Why Easter is s...

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  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?

    Only that makes Zero sense to me

    In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)

    Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?

    Personally, I really can't imagine realistically what heavenly or eternal life is like. But I think it's as reasonable an idea as any other that part of the experience of that eternal life is learning the joy and satisfaction of using God's healing processes, and working with him, finding resolutions and reconcilements that evaded us in the old creation and 'working through' hurts and wounds, even sins to find the freedom so few of us find in this life. If we arrived in the heavenly places instantly 'perfect', somehow that would seem to negate whatever need there was for us to be human's journeying and developing our way through life in the first place? It sounds a bit like a sort of Purgatory, maybe. But not quite so narrow or individualistic. More a kind of conscious and positive collaboration to find that fulfilment with the Creator that Christ was able to demonstrate.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited April 16
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    Then I decline it if it involves a human sacrifice for my human condition. That's my choice. I want nothing to do with Satan as God aka Mother in The Null or Cthulhu.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.

    Thanks to that person we know all will be well for all.
  • Bill_NobleBill_Noble Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?

    Only that makes Zero sense to me

    In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)

    Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?

    Random thought: if the eschaton is about Christ reconciling all things to himself, rather than being a fixed state (or at least a sudden fixed one) Heaven might have an element of transition attached (at least on arrival therein).

    Perhaps there's more Purgatory in Heaven than one might assume, if Purgatory is seen as dealing with ('healing') all the scars, self-inflicted and otherwise.

    Thank you, yes. The idea of transition or acclimatisation is helpful.

    But I don’t see it as a purgatorial process. In the new heaven/earth the people who have passed through judgement are Christ-like. And yet healing is provided for the (former members of many) nations.
  • Bill_NobleBill_Noble Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?

    Only that makes Zero sense to me

    In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)

    Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?

    Personally, I really can't imagine realistically what heavenly or eternal life is like. But I think it's as reasonable an idea as any other that part of the experience of that eternal life is learning the joy and satisfaction of using God's healing processes, and working with him, finding resolutions and reconcilements that evaded us in the old creation and 'working through' hurts and wounds, even sins to find the freedom so few of us find in this life. If we arrived in the heavenly places instantly 'perfect', somehow that would seem to negate whatever need there was for us to be human's journeying and developing our way through life in the first place? It sounds a bit like a sort of Purgatory, maybe. But not quite so narrow or individualistic. More a kind of conscious and positive collaboration to find that fulfilment with the Creator that Christ was able to demonstrate.

    Thank you.

    I don’t see it as some sort of purgatory since sin will have all been dealt with. But something related to fulfilment and collaboration is helpful.

    One of the odd things about the resurrected and ascended Jesus is that He chooses to continue to look like Jesus; wounds and all. So as well as “making all things new” His physical appearance in the new heaven/earth will always be a recognition and acknowledgement of the people lost and the sins of a world that is now irretrievably gone.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.
  • Okay, I've been staying out of it (pneumonia brain etc.) but no, I can't possibly imagine it. The new heavens and new earth with grieving, loss, crying, pain? Nope. I can't see that at all. We're told otherwise, and after a few years of multiple deaths here, IMHO severe un-redeemable grief is a pretty effective hell in itself, regardless of your surroundings. Just nope.

    That bit about the leaves being for the healing of the nations? You've got to look at context. This occurs in a very, very symbolic passage about the tree of life (which though singular appears to be growing on both sides of the river at the same time, how about that), lo and behold:
    Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. Rev. 22:1-3

    Given the obvious weirdness with space, you've got no grounds to complain if there's equal weirdness with time--as in, when precisely this healing takes place, and whether it is gradual or sudden. And the tree of life (singular or plural, who knows?) is a well-known symbol running through the Bible from Genesis to ... er, here... and intersecting the cross at the very heart of everything. THAT is the true tree of life, which brings healing to the nations--and if you want to get all timey about it, that was 2000 years ago.

    It bears fruit (boy, does it ever--some billions of redeemed human beings by now, with the twelve crops being a probable reference both to the twelve tribes of Israel (of which Christians are adoptees) and to the twelve apostles of the Lamb, to whom we owe our knowledge of the faith.

    It bears leaves for the healing of the nations--and though this can be explained in a zillion different ways, surely the easiest is to take the leaves (and remember, medication then was very largely herbal) as any actions-of-blessing that flow from the Christian church-in-all-her-members and ultimately, from the cross--that is, from Jesus himself. Within human history so far, those would include all Christian efforts to establish hospitals, set up schools, establish libraries, help people who are poor, insane, disabled, disenfranchised, enslaved, etc., and so on and so forth. Those things ARE healing for the nations, and God only knows how those actions (which are of the Holy Spirit working through Christ's people) will continue to grow and develop in the future--whether it's this-timely future, or that-eternity future.

    Which brings us to yet another problem--we don't any of us know what the fuck we're talking about, time-wise, when we consider the Kingdom come in its fullness. Is it just endless duration of the same timestream we're in already? Is it a parallel timestream, either to earth's or to hell's? Is it something entirely unlike the experience of time as we know it--and if so, how can we safely pontificate about it? For all I know, eternity may be to our present timestream as a sphere is to a line--several dimensions more and other and very nearly incomprehensible to a person who knows nothing but linearism.

    Which leaves us with nothing to rely on (safely, that is) but what we're told--that there will be no more crying or pain or curse. God will put an end to all that. Asking questions like "But how could anybody be happy if they knew that their relatives were being tortured in hell" is probably a deep misunderstanding on our side, but not one that we're likely to get an answer to--probably because we don't yet have all the pieces to comprehend the true situation. (Rather like my dog's ideas about what has happened to my son who is away at University. At first she decided he was dead, and treated his reappearance as a resurrection (I now have a reference for that look the painters put on Mary Magdalene's face, which used to seem addled to me); after he returned a couple of times, she seems to have decided that he is at the kennel, and we will pick him up again at some point. I can't possibly explain any better to her, even if I spoke dog, so we're just leaving it there.)

    In the end, it comes down to one's personal knowledge of God--I mean, your sense of him as a person, what kind of personality he has, whether he is trustworthy, is X the sort of thing he would do, and so forth. I don't understand a lot of things, but I am certain from past interactions with him that God would never create a new-heavens-and-new-earth that involved eternal grieving and suffering. Why bother, you know? We've got that already.
    And as for the hell thing--well, I'm also certain that he will do / has done everything possible to keep people out of hell. He is not arbitrary or wantonly destructive. The cross alone tells me he cares, and the lengths he will go to in order to prevent it. For how it all works out in the end, I'll have to wait.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    And as for the hell thing--well, I'm also certain that he will do / has done everything possible to keep people out of hell. He is not arbitrary or wantonly destructive. The cross alone tells me he cares, and the lengths he will go to in order to prevent it. For how it all works out in the end, I'll have to wait.

    With this I'd agree. The problem I often have is people erect barriers - believe this, do that, think this, accept the other - and turn the whole thing into Kissing Hank's Arse.(http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-ass) Often then denying that's anything like what they believe, only to restate it again in ways leaving me again unable to slide a fag paper between what they say and Kissing Hank's Arse.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    And as for the hell thing--well, I'm also certain that he will do / has done everything possible to keep people out of hell. He is not arbitrary or wantonly destructive. The cross alone tells me he cares, and the lengths he will go to in order to prevent it. For how it all works out in the end, I'll have to wait.

    With this I'd agree. The problem I often have is people erect barriers - believe this, do that, think this, accept the other - and turn the whole thing into Kissing Hank's Arse.(http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-ass) Often then denying that's anything like what they believe, only to restate it again in ways leaving me again unable to slide a fag paper between what they say and Kissing Hank's Arse.

    Bliss. Absolute bliss.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 16
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus

    You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    What @Lamb Chopped said.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    And as for the hell thing--well, I'm also certain that he will do / has done everything possible to keep people out of hell. He is not arbitrary or wantonly destructive. The cross alone tells me he cares, and the lengths he will go to in order to prevent it. For how it all works out in the end, I'll have to wait.

    With this I'd agree. The problem I often have is people erect barriers - believe this, do that, think this, accept the other - and turn the whole thing into Kissing Hank's Arse.(http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-ass) Often then denying that's anything like what they believe, only to restate it again in ways leaving me again unable to slide a fag paper between what they say and Kissing Hank's Arse.

    Well, it's hard to stop stupid.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Personally, I really can't imagine realistically what heavenly or eternal life is like. But I think it's as reasonable an idea as any other that part of the experience of that eternal life is learning the joy and satisfaction of using God's healing processes, and working with him, finding resolutions and reconcilements that evaded us in the old creation and 'working through' hurts and wounds, even sins to find the freedom so few of us find in this life. If we arrived in the heavenly places instantly 'perfect', somehow that would seem to negate whatever need there was for us to be human's journeying and developing our way through life in the first place? It sounds a bit like a sort of Purgatory, maybe. But not quite so narrow or individualistic. More a kind of conscious and positive collaboration to find that fulfilment with the Creator that Christ was able to demonstrate.

    We carry our life's wounds with us and they are then healed, not lost on the way.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus

    You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?

    No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited April 17
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.

    Thanks to that person we know all will be well for all.

    Yes.

    But not details, like a travel brochure.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?

    Only that makes Zero sense to me

    In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)

    Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?

    Personally, I really can't imagine realistically what heavenly or eternal life is like. But I think it's as reasonable an idea as any other that part of the experience of that eternal life is learning the joy and satisfaction of using God's healing processes, and working with him, finding resolutions and reconcilements that evaded us in the old creation and 'working through' hurts and wounds, even sins to find the freedom so few of us find in this life. If we arrived in the heavenly places instantly 'perfect', somehow that would seem to negate whatever need there was for us to be human's journeying and developing our way through life in the first place? It sounds a bit like a sort of Purgatory, maybe. But not quite so narrow or individualistic. More a kind of conscious and positive collaboration to find that fulfilment with the Creator that Christ was able to demonstrate.

    Thank you.

    I don’t see it as some sort of purgatory since sin will have all been dealt with. But something related to fulfilment and collaboration is helpful.

    One of the odd things about the resurrected and ascended Jesus is that He chooses to continue to look like Jesus; wounds and all. So as well as “making all things new” His physical appearance in the new heaven/earth will always be a recognition and acknowledgement of the people lost and the sins of a world that is now irretrievably gone.

    Actually, since Mary Magdalene, and then the walkers to Emmaus had some difficulty in recognising Jesus at first, that doesn't entirely work.
  • GarasuGarasu Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.

    We keep saying this, but what about Lazarus? The widow's son? The Shunammite woman's son? The guy buried with Elisha? The widow of Nain's son? Jairus' daughter? Tabitha/Dorcas? Eutychus?

    According to the Bible, it's hardly worth dying. You're really quite likely to come back to life...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Just so I ve got this Crystal Clear @Bill_Noble , you are still quite content to say that In Your Humble Opinion there Will be mourning in heaven?

    Only that makes Zero sense to me

    In the depiction of the afterlife why are the leaves on the tree of life available for healing? (Revelation 22:1-2)

    Why is the means of healing provided if there is no need of it?

    Personally, I really can't imagine realistically what heavenly or eternal life is like. But I think it's as reasonable an idea as any other that part of the experience of that eternal life is learning the joy and satisfaction of using God's healing processes, and working with him, finding resolutions and reconcilements that evaded us in the old creation and 'working through' hurts and wounds, even sins to find the freedom so few of us find in this life. If we arrived in the heavenly places instantly 'perfect', somehow that would seem to negate whatever need there was for us to be human's journeying and developing our way through life in the first place? It sounds a bit like a sort of Purgatory, maybe. But not quite so narrow or individualistic. More a kind of conscious and positive collaboration to find that fulfilment with the Creator that Christ was able to demonstrate.

    Perfect @Anselmina. No parentheses.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.

    Thanks to that person we know all will be well for all.

    Yes.

    But not details, like a travel brochure.

    Nice.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus

    You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?

    No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.

    No phenomenology there then.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited April 17
    Can we have some basic respect for genre here? The book called Revelation is mystical, ecstatic poetry. It is not an eye-witness report, it is not a divine policy statement. It can drive speciulation and meditation, and can certainly inspire, but all of this confident argumentation is just nauseating. Nauseating because if this is the best that the Christian faith has to offer, it is sunk because this is just beneath any kind of contempt intellectually. These statements have no modesty, no consciousness of their own limitations.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Can we have some basic respect for genre here? The book called Revelation is mystical, ecstatic poetry. It is not an eye-witness report, it is not a divine policy statement. It can drive speciulation and meditation, and can certainly inspire, but all of this confident argumentation is just nauseating. Nauseating because if this is the best that the Christian faith has to offer, it is sunk because this is just beneath any kind of contempt intellectually. These statements have no modesty, no consciousness of their own limitations.

    Indeed, no hermeneutic phenomenology.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Garasu wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    Given that we only know of one person who has come back, and he said very little, all this hypothesising about what happens on death is only that. We don't know. We can't know.

    We keep saying this, but what about Lazarus? The widow's son? The Shunammite woman's son? The guy buried with Elisha? The widow of Nain's son? Jairus' daughter? Tabitha/Dorcas? Eutychus?

    According to the Bible, it's hardly worth dying. You're really quite likely to come back to life...

    They are not quite the same. I believe the theological term for all of the above is resuscitation: the people quoted in your example are said to have come back to this life, and their mortal body, and presumably had to go through the tedious business of dying all over again (I've always felt especially sorry for Lazarus in this respect).

    The resurrected Christ, however, appears to have a different type of body, much-discussed here over the years (one of the threads I most regret not being able to find was called something like 'what happened to all the fish?' [i.e. that Jesus ate post-resurrection]). We are told he ascended in that resurrection body, no more dying required.

    (Of course we can now go on to speculate about Elijah and Enoch and what happened to their mortal bodies...)
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited April 17
    Can we have some basic respect for genre here? The book called Revelation is mystical, ecstatic poetry. It is not an eye-witness report, it is not a divine policy statement. It can drive speciulation and meditation, and can certainly inspire, but all of this confident argumentation is just nauseating. Nauseating because if this is the best that the Christian faith has to offer, it is sunk because this is just beneath any kind of contempt intellectually. These statements have no modesty, no consciousness of their own limitations.

    Nervous ramble follows/

    I personally find that I trip myself up quite a bit in this respect. My gut beliefs haven't caught up with my intellectual reasoning, and I'm not sure I want them to, or that they should.

    Respect for genre yes, but is poetic genre really all that's there? If "behold, I make all things new" is just wishful thinking on the part of John suffering from heatstroke and/or the effects of retsina on Patmos, we're on a wild goose chase, aren't we? How many of "God's promises" that we turn to in Scripture are just speculative?

    But it can't be just that. Paul rests his whole argument on the reality of transformation after death following his vision of the risen Christ (1 Corinthians 15). It's reasoned arguement there, not poetic or merely delusional.

    Similarly, in John 6, Jesus' whole discourse is about the promise of ressurection at the last day by contrast with the tangible, spectacular yet finite miracle of the manna, which for all its supernaturalness didn't keep them from dying in the end. If Christ offers no more hope beyond the grave than manna, we're up shit creek.

    We have Jesus' word (well, okay, his reported words), and supporting argument, that there is more to all this than this life itself. I really can't make his message and the surrounding testimony make sense any other way. And him having said that, it's hardly surprising that we try to unpick the eschatalogical/theological/ethical implications.

    /nervous ramble ends
  • To me, it is axiomatic that they are all speculative. Since my faith is mystically based, with a sacramental/ecclesial support, and only then supported biblically, my statement gives me no more pause than any other element of my faith. That's why the whole bit about "fear and trembling" is essential to my experience of God, and 98% of Kerygmania is a total closed book to me. I simply don't start where that community does, and none of our words are meaningful to each other.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    To me, it is axiomatic that they are all speculative.
    Fair enough, but as you appear to acknowledge, mystical experience isn't enough, is it? Death, like taxes, is pretty objective; no amount of mystical experience is going to stop it from happening. And if there's any substance to mystical experience, it ought to be discernible at least to some extent. At least that's what I understand from the Bible...
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited April 17
    More rambling.

    The Gospel of John appears almost comedic in its repeated depiction of people seemingly incapable of taking Jesus' words figuratively. ('How can a man crawl back into his mother's womb?' 'Eat your flesh? Eww!').

    Of course there is a symbolic aspect to Jesus' discourse.

    And yet, the very fact of the Incarnation points to substance; something more than just figurative. In John 6, Jesus seems to be saying that despite being tangible, the manna was in fact merely (pre) figurative; and that by contrast his figurative words are pointing to something really tangible beyond this mortal life, something to which his incarnate person creates a link, anchored in history, space, and time, as demonstrated by the resurrection.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Can we have some basic respect for genre here? The book called Revelation is mystical, ecstatic poetry.
    This is a bit of a tangent, but I do wish people wouldn't use the word 'poetry' to mean 'not factual writing'. A Pilgrim's Progress is not a description of any physical geography, but it isn't poetry (mostly - it contains at least one poem). I don't read Greek but by all accounts it's much better written than most of Revelation. Anyway, I don't know that Revelation is particularly mystical or ecstatic. We might not know what the writer was on about, but I suspect he did.
    The problems with Revelation are only partly solved by recognising that the description of the beast with seven heads and ten horns is not a contribution to zoology.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Not real world zoology anyway...
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    The problems with Revelation are only partly solved by recognising that the description of the beast with seven heads and ten horns is not a contribution to zoology.

    Preparing a series on Revelation a while back, I idly wondered what the monstruous horse-like beast in Rev 9:18-might be if it wasn't a cruise missile as affirmed by the likes of Hal Late Great Planet Earth Lindsey: "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulphur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury." Typing a neutral description into an image search produced a chimera, which makes perfect sense to me.

    Exegesis by Googling.



  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Can we have some basic respect for genre here? The book called Revelation is mystical, ecstatic poetry.
    A Pilgrim's Progress is not a description of any physical geography, but it isn't poetry (mostly - it contains at least one poem).
    Point of order. Pilgrims Progress is based on Bunyan's travels around Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire working as a travelling tinker. Giant Despair's Castle is based on Castle Ashby and the Slough of Despond either on Elstow pit or Rsuhden.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.

    But we're not Jews.
  • To me, it is axiomatic that they are all speculative. Since my faith is mystically based, with a sacramental/ecclesial support, and only then supported biblically, my statement gives me no more pause than any other element of my faith. That's why the whole bit about "fear and trembling" is essential to my experience of God, and 98% of Kerygmania is a total closed book to me. I simply don't start where that community does, and none of our words are meaningful to each other.

    In that case your words can't mean anything to me, anyone else or perhaps even yourself.

    FWIW I see Revelation as poetry and illustrative of real life/events. The hard bit is working out which is which: that's why I start with the bible, take a dose of mysticism and only then look to the ecclesial/sacramental. Mind you, because I believe all of life is sacramental - the earth is the Lord's and everything in it - I suppose you could say I start there.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.

    But we're not Jews.

    If Jesus' message had consisted of a list of hygiene instructions for all humankind, I've little doubt you'd be making snide remarks about how legalistic it all was.
  • Is there a firm line between poetry and prose? Can something be poetic without being poetry? I'm thinking of things like speeches, where rhythm and word choice are chosen for impact and emotion. The emotional charge of MLK's "I have been to the mountain top" would be lessened if it were "I have been to the top of the mountain" which is a more normal word order. I know if I'm writing words to be spoken aloud, like for a sermon, I structure my sentences and choose different vocabulary than if I'm writing text to be read.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.

    But we're not Jews.

    If Jesus' message had consisted of a list of hygiene instructions for all humankind, I've little doubt you'd be making snide remarks about how legalistic it all was.
    .

    He didn’t have to: pre-empted by that arch-sanitarian Moses

  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.

    But we're not Jews.

    If Jesus' message had consisted of a list of hygiene instructions for all humankind, I've little doubt you'd be making snide remarks about how legalistic it all was.

    Yeah, but millions would have escaped death. Think of all the women who've died in childbirth through sepsis.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    And still do. Gloves weren’t thought of in Moses’ day.
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    And still do. Gloves weren’t thought of in Moses’ day.

    But why do you think Jesus didn't tell people to wash their hands?
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    He probably could not be arsed to state the bleedin’ obvious to his fellow Jews
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    He probably could not be arsed to state the bleedin’ obvious to his fellow Jews

    What about non-Jews?
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Apart from the Samaritan woman at the well and Pontius Pilate Jesus is not on the record for chatting with non-Jews....
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Er, they were Jews. Jews were persecuted for causing the Black Death because they didn't get it as much, due to the incidental hygiene in their ritual ablutions.

    But we're not Jews.

    So how would Jesus have told us? His audience didn't need telling. As a codicil to the Great Commission? 'And tell them not to shit in their drinking water.'
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Not real world zoology anyway...

    If only Jesus had told people to wash their hands, think how many deaths would have been avoided.

    Well, sure. And if he had had a discourse on Vitamin C, and maybe one on germ theory, and so on and so forth...

    Jesus is even more hard-nosed than I am (duh!) about keeping to his primary purpose in life. Which as he saw it was "to seek and save the lost" and "to give his life as a ransom for many." I rather expect that the temptation to veer off this track to fix various shit was one of the hardest things he faced--see for example his tendency to run himself into the ground healing people (Matthew 14 and etc.). Adding instruction in basic health, science, architecture, geology, etc. is a bit much to ask. And where do you draw the line?

    Leaving aside the fac that the Jews were probably the most sanitary people around at that time...
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus

    You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?

    No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.

    No phenomenology there then.

    Certainly not !!
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.

    I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus

    You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?

    No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.

    No phenomenology there then.

    Certainly not !!

    That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited April 18
    Sojourner wrote: »
    He probably could not be arsed to state the bleedin’ obvious to his fellow Jews

    What about non-Jews?

    This all looks like you don't think He was fully human. And carried on, culturally, as if He were, in the resurrection. What should He have done about the biggest infectious killer of humanity?
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