That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited January 20
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Certainly winter oranges in the UK - and indeed northern Europe generally - would have been a real luxury. None grown locally and insufficient transport to bring in oranges grown elsewhere, then distribute them for retail sale.

    I would be wary of the 'none', I would say were expensive and therefore rare to grow locally as quite a few stately homes had an Orangery

    Of course. There may be some in Tasmania, but I'm not aware of any others here
  • Yes, it can be quite a short service - not a Bad Thing with lots of excited Kidz in church...

    IIRC, ours consisted of 3 well-known carols, the Christingle Song, a short Bible reading, a brief homily, and some responsorial prayers led by some of the Yoof.

    Lighting of the Christingles took place before the singing of the Christingle Song:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnJ2XKPD5FE

    We used to sing this a tad quicker...
  • It should be said that other Christingle songs/hymns are available. At our place we sing God, whose love is everwhere by Timothy Dudley-Smith or Round orange by Elizabeth Consett.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 20
    Indeed. The one I quoted is in our default hymnbook (Mayhew).
  • Wash your mouth out with soap.
  • Sorry about that. It wasn't my choice, Guv, honest...
  • Rufus T FireflyRufus T Firefly Shipmate
    edited January 21
    The church where I was a curate used to have really big Christingle services - 400+ people. All of Saturday would be spent making the damn things in the church centre. Then the service would be held in a local private school's sports hall. At the end of the service, we all had to stand around the hall in a big circle, lighting the Christingles, before processing round singing a song. Afterwards, a group of us then had to spend a few hours cleaning the floor, as lots of raisins were always well trodden in. And don't even get me started on the amount of time taken to set out chairs etc beforehand and then put them away afterwards.

    Then one year, we nearly had tragedy, when a woman's long hair was set alight by a Christingle being waved around behind her. Fortunately, someone acted quickly and got the fire put out before the woman was injured. After that, we finally got the vicar to see sense and insist that after lighting the Christingles, everyone stayed in their places. He did so, but made it very plain that he wasn't happy about it.

    I can't say that I have happy memories!

    To me, the Christingle service is something that outlived its novelty (& ability to draw crowds) some 20+ years ago. And using electric candles just makes the whole thing even tackier.
  • <snip>

    To me, the Christingle service is something that outlived its novelty (& ability to draw crowds) some 20+ years ago. And using electric candles just makes the whole thing even tackier.

    Yes, but, in all fairness, the Christingle Service we used to hold was very well-attended by the uniformed groups + their families, and was for many of them probably the only overtly religious service they would go to in the whole year!

    Not sure where I'm going with this, but it did at least provide one opportunity to present the Christmas story in a Christian manner...
    *sings*

    No Elves, no Elves, no-o E-e-lves, no-o E-e-lves!

    IYSWIM.
    :wink:

  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Does anybody know where the plainsong music for this might be had?

    I could do it out myself but it's a fairly busy week at work and I already have the office hymns to do for Lent and for the Feast of the Encounter, so I'd rather not do this too unless I have to.

    All I can find is the more commonly sung tune, which I believe is Roman.

    I'd be grateful for any help.
  • @Cyprian Your link just took me to a general page advertising top links by Konrad Ruhland.

    What bit of text are you wanting the music for?
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    @Cyprian Your link just took me to a general page advertising top links by Konrad Ruhland.

    I'm sorry. That's because I'm having a week of being a duffer when it comes to functioning at the moment. :tired_face:
    What bit of text are you wanting the music for?

    It's the Alleluia, Dulce Carmen to this melody that I'm after. All of my searches just found the more common melody but the Konrad Ruhland material seems to use some non-Roman melodies that originate in other rites, and were often used in the British Isles historically.

    My bishop was able to find for me a source for the ancient melody for the Sancti, venite, and it turned out to be almost identical to the version in the Ruhland recording. I was so very pleased after months of searching. :smile:
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Is this it? Without Ruhlands somewhat wilful and controversial ways with rhythms.
    https://societyofstbede.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/alleluiadulcecarmen.pdf
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Is this it? Without Ruhlands somewhat wilful and controversial ways with rhythms.
    https://societyofstbede.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/alleluiadulcecarmen.pdf

    EDIT - yes, thats the one Ruhland has recorded.
  • You want a copy of the Liber Usualis, where you'll find it as a hymn for Septuagesima - I think you can download the LU as a pdf for free.

    In the meantime this gives you the melody if you scroll down.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    You want a copy of the Liber Usualis, where you'll find it as a hymn for Septuagesima - I think you can download the LU as a pdf for free.

    In the meantime this gives you the melody if you scroll down.

    That is a different melody from the one in the Youtube clip.
  • Sorry. I'll keep looking for you.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Sorry. I'll keep looking for you.

    I posted a link this morning to a pdf of the tune in the Youtube clip.
  • Spotted that after my last post.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited January 30
    God bless you both! Thank you so much for your efforts and for saving me so much time and a job.
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Is this it? Without Ruhlands somewhat wilful and controversial ways with rhythms.
    https://societyofstbede.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/alleluiadulcecarmen.pdf

    EDIT - yes, thats the one Ruhland has recorded.

    Yes, this is indeed the one I'm after, @Alan29 . Thank you for finding it for me.

    The Farewell to the Alleluia in our rite actually takes place at Vespers of Ash Wednesday. So I thought we would use this as the office hymn from Septuagesima until then.

    (Incidentally, I agree about the peculiar rhythms.)
  • AmosAmos Shipmate
    This one has me stumped. I've been asked 'Is there no committal when a person is laid to rest in a vault?' Somebody's been watching the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral and noticed no 'earth to earth, ashes to ashes dust to dust in sure and certain hope of the resurrection,' which has been such a vital (sorry) part of the funeral liturgy of the CofE since at least 1662.
  • There was a commendation:

    Go forth upon thy journey from this world.
    O Christian soul,
    in the name of God the Father Almighty who created thee;
    in the name of Jesus Christ who suffered for thee,
    in the name of the Holy Spirit who strengthened thee;
    May thy portion this day be in peace,
    and thy dwelling in the heavenly Jerusalem
    Amen

    It seems that the ashes to ashes bit is read when the body is committed to the earth and handfuls of earth thrown into the grave, according to the CofE Common Worship Funeral Service. So would not happen when placed in a vault
  • CharlesReadCharlesRead Shipmate Posts: 8
    The Go Forth prayer is a commendation, not committal. You can use the ashes to ashes text at a cremation too. The service was a mangled version of Series 1, which is authorised C of E liturgy and is the funeral service most used when someone wants a service in Tudor language but not your actual BCP, which is a pretty bleak service. I guess that committal to a vault requires a bit of adjustment of the end of the service but I can't see why they tinkered with the rest of it. They could have personalised it and still used the service as set. But the most obvious adjustment would be the necessity to accommodate the fact the the deceased was committed to a vault.
  • I think I heard that the Dean of Windsor goes down to the vault after the service and says the words as the coffin is placed into the space in the vault.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Welcome back Nunc, don't remember your being on the new Ship.

    Certainly winter oranges in the UK - and indeed northern Europe generally - would have been a real luxury. None grown locally and insufficient transport to bring in oranges grown elsewhere, then distribute them for retail sale.

    As a child in the 50s and 60s I was puzzled that an orange would appear in our Xmas stockings, as a real treat. Surely chocolate would have been better? Years later I asked my grandmother, by then in her 80s, why this was so. She told me that in the Ottawa Valley in the 20s and 30s, oranges were rarely available, and generally only at Xmastime. From the 1940s shops would bring them in all year round but they were deemed to be an expensive luxury item and useless for cooking. Rationing and wartime transport limitations meant that they were really only freely available in grocery stores from after WWII. She confessed that she was so accustomed to eating oranges from tins that she found the taste of fresh oranges far too harsh.

    I haven't run into Christingles in Canada, but perhaps that's because group youth and child activities have become generic holiday celebrations.
  • Dickens mentioned oranges, along with almost every other fruit and vegetable ever heard of by an early Victorian greengrocer, in A Christmas Carol published in the 1840s. So the availability of oranges at Christmas, probably for only a very short period, and a connection with the festival was known about 200 years ago.

    The second point is the impact of the world wars on food in the UK, with rationing and the need to use shipping for essential (or export) goods, meant that tropical fruits disappeared from British diets for decades. This fits with the creation of the Christingle in the 1950s/1960s as oranges became more common again. At least until the 1970s, in my corner of south Wales, tangerines and the other more easily-eaten types of orange were only ever available at or around Christmas.

    At least we should be grateful that people didn't decide to use bananas as a symbol of Christ's love for the world...
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    I have some of my mum’s diaries from the 1940s in which she occasionally records having had an orange. I’ll check the dates and frequency, but I don’t think all dates were around Christmas.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Augustine the Aleut - I'd not have thought of that as being as isolated as you recount - off the beaten track a bit, but only a bit. My childhood recollection is of oranges being available all year round. Then again, not even a Tasmanian winter is anywhere near as severe as you experience.

    I don't recall oranges in cans - at one stage, canned mandarins were around but used for cooking.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    I volunteer as a docent at a SoCal historical museum and one thing our community provided from the 1880s on was the navel orange that ripened just in time for the Christmas holidays. There was the perfect convergence of a niche product that shipped well on the relatively newly available cross-continental trains. Fresh fruit for Christmas! Them thar oranges were made of gold! Who-da thunk!

    And one of the two original navel orange trees planted in 1873 is alive and tenderly cared for.
  • AmosAmos Shipmate
    I think I heard that the Dean of Windsor goes down to the vault after the service and says the words as the coffin is placed into the space in the vault.

    That's what I suspected, and suggested to the person who asked the question. I've since heard it suggested (by someone from a Notable Cathedral Over Here) that he's only staying in the vault until he can be buried with HM in the George VI chapel.



  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Augustine the Aleut - I'd not have thought of that as being as isolated as you recount - off the beaten track a bit, but only a bit. My childhood recollection is of oranges being available all year round. Then again, not even a Tasmanian winter is anywhere near as severe as you experience.

    I don't recall oranges in cans - at one stage, canned mandarins were around but used for cooking.

    Likewise. Valencias especially grow all year round. Mandarins ( tangerines everywhere else) are more an autumn/ winter fruit. If seen in shops in Oz summer they are imports from the USA

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Amos wrote: »
    I've since heard it suggested (by someone from a Notable Cathedral Over Here) that he's only staying in the vault until he can be buried with HM in the George VI chapel.
    Yes, I’ve seen that reported in numerous new stories, and it was also mentioned in the televised coverage I watched (CNN, American).

  • Amos wrote: »
    I think I heard that the Dean of Windsor goes down to the vault after the service and says the words as the coffin is placed into the space in the vault.

    That's what I suspected, and suggested to the person who asked the question. I've since heard it suggested (by someone from a Notable Cathedral Over Here) that he's only staying in the vault until he can be buried with HM in the George VI chapel.

    Correct.
    My sources tell me that Philip is in the niche originally occupied by his mother before her re-interment in Israel.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Augustine the Aleut - I'd not have thought of that as being as isolated as you recount - off the beaten track a bit, but only a bit. My childhood recollection is of oranges being available all year round. Then again, not even a Tasmanian winter is anywhere near as severe as you experience.

    I don't recall oranges in cans - at one stage, canned mandarins were around but used for cooking.

    I've done a bit of further research, such as are the amusements we are permitted under the provincial lockdown. An 85-year old cousin tells me that she was too young to remember if oranges were to be had in Renfrew during the war outside Xmas stockings, but she recalls the excitement when marmalade oranges became available again after WWII, as the making of preserves was a major social activity among Presbyterian women. She does recall that sliced oranges were available in tins around then, but only recalls mandarins from her teens,

    More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days. Full Homely Divinity suggests orange for Confessors, Monastics, and Matrons, but I don't know of anywhere which has adopted this variation.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days.
    Creation Time?

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days.
    Creation Time?

    I had heard of it en passant but ws insufficiently curious at the time to learn more. However, this site (https://www.ecen.org/creation-time) will provide some information although here it seems to be a pre-Advent or late-Trinitytide phenomenon. The United Church of Canada seems to put Pentecost 2 in September, as well (https://united-church.ca/worship-liturgical-season/creation-time-1), as does the Church of Scotland (https://churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/2020/creation-time-begins). This is all very new to me.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Thanks, @Augustine the Aleut. When I read the ecen.org link, it did ring some bells. Perhaps I’ve seen reference to it on the Ship before; I’ve never encountered it in real life, and I’m not aware of it having taken hold in any US denomination. (Though googling turned up a 2014 page of World Council of Churches resources on my tribe’s website).

    The only similar division of Ordinary Time after Pentecost I’ve encountered is Kingdomtide, and I’ve only encountered that among United Methodists.

    Meanwhile, I have to say that the idea of orange as a liturgical color sounds like something Mark Schweizer would have put into one of his Liturgical Mysteries. (In fact, I think he did, but I can’t remember which one.)

  • Saffron Yellow was, it seems, occasionally used in the Sarum Rite as the liturgical colour for Confessors, and it could be classed as a shade of orange.
  • Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.
  • MamacitaMamacita Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Meanwhile, I have to say that the idea of orange as a liturgical color sounds like something Mark Schweizer would have put into one of his Liturgical Mysteries. (In fact, I think he did, but I can’t remember which one.)
    Our former Canon to the Ordinary donned an orange tie-died chasuble at his ordination to the priesthood. It was 1969, which sort of explains it.
  • Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.

    Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!

    I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
  • BTW, our Cathedral has, or had, a set of festal vestments (including copes) which are basically a sort of golden-yellow, with orange orphreys (IIRC), making for quite a pleasing colour combination.

    YMMV...
  • Some sort of Cloth of Gold?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Mamacita wrote: »
    Our former Canon to the Ordinary donned an orange tie-died chasuble at his ordination to the priesthood. It was 1969, which sort of explains it.
    I hope he had matching spectacles with rectangular orange tinted lenses for it.

  • Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.

    Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!

    I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...

    Try using an online version: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/index1899.html

    Colours are dscussed in this section: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/chapter03.html
  • Some sort of Cloth of Gold?

    No, I don't think so.

    IIRC (it's been a while since I saw the vestments, and I can't find a photo), the material is not *shiny*.
    Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.

    Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!

    I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...

    Try using an online version: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/index1899.html

    Colours are dscussed in this section: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/chapter03.html

    Thanks for the links!
  • AmosAmos Shipmate
    Worcester Cathedral has a set of copes jocularly called 'St Clement's' because they're in shades of orange and lemon. From the optimistically modernist post-war school of ecclesiastical embroidery.
  • :lol:

    That's what I call our local orange-and-lemon stuff...though their design is quite conservative IIRC - it's the colours that are a bit different...
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Some sort of Cloth of Gold?

    No, I don't think so.

    IIRC (it's been a while since I saw the vestments, and I can't find a photo), the material is not *shiny*.
    Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.

    Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!

    I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...

    Try using an online version: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/index1899.html

    Colours are dscussed in this section: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/chapter03.html

    Thanks for the links!

    PD messed around an awful with the colours section of 'The Parson's Handbook' and in the 1932 edition he stopped being prescriptive at all, and gave a series of alternatives - one for churches of very limited means, a second as a sort of normal, and lastly the all-singing-all-dancing scheme that he had drawn up for Liverpool Cathedral a few years earlier. Plus Dearmer himself says that a lot of his suggestions are suggestions; unlike the chaps who wrote Ritual Notes who seem to treat this stuff as though it is the Law and the Prophets.

  • Not strictly liturgical, but this seems as good a place as any for this question. I've done some rather casual digging about, but haven't come up with anything.

    This I may have asked before. Why is it that St Margaret seems to be associated with hospitality? There used to be St Margaret's Hotel in Bedford Road, Bloomsbury, and I know of at least one (two, I think) parish hall bearing her name.

    St Leonard seems to be associated with ex-criminals or others otherwise at risk. I know of a transitional residence and of an organisation that provides assistance to newly released prisoners and to those potentially homeless.

    Ideas? TIA.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    You did ask this before. Checking your profile reveals that you started a thread on it in September last year.
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