The Troubles

245

Comments

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

  • Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    When the situation was that the UK govt decided to leave the EU, rather than the EU deciding that the UK should no longer be a member state.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?

    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.

    How is freedom throwing out?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement
    The EU doesn’t have the freedom to relax it’s rules just for the U.K. or for Northern Ireland. If it relaxes the rules for them it has to relax it’s rules for all other non-member nations as well. That’s the impact of the WTO rules.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Plus, the headlong rush to get Brexit done as soon as possible, and keep the transition period down to nine months, didn't exactly leave a lot of time for working out flexible solutions.

    If there was a 'technological solution' to the Irish border issue - and it would be a gamechanger for international trade if there was - then the UK rush to get out of the EU pretty much guaranteed that it wouldn't be found.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    The UK has done that. The problem isn't NI. It's the Republic=EU as opposed to our neighbour. I see the UK acting with goodwill, enlightened self-interest (given the absolute disaster of Brexit as an erosion of liberal technocracy, warts and all) toward the Republic whose hands are tied by the EU the other side of the UK. What else could the UK rationally, reasonably, realistically do? Protestant fascist gangsters are using the excuse of Brexit which has nothing to do with their fomenting sectarian violence because the PSNI have hurt their drug empire.
  • The UK could have reasonably, realistically, agreed a single market + customs union deal. The government put the unity of the tory party above the interests of the country in general and NI in particular.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Yes, it was extremely dumb not to stay in the customs union. I mean, even Turkey is in the customs union and I don't see Erdogan having problems with "lack of sovereignty vis a vis the EU".

    I have seen @Telford 's suggestion proposed by many. I think it would be unstable and an open invitation to smuggling in both directions - a gift for paramilitary funding. Alternatively you could have checks between the Republic and the rest of the EU but the Republic would probably (and legitmately) say "why should we do that?".
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    The UK has done that. The problem isn't NI. It's the Republic=EU as opposed to our neighbour. I see the UK acting with goodwill, enlightened self-interest (given the absolute disaster of Brexit as an erosion of liberal technocracy, warts and all) toward the Republic whose hands are tied by the EU the other side of the UK. What else could the UK rationally, reasonably, realistically do? Protestant fascist gangsters are using the excuse of Brexit which has nothing to do with their fomenting sectarian violence because the PSNI have hurt their drug empire.

    Nah @Martin54 . This comes down to IDENTITY as it always does in Northern Ireland. Unionists are cutting off their noses to spite their faces as they have done for at least 125 years. (Perhaps I should say we are cutting off our noses, being from a Unionist background myself though living in England for many years - leafy North Down variety, not Shankill Road).
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    You could say there has been intermittent violence in Ireland for the last 800 years. I wonder why. Yes, I know it was the Normans at first.

    pretty sure there was tribal violence too. It wasn't some sort of arcadia before the English started meddling.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    You could say there has been intermittent violence in Ireland for the last 800 years. I wonder why. Yes, I know it was the Normans at first.

    pretty sure there was tribal violence too. It wasn't some sort of arcadia before the English started meddling.

    True. But meanwhile Irish monks are founding European culture.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Yes, it was extremely dumb not to stay in the customs union. I mean, even Turkey is in the customs union and I don't see Erdogan having problems with "lack of sovereignty vis a vis the EU".

    I have seen @Telford 's suggestion proposed by many. I think it would be unstable and an open invitation to smuggling in both directions - a gift for paramilitary funding. Alternatively you could have checks between the Republic and the rest of the EU but the Republic would probably (and legitmately) say "why should we do that?".

    Its a bulldust suggestion made by profiteering liars and picked up by @telford and others as a prophylactic against the slowly dawning realisation that Brexit was a boneheaded idea based on a farrage of lies. The notion that others should be made to clean up after the incontinent English patriot is just unbelievable, yet also entirely predictable.

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    You could say there has been intermittent violence in Ireland for the last 800 years. I wonder why. Yes, I know it was the Normans at first.

    pretty sure there was tribal violence too. It wasn't some sort of arcadia before the English started meddling.

    True. But meanwhile Irish monks are founding European culture.

    I agree. Not sure its a "but" though. Violence is just a reality, and exists alongside every other facet of humanity. Very few places in Europe at least could say that there has not been intermittent violence there over the past 800 years.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    You could say there has been intermittent violence in Ireland for the last 800 years. I wonder why. Yes, I know it was the Normans at first.

    pretty sure there was tribal violence too. It wasn't some sort of arcadia before the English started meddling.

    Well, in mythic terms, which a lot of nationalism amounts to, there was the violence of the invader, the alien oppressor, and so on. From that flow the notions of freedom and independence, and the sonorous words of the Easter Proclamation, "we declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies ... .The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right".
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    When you said Britain and Ireland should go back to how things were 'before the two countries joined the EU' you didn't mean they should go back to how things were 'before the two countries joined the EU'?
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement [/quote]The Good Friday Agreement is an agreement between the UK and Ireland: the EU is only a party because Ireland is a member. The UK is breaking its promises, like a spouse who accuses adultery and then accuses the loyal spouse of not being genuinely serious about the marriage.

    The EU isn't being precious about its rules. What is precious about wanting to control its borders?
    We're only in this mess because the UK government wants complete control on how many immigrants it lets into the country. If being precious about the rules is a problem you should be looking at the plank in the UK government's eye.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I find it interesting that the DUP seems to want to be an integral part of the UK but to opt out of the UK laws on abortion.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    The biggest single problem with the Good Friday agreement right now seems to be that calling it an "agreement" diminishes the awareness that it's a binding international treaty, not just an internal Northern Ireland power-sharing deal.

    Of course, the people of Northern Ireland didn't vote for the Brexit mess, quite possibly because many of them were well aware that Brexit and the Good Friday agreement just weren't very compatible.

    Whereas over in England the awareness and interest of people in the Good Friday agreement is probably minimal.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I find it interesting that the DUP seems to want to be an integral part of the UK but to opt out of the UK laws on abortion.

    These questions of independence and union generally have a lot more to do with identity than with approval of current specific policies.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I find it interesting that the DUP seems to want to be an integral part of the UK but to opt out of the UK laws on abortion.

    These questions of independence and union generally have a lot more to do with identity than with approval of current specific policies.

    And the DUP were always keen on devolution (unlike the UUP who were more on board with Mrs. Thatcher's view that Ulster was "as British as Finchley")
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    The UK has done that. The problem isn't NI. It's the Republic=EU as opposed to our neighbour. I see the UK acting with goodwill, enlightened self-interest (given the absolute disaster of Brexit as an erosion of liberal technocracy, warts and all) toward the Republic whose hands are tied by the EU the other side of the UK. What else could the UK rationally, reasonably, realistically do? Protestant fascist gangsters are using the excuse of Brexit which has nothing to do with their fomenting sectarian violence because the PSNI have hurt their drug empire.

    The time for being 'rational, reasonable and realistic' was on the 2016 Referendum hustings. But the UK didn't do that. It said, 'let's do this, and then let's think about what it means to do it afterwards'. The tone was set for everything that has followed.

    The EU are under no obligation to disadvantage their member states for a former member state who has made it clear it doesn't care for the EU. The Leave campaigners falsely represented the EU as being desperate to strike up great deals for Britain. They falsely promoted how easy it would be to transition. And all without any plans, negotiations or agreements; not even an agreed leadership for the job in hand at that point. Talk about unicorn politics.

    And of course paramilitary gangs are using the shambles of Brexit as an excuse for their own ends. It was predicted. It was precisely the thing highlighted back in 2016 as one of the more than likely outcomes of a badly done Brexit. It's probably the main reason Northern Ireland rejected Leaving the EU. It was entirely up to the UK government to ensure that Brexit wasn't badly done - just as promised - especially to a constituent nation who had voted in opposition to leaving the EU out of fear that this would be the result. Now innocent citizens are having to suffer the worst violence they've seen in years for the consequences of an action they didn't - as a country - even support in the first place. But as usual 'mainland' Britain not only want to slough off their responsibility for their part in creating the situation, but want to pretend that those particular British citizens aren't really worth caring about because it's only really about drugs. Sickening and predictable.
  • Terrific post, Anselmina. Boris will continue to deny links with Brexit, as will the tabloids.
  • Terrific post, Anselmina. Boris will continue to deny links with Brexit, as will the tabloids.

    What @Anselmina said.

    Any sign of Boris making his way to NI, to help calm things down?

    No?
  • The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)

    Anyone from Northern Ireland is already entitled to dual Irish/British citizenship and has been for many years.

    While I have many frustrations with unionism your "ethnic-cleansing-lite" suggestion does not sit well with me.

    I didn’t say it was a good idea.

    I do think the break up of the U.K. more generally is the likely outworking of Brexit. Largely because it has made English nationalism/colonialism much more obvious and offensive.
  • Doesn't English nationalism make the union obsolescent? Who wants to be tied to a rotting carcass?
  • SighthoundSighthound Shipmate
    Johnson had an 'oven-ready' deal and won a GE on the back of it. That deal included checks on goods crossing the Irish sea. End of story. Part of the price of Brexit, which is a very, very expensive white elephant.

    The UK should now either rejoin the CU/SM, promote Irish unity or accept the consequences of the foolish treaty it signed. It was not a diktat, indeed it was hailed at the time as a triumph of Johnson's brilliant negotiation skills.

    Not all of us have the memory of a goldfish. Moreover many of us saw this coming from the minute May announced her stupid 'red lines.'
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    The notion that others should be made to clean up after the incontinent English patriot is just unbelievable, yet also entirely predictable.

    I'm afraid that it is far from unbelievable - it is the default assumption of a lot of English people. "We created a wonderful empire - the fact that so much of it was built by plundering and despoiling the natural resources of the lands that were conquered and by the systematic abuse of native peoples is Somebody Else's Problem"
  • Just look at the people who think that the EU is evil, but the British Empire was a wonderful thing that the funny-coloured folk should be thankful for. Remind me which one of the two operated by armed conquest and killing people?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Just look at the people who think that the EU is evil, but the British Empire was a wonderful thing that the funny-coloured folk should be thankful for. Remind me which one of the two operated by armed conquest and killing people?

    Are Brexiteers generally imperial nostalgists? I've never gotten the impression it's something they really talk about, beyond maybe " Well, that was a long time ago, so now these minorities need to shut up about it and stop blaming us for all their problems."

    IOW not really actively pro-Empire in the manner of an old-style Colonel Blimp, just not willing to acknowledge it as a negative force still having an impact today.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    Not at all. They should stop trying to break up toe UK

  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    edited April 10
    Why is that the EU's problem?
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement
    The EU doesn’t have the freedom to relax it’s rules just for the U.K. or for Northern Ireland. If it relaxes the rules for them it has to relax it’s rules for all other non-member nations as well. That’s the impact of the WTO rules.
    Rules are there to be made and to be amended
  • Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    Not at all. They should stop trying to break up toe UK

    Please explain exactly how the EU is trying to break up the UK.
    Why is that the EU's problem?

    Please answer this question, too.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Are Brexiteers generally imperial nostalgists? I've never gotten the impression it's something they really talk about, beyond maybe " Well, that was a long time ago, so now these minorities need to shut up about it and stop blaming us for all their problems."

    IOW not really actively pro-Empire in the manner of an old-style Colonel Blimp, just not willing to acknowledge it as a negative force still having an impact today.

    I've certainly come across friends of friends on social media who think that an Indian doctor has no right to complain about things he doesn't like in Britain because "He wouldn't be a doctor without Britain" - though that may be simple dickheadery?

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    Not at all. They should stop trying to break up toe UK

    Please explain exactly how the EU is trying to break up the UK.
    Ttying to create conditions which result in a united Ireland.
    Why is that the EU's problem?

    Please answer this question, too.
    I am not clear as to what the question is

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Are Brexiteers generally imperial nostalgists? I've never gotten the impression it's something they really talk about, beyond maybe " Well, that was a long time ago, so now these minorities need to shut up about it and stop blaming us for all their problems."

    IOW not really actively pro-Empire in the manner of an old-style Colonel Blimp, just not willing to acknowledge it as a negative force still having an impact today.

    I've certainly come across friends of friends on social media who think that an Indian doctor has no right to complain about things he doesn't like in Britain because "He wouldn't be a doctor without Britain" - though that may be simple dickheadery?

    I think they probably believe what they're saying, but it's a secondary argument to their main point.

    The typical white Canadian rant about indigenous people would go something like...

    A: Can you believe how many of these goddam indians are drunk and on welfare?

    B: But that's at least partly related to the way they were mistreated under colonialism, I'd say.

    A: Aw come on, without the white man, they'd still be living in teepees.

    Person A probably doesn't spend a lot of time waxing sentimental about the White Man's Burden, except insofar as it's a useful rationale for ignoring objections to his racist tirades, which are otherwise just focused on his dislike of indigenous people in the here and now.

    I suspect the same thing is probably going on with your Facebook acquaintances. They probably don't want to revive the Empire, or even care whether or not it survived in the first place, but it's supposed benefits to the conquered are a convenient weapon-to-hand when faced with anti-racist arguments.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    Not at all. They should stop trying to break up toe UK

    Please explain exactly how the EU is trying to break up the UK.
    Ttying to create conditions which result in a united Ireland.

    I'll ask again. In what way is the EU trying to create such conditions?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Oops! Mucked up the quoting/editing, but I ask @Telford again to explain in what way the EU is trying to create conditions which result in a united Ireland.
  • stetson wrote: »
    I suspect the same thing is probably going on with your Facebook acquaintances. They probably don't want to revive the Empire, or even care whether or not it survived in the first place, but it's supposed benefits to the conquered are a convenient weapon-to-hand when faced with anti-racist arguments.

    That's probably a fair call, thanks.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Telford wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement
    The EU doesn’t have the freedom to relax it’s rules just for the U.K. or for Northern Ireland. If it relaxes the rules for them it has to relax it’s rules for all other non-member nations as well. That’s the impact of the WTO rules.
    Rules are there to be made and to be amended

    They did amend the rules, they allowed NI to remain in the customs union and single market without being an EU or Efta member. They also offered the same status to the whole of the UK, to avoid putting a border in the Irish Sea, but the DUP (and most of the Tories) rejected that offer.

    The problem is that no possible amendment would satisfy the DUP, and they are incapable of providing their own suggestions. It's not that they want flexibility over border controls, or border controls to be phased in slowly - they want 0% border controls, for all time, while remaining outside EU trading rules.

    Of the possible options:
    • UK to remain in an Efta-type arrangement - Nope, that's not proper Brexit.
    • Brexit to be effectively 'paused' until a substitute for border controls can be found, and/or both parties agree that the Irish Border is no longer an issue (i.e. the deal in the first Meaningful Vote) - Nope, that's not proper Brexit.
    • Border in the Irish Sea, even a light-touch one - Nope, that's breaking up the UK

    I said elsewhere that if you say No to every available option, and don't provide your own options, then the result is that someone else makes the decision for you. This is what the DUP have found.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Just look at the people who think that the EU is evil, but the British Empire was a wonderful thing that the funny-coloured folk should be thankful for. Remind me which one of the two operated by armed conquest and killing people?

    Are Brexiteers generally imperial nostalgists? I've never gotten the impression it's something they really talk about, beyond maybe " Well, that was a long time ago, so now these minorities need to shut up about it and stop blaming us for all their problems."

    IOW not really actively pro-Empire in the manner of an old-style Colonel Blimp, just not willing to acknowledge it as a negative force still having an impact today.
    There was a large amount of rhetoric about Britain becoming a great trading nation again from the Brexiteers. Which of course harks back to a time when the Empire provided raw materials for British industry and a market for our gadgets - how much trade did the UK engage in with nations not in the Empire where terms of trade were heavily weighted to the benefit of wealthy Brits?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited April 10
    stetson wrote: »
    Just look at the people who think that the EU is evil, but the British Empire was a wonderful thing that the funny-coloured folk should be thankful for. Remind me which one of the two operated by armed conquest and killing people?

    Are Brexiteers generally imperial nostalgists? I've never gotten the impression it's something they really talk about, beyond maybe " Well, that was a long time ago, so now these minorities need to shut up about it and stop blaming us for all their problems."

    IOW not really actively pro-Empire in the manner of an old-style Colonel Blimp, just not willing to acknowledge it as a negative force still having an impact today.
    There was a large amount of rhetoric about Britain becoming a great trading nation again from the Brexiteers. Which of course harks back to a time when the Empire provided raw materials for British industry and a market for our gadgets

    Right. "Hello Worlders" was I believe how one disillusioned ex-Leaver phrased that particular strain of nostalgia, upon her departure from the movement.

    But that's probably not consciously pro-imperial. The Hello Worlder likely has some vague notion that the UK used to be a place that really mattered in the world, and that this erstwhile relevance can be revived by pursuing trade-deals away from the EU.

  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I think there's a sort of Brexit coalition between 'Big Englanders', who dream of a grand union of the English-speaking peoples (and look embarrassed if you ask 'What about India?') - and 'Little Englanders', who in their mind just want to be left alone, i.e., no immigration, no EU law, no foreign military adventures in Iraq or Syria.

    The latter are more numerous among the Brexit rank and file, but the former are more numerous among Tory backbenchers.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited April 10
    Telford wrote: »
    They should stop trying to break up toe UK
    That's a bit rich. You've just said that either Ireland should leave the EU or the EU should let the UK dictate to it how to amend its rules. You're trying to break up the EU or tell it what to do.

    The EU is not trying to break up the UK. Boris Johnson is doing that all by himself.

  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The best solution would have been for the EU to allow the same free movement on the Island and between the rest of the British Isles which existed before the two countries joined the EU
    You're saying that the EU ought to throw Ireland out. Does Ireland get to have an opinion on this?
    I didn't say that.
    The choice for the UK to leave the Customs Union was the UK government's. It should pick up the pieces rather than expect the Irish to do so.
    I am saying that the EU should be less precious about their rules and start being flexible if they are genuinely serious about the Good Friday agreement

    Ah, so you're actually saying the EU should allow itself to be blackmailed into breaking up its founding principles rather than the UK take some responsibility for one of its own constituent nations.

    Not at all. They should stop trying to break up toe UK

    Please explain exactly how the EU is trying to break up the UK.
    Ttying to create conditions which result in a united Ireland.
    Why is that the EU's problem?

    Please answer this question, too.
    I am not clear as to what the question is

    I don't think the EU are at all interested in creating conditions which might result in a United Ireland. Not even accidentally. I think they are interested in protecting the interests of their member states, which is exactly how it should be, of course.

    But even if one of the side-effects of the EU pursuing its own interests is to exacerbate things in Ulster, once again the responsibility for the protection of British sovereignty in Northern Ireland lies with the Government who so glibly promised how easy it would be to negotiate with the EU. In the pursuance of its own interests the UK had no difficulty, apparently, in damaging the Union it used to belong to. There's no real case for the EU to answer here. The damage is largely self-inflicted.

    In fact, the UK government are doing very well all by themselves in creating the conditions for more and more people in Northern Ireland to want to look elsewhere for its sovereignty. Hardline Loyalists and those who believe in a specific principled way in the Union will probably never have their faith shaken in the desirability of Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom. A lot of people have given their lives and their best service, and their loved ones to maintain the Union and won't want to throw that away, or lose their right to the identity they were born with. But it does seem that increasingly more and more people in all parts of the various communities are questioning the value of that identity and the meaning of the Union itself. It does appear that we are rather dispensable, when viewed from across the other side of the Irish Sea. Okay for getting an unpopular Tory bill through Parliament perhaps, but ghosted after the first date. Hey, does that make Ulster GB's side-chick?!
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    Doesn't English nationalism make the union obsolescent? Who wants to be tied to a rotting carcass?

    Alas some of us have no choice.

    The EU is not acting with the intention of breaking up the UK. It is applying its third party trading rules scrupulously, with a fudge that tries to accommodate the All Ireland movement of goods and people enshrined in the Good Friday treaty.

    The parts of the UK that didn't vote for Brexit are now seeing that things are as bad as they feared, and no longer ruling out seceding from the Union to try and get back in the EU as it looks like it'll be years before any politician is elected who will see the light and at least rejoin the customs union.
  • The cynical part of me thinks, if folks wanted hard brexit so much - they should have given dual Irish and British citizenship to anyone living in Northern Ireland and to any Irish or British citizen who requested it by a given date. And then given Northern Ireland to Eire to reunify as one country. It would have been an almighty row. But it is going to be an almighty row anyway just in a different direction. Any unionists who could not bear to live as British citizens with an automatic right to remain in Ireland, could choose to live elsewhere in Britain.

    (Or course I think the best solution would have been to stay in the EU.)

    Anyone from Northern Ireland is already entitled to dual Irish/British citizenship and has been for many years.

    While I have many frustrations with unionism your "ethnic-cleansing-lite" suggestion does not sit well with me.

    I didn’t say it was a good idea.

    I do think the break up of the U.K. more generally is the likely outworking of Brexit. Largely because it has made English nationalism/colonialism much more obvious and offensive.

    I think the break-up of the UK was slowly underway anyway, irrespective of Brexit. However I think inside of the EU this could have been managed more painlessly. Perhaps over the next few decades we might have segued into an ambiguous situation where it was not quite clear whether England and Scotland (say) were one sovereign state or two, but it didn't really matter because both were EU members. After Brexit issues of national sovereignty are much starker and clearer (as advertised, to be fair) and may provoke starker consequences, too.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    They should stop trying to break up toe UK
    That's a bit rich. You've just said that either Ireland should leave the EU or the EU should let the UK dictate to it how to amend its rules. You're trying to break up the EU or tell it what to do.
    I said none of those things.
    The EU is not trying to break up the UK. Boris Johnson is doing that all by himself.
    The EU is trying to make things as difficult as possible for the UK who dared to leave

  • No, they're not. The EU is simply being the EU, following international rules on trade and it's own founding principles.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    They should stop trying to break up toe UK
    That's a bit rich. You've just said that either Ireland should leave the EU or the EU should let the UK dictate to it how to amend its rules. You're trying to break up the EU or tell it what to do.
    I said none of those things.
    The EU is not trying to break up the UK. Boris Johnson is doing that all by himself.
    The EU is trying to make things as difficult as possible for the UK who dared to leave

    I can't see that the EU are punishing the UK for daring to leave, except beyond permitting the UK to suffer the predictable consequences of trying to achieve a hugely complicated political maneuver without having planned for it. The UK dared to leave. That's its right. Even holding a referendum to assess the feeling of the voting population is all well and good. However, it would've been so much more intelligent and practical to have dared to leave after having formed a realistic plan with a competent leadership in place for doing so.
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