. Don't know how accurate any of that is, but Dad loved to read up on Irish history and sing rebel songs; and thanks to him I got at least a non-typical picture of Ireland and her various travails.
  • In our house, we have the sad habit of singing, "snarlene, snarlene", to the tune of "Jolene". Why not?
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Did people not enjoy mindless violence before Brexit? In which case why didn't they engage in mindless violence before Brexit? Or did they now enjoy mindless violence because of Brexit?
    People have always enjoyed mindless violence.
    The point is in the twenty-odd years between the Good Friday Agreement and Brexit there wasn't any significant mindless violence in Northern Ireland. "People" enjoy mindless violence is not a sufficient explanation.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Did people not enjoy mindless violence before Brexit? In which case why didn't they engage in mindless violence before Brexit? Or did they now enjoy mindless violence because of Brexit?
    People have always enjoyed mindless violence.
    The point is in the twenty-odd years between the Good Friday Agreement and Brexit there wasn't any significant mindless violence in Northern Ireland.
    Er... I think that is an over-optimistic statement. There was less, for sure, which was definitely a good thing, and there were only a few "waaffer-thin" sectarian murders.
  • You could say there has been intermittent violence in Ireland for the last 800 years. I wonder why. Yes, I know it was the Normans at first.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Why are Protestant gangsters deploying rioters against Brexit and the bastard Tories again?

    They're not against Brexit. What they want (insofar as rational thought is involved) is Brexit without any division between N.I. and Great Britain. This would seem to imply a soft Brexit - and indeed I think unionists could have been persuaded to live with that.

    However emotionally I think unionists prefer a hard Brexit with the idea of re-imposing a border and sticking it to "the other side". The Conservatives, even the "hard Brexiteers", are not ultimately prepared for a re-run of the 1970s but unionists see this as a betrayal.

    Er, I was being ironic. Sorry. It's got bugger all to do with Brexit compared with Protestant gangsters igniting the streets where their drug revenues have been crimped by the PSNI.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    On the subject of Arlene Foster, I don't think that it helped that her Westminster colleagues were so powerful in Theresa May's government, as they held the balance of power, so their views got promoted over everyone else's in terms of how central government saw the impending impact of Brexit and the political situation in Northern Ireland. (Not that I think that any amount of sense could have overcome the "la la la I can't hear you attitude of most Conservatives.)

    On top of which the best NI secretary of recent years got dumped unceremoniously as soon as Boris Johnson got his landslide for not being an ardent Brexiteer. (I am an outsider in this but have followed things enough to think that the man who got the Stormont assembly running again deserves some praise.)
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Unionists seem to have hoped that in Boris Johnson they had King Billy come again but at the last fence (to mix metaphors they found they had a Lundy. One would like to think that Prince Philip's death would lead to a cooling-off but I fear that's too much to hope.
  • LuciaLucia Shipmate
    Regarding Brexit and Northern Ireland, I had a conversation more than a year ago (where I was struggling to keep my cool...) with a colleague who was an ardent Brexiteer. When I raised the fact that Brexit is likely to cause a huge amount of problems for Northern Ireland and that it seems that this had not been properly considered or presented in the run up to the Brexit vote, her response was 'No one cares about them'. She is of British Asian background from the south-east of England. I suspect she and many others who voted for Brexit have no attachment to Northern Ireland, perhaps little interest in and understanding of the history, and would happily see it go from the United Kingdom in order to get their preferred version of Brexit.
  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    This



    I wish I were a little more optimistic but

    I m not
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Presumably, many loyalists saw Brexit in terms of a hyper-sovereignty, which would negate the Republic, and the Good Friday Agreement. (Too close to Dublin). What they didn't expect was Boris ratting on them and leaving N. Ireland half in and half out of the EU, and apparently more detached from GB.

    Well but they should have expected it. In fact I think they probably did expect it but couldn't help but follow through anyway. It's almost part of the unionist mindset - "what we do is to rely on the untrustworthy Conservatives who then betray us".

    ... and given that they did not support the Conservative PM on either of her proposals, or propose anything workable of their own, for once I can see some justification for the Conservatives ratting on them ...
  • The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)

    Anyone from Northern Ireland is already entitled to dual Irish/British citizenship and has been for many years.

    While I have many frustrations with unionism your "ethnic-cleansing-lite" suggestion does not sit well with me.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)

    Yeahhhhh. And the democratic mandate for cutting off a piece of the UK we don't like is?
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)

    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?

    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
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