Time is a function of the old heaven and earth, or at least earth. Nothing in the Bible tells us whether or not it is a function of the new heaven and earth. The assumption would probably be that the new earth is sufficiently like the old one.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
I think we need a ruling from our Greek scholars as to whether "no more" means it ceases, or it won't be added to. I think a lot of us on this thread are assuming it means that pain etc. will cease. Imagine telling someone who is in constant pain (say from a spinal injury), "Well your pain won't go away in the next life, but at least it won't get worse."
Bill_Noble God promises healing, but that will take time.
No, it won't! Time is a function of the creation that has passed away. Eternity is a different state altogether.
No, Entropy passes away. Time still exists and passes but the arrow of time is no longer bound to increasing entropy (which causes the change and decay of all things)
Bill_Noble God promises healing, but that will take time.
No, it won't! Time is a function of the creation that has passed away. Eternity is a different state altogether.
No, Entropy passes away. Time still exists and passes but the arrow of time is no longer bound to increasing entropy (which causes the change and decay of all things)
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
Bill_Noble The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time
No! No! No! The whole point about "eternal life" is that there is no time.
If there’s no passing of time, how will we hold a conversation? How does music or song work without time? Does everything in eternity happen simultaneously? If I blink, do I miss it?
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
The whole point about "eternal life" is that there is no time.
That may or may not be true. The Greek AIUI translates as 'life of the age', where 'the age' may be a linguistic usage that connotes a perfect example of the type of thing designated by the noun. In a different context it might mean just the next phase in human history. You wouldn't read 'without time' into it without a background of hellenic metaphysical argument.
I don't object to hellenic elements in Christianity on principle, but there's at least a good argument for saying that everything that we can imagine without time is more like death than life as we know it. It is closer to imagine eternal life as like time bound life than as like any imaginable alternative.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Luke 14:21-24. What is interesting about this parable is the use of compulsion. This ties in with Luke 7:48-50 where, much to everyone’s surprise/shock, Jesus simply declares forgiveness of an individual unilaterally without a prayer or traditional sacrifice being involved.
In spite of John 20:23 many keen churchgoers seem to reject this sort of thing. It’s part of a depressing trend I’ve seen in some worship leaders who seem to think that, quote; “we invite the Holy Spirit” or “we release the Holy Spirit”.
*sigh*
Listening to that, anyone would think that the curtain of the temple was ripped apart on the day of Pentecost rather than on Good Friday. Christians are only A temple of the Holy Spirit.
Just as Jesus declared forgiveness unilaterally without reference to His disciples, so the Holy Spirit a free agent to continue this same work without input/interference/intercession from Christians. This complements the Great Commission, it does not replace it since even if Christians are always on message and on mission they are always too few: Matthew 7:14.
In short, more people will be saved by Jesus unilaterally than by Christians.
I know why he's known as doubting Thomas. Whether that is a good summary of his persona is debatable. What you haven't told us is who, in your opinion, named him 'Doubting Thomas'. That certainly isn't mentioned in Scripture.
I do not know who first named him Doubting Thomas.
According to Merriam Webster, 1883 is the first known recorded use of the phrase 'Doubting Thomas'. Could have been a common oral reference, of course, for a good while before that. But I must admit I was surprised there seems to be no earlier known record of its use. And it seems medieval art had a tradition named 'The Incredulity of Thomas' when portraying the saint. So he was certainly given the reputation for being incredulous, in ancient Christian tradition.
I always think Thomas was a very helpful character. He was the guy who wanted to go with Jesus back to Bethany to help the sick Lazarus, even if it meant death. And in John 14, at the last supper, he was the only one that had the guts to say to Jesus 'we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way', when Jesus was talking about going away and preparing a place and 'where I am you will be also' etc. As if the others knew what Jesus was on about! And to which Jesus replied: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.... ' No doubt Jesus could've found many ways to have made that point, but it just seems right that it was a natural and eternal response to a very practical, even brave, question.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
And in John 14, at the last supper, he was the only one that had the guts to say to Jesus 'we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way', when Jesus was talking about going away and preparing a place and 'where I am you will be also' etc.
No, that was Philip. Here is John 14:8
Philip said to, him, " Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
What does "rebelled against me" even mean? You can't rebel against someone you think doesn't exist, and everyone I know who believes in God also thinks they're on his side.
Seems to me Scripture is full of people who rebel against God, starting with Adam and Eve. It also seems like many of them, like many since them, have convinced themselves that they’re on God’s side, or that God is on their side. Or, frankly, that it doesn’t matter.
That said and for what it’s worth, the Hebrew inter-linear text I consulted translates that part of Isaiah as “those who have transgressed against me” rather than “those who have rebelled against me.” Mileage may vary as to how much of a difference that amounts to. In my particular stream of Christianity, I’m quite used to hearing and speaking of failing to follow and trust God, and of failing to love our neighbors as ourselves, as “rebelling” against God, much as children rebel against their parents in big ways and in small ways.
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
How do you come to that conclusion? It's about people who mourn in this life
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
His incarnation is judgement free. His return, not so much.
2 Timothy 4:1
Christians tend to think that the afterlife is “going to heaven when you die”. It isn’t. We all die and stay dead until Jesus returns and reforges heaven and earth and judges everyone. It’s the fulfilment of our request in the Lord’s Prayer “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
His incarnation is judgement free. His return, not so much.
2 Timothy 4:1
Christians tend to think that the afterlife is “going to heaven when you die”. It isn’t. We all die and stay dead until Jesus returns and reforges heaven and earth and judges everyone. It’s the fulfilment of our request in the Lord’s Prayer “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
Except scripture is not clear on that, neither is the historic understanding of the church. The thief on the cross is told he will be in paradise today. Hebrews talks about the "great cloud of witnesses" that surround us. How can they that are dead be witness to anything?
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
So we will be transformed into people who feel fine? Which is it?
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
So we will be transformed into people who feel fine? Which is it?
Whichever works for people. If you want transformation, it can be transformation. If you want recovery, it can be recovery.
I am assuming that freewill operates in the next life as it does here and that you and I will still be ourselves.
His incarnation is judgement free. His return, not so much.
2 Timothy 4:1
Christians tend to think that the afterlife is “going to heaven when you die”. It isn’t. We all die and stay dead until Jesus returns and reforges heaven and earth and judges everyone. It’s the fulfilment of our request in the Lord’s Prayer “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
Except scripture is not clear on that, neither is the historic understanding of the church. The thief on the cross is told he will be in paradise today. Hebrews talks about the "great cloud of witnesses" that surround us. How can they that are dead be witness to anything?
Death is described as the “sleep of death”. Since sleep can be disturbed I suppose that a better term would be “the general anaesthetic of death”.
One moment, there you are counting backwards from ten and the next instant you are waking up in Recovery. The minutes or hours that elapse do not register.
Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross are simply a description of how the man would perceive the rest of his day. For him, it will still feel like “today” i.e. the same day as his death, even though centuries of history will have passed.
This also ties in with the Jewish concept of Sheol - the grave - where there is no cognition or awareness e.g. Ecclesiastes 9:10
And for those of us who don’t know what those passages are off the tops of our heads, and who aren’t in a place where we can easily look them up?
Type the references into your preferred internet browser, e.g. Google.
As @Dafyd said, this is asking your readers to do your work for you. If you can’t be bothered to hyperlink the references or to provide either quotes or short description—e.g., “Luke 14:21–24 (the parable of the great dinner)”—why would you expect anyone else to bother with your post? Especially when your post contains multiple references that would have to be looked up?
As it is, just dropping verse citations without anything else comes across as lazy proof-texting.
I enjoyed Easter this year. It was a good time for quieter than usual contemplation of an event that I still find difficult to deal with. We visited a friend's church on line where we could rely on thoughtful preaching, calm celebration and music with some substance to it. It's the contemplation I find important - the usual gala atmosphere doesn't help me through it very much, and the banging and wailing of our own church band seems massively irrelevant and distracting.
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
So we will be transformed into people who feel fine? Which is it?
Whichever works for people. If you want transformation, it can be transformation. If you want recovery, it can be recovery.
I am assuming that freewill operates in the next life as it does here and that you and I will still be ourselves.
My freewill doesn't enable me to be transformed in this life. Nor can I decide to step off my window ledge and fly. "Freewill" is an ill-defined word to do this much work.
Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.
Thank you @Bill_Noble .
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
So we will be transformed into people who feel fine? Which is it?
Whichever works for people. If you want transformation, it can be transformation. If you want recovery, it can be recovery.
I am assuming that freewill operates in the next life as it does here and that you and I will still be ourselves.
My freewill doesn't enable me to be transformed in this life. Nor can I decide to step off my window ledge and fly. "Freewill" is an ill-defined word to do this much work.
In the afterlife you will have the advantage of Christ-likeness.
But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2
I assume that if you want to try out flying, you will be able to.
Bill_Noble: I am assuming that freewill operates in the next life as it does here
That is a very, very big assumption. What do we understand by a will that is free? What freedom of will is there when faced with the beatific sight?
I imagine that after the initial shock and awe, we all get more familiar with our surroundings.
The Church will be the Bride of Christ, but who wants a bride who stands transfixed, gawping at her surroundings and can’t say anything other than “I just can’t believe you built all this!”
Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?
Only that makes Zero sense to me
In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)
Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?
Random thought: if the eschaton is about Christ reconciling all things to himself, rather than being a fixed state (or at least a sudden fixed one) Heaven might have an element of transition attached (at least on arrival therein).
Perhaps there's more Purgatory in Heaven than one might assume, if Purgatory is seen as dealing with ('healing') all the scars, self-inflicted and otherwise.
Comments
It is safe to say that I am not in agreement with your conclusions.
Sounding reminiscent of purgatory.
Or a fudge between the attributes of God and some nitpicking ( not being rude ) between texts to make it fit a pre decided purpose.
@mousethief example helps to explore this further. As there is nothing nobel about pain- physical or mental.
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
There is healing in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
No, Entropy passes away. Time still exists and passes but the arrow of time is no longer bound to increasing entropy (which causes the change and decay of all things)
No! No! No! The whole point about "eternal life" is that there is no time.
Exactly Bill.
Time is a function of being.
No problem 🙂
Not really a purgatory thing at all. Humans are the only creatures who have “travelled” from first to the new creation. Yes, as Paul points out, we will all be changed and he also clearly believes that this “mystery” will all happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” which has the appeal of a nice instant solution.
I suppose I’m thinking more along the lines of the Beatitudes; those who mourn will be comforted, not transformed into people who feel fine.
If there’s no passing of time, how will we hold a conversation? How does music or song work without time? Does everything in eternity happen simultaneously? If I blink, do I miss it?
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
I don't object to hellenic elements in Christianity on principle, but there's at least a good argument for saying that everything that we can imagine without time is more like death than life as we know it. It is closer to imagine eternal life as like time bound life than as like any imaginable alternative.
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
In spite of John 20:23 many keen churchgoers seem to reject this sort of thing. It’s part of a depressing trend I’ve seen in some worship leaders who seem to think that, quote; “we invite the Holy Spirit” or “we release the Holy Spirit”.
*sigh*
Listening to that, anyone would think that the curtain of the temple was ripped apart on the day of Pentecost rather than on Good Friday. Christians are only A temple of the Holy Spirit.
Just as Jesus declared forgiveness unilaterally without reference to His disciples, so the Holy Spirit a free agent to continue this same work without input/interference/intercession from Christians. This complements the Great Commission, it does not replace it since even if Christians are always on message and on mission they are always too few: Matthew 7:14.
In short, more people will be saved by Jesus unilaterally than by Christians.
Thank God.
I do not know who first named him Doubting Thomas.
I always think Thomas was a very helpful character. He was the guy who wanted to go with Jesus back to Bethany to help the sick Lazarus, even if it meant death. And in John 14, at the last supper, he was the only one that had the guts to say to Jesus 'we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way', when Jesus was talking about going away and preparing a place and 'where I am you will be also' etc. As if the others knew what Jesus was on about! And to which Jesus replied: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.... ' No doubt Jesus could've found many ways to have made that point, but it just seems right that it was a natural and eternal response to a very practical, even brave, question.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Was Jesus lying in John 3.16 ?
No, that was Philip. Here is John 14:8
That said and for what it’s worth, the Hebrew inter-linear text I consulted translates that part of Isaiah as “those who have transgressed against me” rather than “those who have rebelled against me.” Mileage may vary as to how much of a difference that amounts to. In my particular stream of Christianity, I’m quite used to hearing and speaking of failing to follow and trust God, and of failing to love our neighbors as ourselves, as “rebelling” against God, much as children rebel against their parents in big ways and in small ways.
So we're going to mourn for all eternity? And that's "heaven" or "the Kingdom of God"? We've been sold a bill of goods.
How do you come to that conclusion? It's about people who mourn in this life
Where was Jesus speaking in John 3:16?
Probably Galilee.
Deleted by me because I thought it better not to post what I'd written - but then could not get rid of it completely.
No of course not. Healing is available in the next life (Rev 22:1-2)
Type the references into your preferred internet browser, e.g. Google.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
His incarnation is judgement free. His return, not so much.
2 Timothy 4:1
Christians tend to think that the afterlife is “going to heaven when you die”. It isn’t. We all die and stay dead until Jesus returns and reforges heaven and earth and judges everyone. It’s the fulfilment of our request in the Lord’s Prayer “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
Except scripture is not clear on that, neither is the historic understanding of the church. The thief on the cross is told he will be in paradise today. Hebrews talks about the "great cloud of witnesses" that surround us. How can they that are dead be witness to anything?
So we will be transformed into people who feel fine? Which is it?
Whichever works for people. If you want transformation, it can be transformation. If you want recovery, it can be recovery.
I am assuming that freewill operates in the next life as it does here and that you and I will still be ourselves.
(Googling on a smart phone when you can't keep multiple windows open is a hassle.)
Death is described as the “sleep of death”. Since sleep can be disturbed I suppose that a better term would be “the general anaesthetic of death”.
One moment, there you are counting backwards from ten and the next instant you are waking up in Recovery. The minutes or hours that elapse do not register.
Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross are simply a description of how the man would perceive the rest of his day. For him, it will still feel like “today” i.e. the same day as his death, even though centuries of history will have passed.
This also ties in with the Jewish concept of Sheol - the grave - where there is no cognition or awareness e.g. Ecclesiastes 9:10
That is a very, very big assumption. What do we understand by a will that is free? What freedom of will is there when faced with the beatific sight?
Only that makes Zero sense to me
As it is, just dropping verse citations without anything else comes across as lazy proof-texting.
My freewill doesn't enable me to be transformed in this life. Nor can I decide to step off my window ledge and fly. "Freewill" is an ill-defined word to do this much work.
In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)
Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?
In the afterlife you will have the advantage of Christ-likeness.
But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2
I assume that if you want to try out flying, you will be able to.
I imagine that after the initial shock and awe, we all get more familiar with our surroundings.
The Church will be the Bride of Christ, but who wants a bride who stands transfixed, gawping at her surroundings and can’t say anything other than “I just can’t believe you built all this!”
My apologies. Will do.
Random thought: if the eschaton is about Christ reconciling all things to himself, rather than being a fixed state (or at least a sudden fixed one) Heaven might have an element of transition attached (at least on arrival therein).
Perhaps there's more Purgatory in Heaven than one might assume, if Purgatory is seen as dealing with ('healing') all the scars, self-inflicted and otherwise.