#Ban the Superleague?

24

Comments

  • Caissa wrote: »
    As a Canadian Liverpool fan I am having a hard time understanding the wish to ban the Super League. It looks to me like UEFA and FIFA trying to impose a monopoly.

    I thought the SL is a monopoly.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Regarding [footballers'] desire for top wages as 'mercenary' is unworthy- we do not live in the age of chivalry! The labourer is worthy of his hire!

    And has anyone said otherwise?

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    The SL is not a monopoly. It is several teams/owners choosing the come together and form a League. Others are trying to limit their ability to work outside of their structures ie. UEFA, FIFA etc.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Could clubs not have two distinct sets of playrrs, one lot for this SL and another lot for everything else?
  • Caissa wrote: »
    The SL is not a monopoly. It is several teams/owners choosing the come together and form a League. Others are trying to limit their ability to work outside of their structures ie. UEFA, FIFA etc.

    Well, there is no relegation.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Players in the Champions League level teams are already overstretched: national teams with a lot of players in those teams underperform in the World and European cups.

    I should think one of the factors in people wanting to become fans of a foreign club is that they have players whose profile is world-class. It's going to be harder for a player to build that profile if they don't play for their national side.
  • Sport hinges on jeopardy, doesn't it? Where is the jeopardy here? Currently, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs are not in Champions League places in the Premiership. Ah, but in the SL, they are guaranteed. I accept that there is sport without jeopardy, e.g., the Harlem Globetrotters.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    edited April 19
    The National Hockey League would be an example of a league without jeopardy. No relegation, no international tournaments to which to advance. Same for National Basketball Association, Major League Baseball and in part, Major League Soccer. This jeopardy of which you speak is certainly not a phenomenon in North American professional sport.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    The SL is not a monopoly. It is several teams/owners choosing the come together and form a League. Others are trying to limit their ability to work outside of their structures ie. UEFA, FIFA etc.

    Well, there is no relegation.

    Which means that very few games are competitive.

  • GarethMoonGarethMoon Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    The National Hockey League would be an example of a league without jeopardy. No relegation, no international tournaments to which to advance. Same for National Basketball Association, Major League Baseball and in part, Major League Soccer. This jeopardy of which you speak is certainly not a phenomenon in North American professional sport.

    Which is part of the problem.

    Very profitable $$$ North American business style applied to a, largely non-North American, sport. A number of whose owners are North American.

    Rather than earning a place at the top table (Champions League, Winning the EPL etc) and even earning your place every year to sit at the table via relegation the Super League is an attempt by the richest clubs to use their wealth to keep being the richest clubs forever via means that go beyond "buy the best players in the world".

    But you lose the romance of Leicester winning the EPL, Atalanta doing amazingly well in Europe while in Serie B, Man City going from the top English league, down to the 3rd (4th?) tier to being one of the biggest clubs in the world. Southampton a similar story. Notts County in Europe. The possibility of AFC Wimbledon getting to the EPL before MK Dons.

    The last one also shows the contempt Europe especially has for North American style innovations in sport. The idea that you could take Wimbledon FC, transplant them to Milton Keynes and rebrand the MK Dons wasn't taken well at all and lead to the formation of AFC Wimbledon.



  • GarethMoon wrote: »
    But you lose the romance of Leicester winning the EPL, Atalanta doing amazingly well in Europe while in Serie B, Man City going from the top English league, down to the 3rd (4th?) tier to being one of the biggest clubs in the world. Southampton a similar story. Notts County in Europe. The possibility of AFC Wimbledon getting to the EPL before MK Dons.

    And are the fans willing to back up their desire for romance? I suggest that most will simply pay up and keep watching.
  • It does have a farcical aspect. My club is in the super league, because, er, well, we always have been.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    The SL is not a monopoly. It is several teams/owners choosing the come together and form a League. Others are trying to limit their ability to work outside of their structures ie. UEFA, FIFA etc.

    If the Premier League were to finish in its current position, and the 5th, 6th, 7th and 9th-placed clubs get to qualify for the megastars table because, er, they say so, while the 3rd and 4th-placed teams qualify for what would be a weaker competition - you wouldn't consider that a travesty?
  • At the heart of this is a battle between the "super" clubs, who want to make more money, versus UEFA/FIFA, who also want to make more money. It is a battle which I would prefer no-one won. The only losers, whatever happens, will be the fans who no longer really count for anything.

    The SL clubs are (rightfully) frustrated that UEFA have expanded both the Champions League and the Europa League into over-bloated messes that make increasing demands upon clubs and players but which benefits UEFA more than the clubs. Add to that the FIFA driven World Club Cup, which inevitably interferes with domestic competitions, adding more pressure upon the players and making more money for FIFA,

    Virtually nothing that UEFA or FIFA have done in recent years has been for the benefit of players, fans or the clubs. Hence it is not surprising that the "cash cows" want to keep more money for themselves, rather than let it go to a couple of deeply corrupt organisations. They have a lot of power and isn't surprising that they are flexing their muscles.

    Do I agree with this Super League idea? Absolutely not. You just have to look at the mess that is the MLS in North America to see that a league that is self-perpetuating and where there is no real cost to being bottom results in a franchise mentality where as long as the owner is making enough money, there is no incentive to invest properly and strive to be the best. A number of MLS clubs drift along complacently, never achieving much, because they know that they'll still be there next season, no matter how bad they are (yes, Vancouver Whitecaps, I'm looking at you!).

    I suspect, given the hard-headed pragmatism and lust for moolah that thrives in European football, that there will be some sort of compromise. Both sides have too much to lose; UEFA can't afford to lose its cash cows - the clubs that pull in the TV money - and the clubs can't afford to lose key players who want to play for their country at the World Cup. But, like the Kerry Packer affair in cricket, it may take a few years before compromise is reached.

  • GarethMoon wrote: »
    But you lose the romance of Leicester winning the EPL, Atalanta doing amazingly well in Europe while in Serie B, Man City going from the top English league, down to the 3rd (4th?) tier to being one of the biggest clubs in the world. Southampton a similar story. Notts County in Europe. The possibility of AFC Wimbledon getting to the EPL before MK Dons.

    And are the fans willing to back up their desire for romance? I suggest that most will simply pay up and keep watching.

    The fans were willing to back their desire for romance in the case of AFC Wimbledon. The hard core of fans set up and run the club in response to the uprooting of the original team to Milton Keynes. I was at the pre-season friendly with Colchester Town just after it had been announced that the move was happening, with a friend who was supporting what had been his local club, following in the footsteps of his father and a few other diehard supporters. The news did not go down well, very vociferous protests at that match, until the ref asked us to stop chanting "we want Koppel out". At which point heads started getting close and deciding which pub to meet in afterwards and start planning.

    And Wimbledon have been romantic to follow - on their route to winning the FA Cup in 1988, which is when I lived near enough to support them and attended the home games, and again as AFC Wimbledon working their way up the leagues from the Combined Counties league in 2002 when it was founded to now when the team has been playing in the third tier of the English Football League since 2016. Wikipedia link.

    And those hard core fans have worked very hard to make this work - running the club as volunteers, running the merchandise stalls, setting the whole thing up. It's now bigger than that, but at the start it was those fans putting the graft in.
  • I didn't realize that the non-competitive nature of the SL is the norm in the US. It seems bizarre in England, thus, currently Leicester are 3rd in the PL, but wouldn't qualify, whereas Arsenal are 9th, but would! God almighty what a shambles. Currently, Liverpool, the current champions, are 6th. Why? Because they played like a drain. Ah, but never mind, they have been anointed.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Good Grauniad comment on tonight's match:
    We’re going to stick around for the post-interview entertainment, too, an association football match between Leeds and Liverpool. It’s an important game for Liverpool, who need to finish one of the top four divisions if they are to qualify for next season’s European Super League. Can they do it?
  • I like the gag, Mourinh
  • Sorry, Mourinho is the first managerial casualty of the Super League.
  • A demonstration outside the game, with the banner, "love for the working class game, ruined by greed and corruption. RIP LFC, thanks for the memories". Makes me sad.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Quetzalcoatl wrote: I didn't realize that the non-competitive nature of the SL is the norm in the US

    To which Caissa responds: I presume you meant North America.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 19
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Fawkes Cat wrote: »
    Doesn't this in turn start from the assumption that 'the world's top players' will be more interested in the money from playing in the Superleague than the intangible rewards of remaining in their national leagues?

    The "world's top players" move around the world to whichever club offers them the most money. Neymar is Brazilian. He moved from Barcelona to Paris Saint-Germain for money. He wasn't worried about the "intangible rewards" of playing in La Liga.

    Would Neymar have moved to a club if moving to that club would have meant not being allowed to play for Brazil? I think not.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    A demonstration outside the game, with the banner, "love for the working class game, ruined by greed and corruption. RIP LFC, thanks for the memories". Makes me sad.
    I note that none of the 6 clubs were original members of the Football league. Like my club for instance. Formed in a factory making weighing scales in 1879 and in 1888 won the FA cup with 10 players coming from the town and the other one from just outside
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Boing Boing 😁😁😁
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Here is a distillation of the Super League by the CBC.

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/european-super-league-soccer-1.5993310
  • What a farce, Arsenal scrape a draw with Fulham, they're in the SL, Liverpool scrape a draw with Leeds, ditto, Juventus lose to Atalanta, ditto. What a steaming pile of anti-football.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    edited April 19


    Now even the Duke of Cambridge has weighed in.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56809771
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Boing Boing 😁😁😁
    The Lord is my Shepherd !
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »

    Now even the Duke of Cambridge has weighed in.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56809771

    Of course he has. His Birmingham club haven't been invited
  • This is really about the fact that professional sport is now a reality TV show. Selling tickets is a sideline, mostly because the show is better with fans in the seats. Now that television is global, who needs local fan support? Thus the recent decimation of minor league baseball in the USA, and the ongoing erosion of lower division football in the UK. Even among American soccer fans, there are plenty who won't go to see their local team because they'd rather get up at 4:30 to watch Chelsea on NBCSN...
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Football is a runaway train heading for the super league.

    The Liverpool players and manager disagree with it, yet their crazy wages are the engine of that train.

    🤷‍♀️
  • Telford wrote: »
    Caissa wrote: »

    Now even the Duke of Cambridge has weighed in.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56809771

    Of course he has. His Birmingham club haven't been invited

    I would have thought his comments were made as President of the Football Association, which post he holds.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    Here is a distillation of the Super League by the CBC.

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/european-super-league-soccer-1.5993310

    I like the phrase 'forced to qualify' (for the Champions League). Though it fails to capture the true horror of the situation, in which teams, regardless of their pedigree, are forced to score more goals than the opposition in order to win matches!
  • And they qualify even if they score fewer goals, and lose matches.
  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.

    Speaking for myself I have never been down a coal mine, never worked as a coal miner and don't own a coal fire. I wouldn't, on those grounds, opine that my copy of "GB-84" is less morally serious than my copy of "The Damned United". Football is a multi-million dollar business of some small interest to millions of people. If you are not terribly interested in it, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but some of us do care about it and your performative "look at me, I am too enlightened to care about this shit, unlike you peasants" is deeply, deeply tedious.
  • I get that some people are not interested in football, but I don't get the idea that it shouldn't be first item on the news. Football is one of our key cultural products, which is important to many people.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Callan wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.

    Speaking for myself I have never been down a coal mine, never worked as a coal miner and don't own a coal fire. I wouldn't, on those grounds, opine that my copy of "GB-84" is less morally serious than my copy of "The Damned United". Football is a multi-million dollar business of some small interest to millions of people. If you are not terribly interested in it, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but some of us do care about it and your performative "look at me, I am too enlightened to care about this shit, unlike you peasants" is deeply, deeply tedious.

    You are perfectly entitled to care about it, but why the in depth analysis cannot be done on the dedicated sports channels I do not understand. It is its utter domination to which I object, to the exclusion of more than a cursory treatment to any other news item.

    I also object to your deciding what I'm actually thinking. Cut it out.
  • SpikeSpike Admin Emeritus
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    As well as being the headline news, you then get it all over again, almost word for word, 10 minutes later when it comes on the sport section of the news
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Callan wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.

    Speaking for myself I have never been down a coal mine, never worked as a coal miner and don't own a coal fire. I wouldn't, on those grounds, opine that my copy of "GB-84" is less morally serious than my copy of "The Damned United". Football is a multi-million dollar business of some small interest to millions of people. If you are not terribly interested in it, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but some of us do care about it and your performative "look at me, I am too enlightened to care about this shit, unlike you peasants" is deeply, deeply tedious.

    You are perfectly entitled to care about it, but why the in depth analysis cannot be done on the dedicated sports channels I do not understand.

    I think partly because it as important cultural phenomenon, and this particular story has a lot of economic and political angles.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Callan wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.

    Speaking for myself I have never been down a coal mine, never worked as a coal miner and don't own a coal fire. I wouldn't, on those grounds, opine that my copy of "GB-84" is less morally serious than my copy of "The Damned United". Football is a multi-million dollar business of some small interest to millions of people. If you are not terribly interested in it, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but some of us do care about it and your performative "look at me, I am too enlightened to care about this shit, unlike you peasants" is deeply, deeply tedious.

    You are perfectly entitled to care about it, but why the in depth analysis cannot be done on the dedicated sports channels I do not understand. It is its utter domination to which I object, to the exclusion of more than a cursory treatment to any other news item.

    I also object to your deciding what I'm actually thinking. Cut it out.

    Which news are you watching? I watched the 6pm and 10pm news last night, and the football item came first, as I think it should. "Utter domination" seems incorrect to me, there were extended items on the Mars events and on George Floyd, on both BBC and ITV.
  • Just saw a statement from Liverpool, all about new sources of revenue, nothing about the social and cultural meaning of football. And don't Liverpool call themselves the people's club? Yeah, right. No link, sorry.

    Mind you, my club, Man Utd, are owned by the Glazers, no words.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    One of the benefits of just reading the news online: I don't have to endure such things, and can just skip to extra terrestrial flights. (And Radio 3 isn't that bothered about it).

    I have quite a few friends who support Leicester. I think that for them the highlight was winning the Premier League. Getting to play in Europe the following season was an extra bonus, but showed up the problem of having some of the best players lured away by bigger pay packets over the summer.

    The Super League though wouldn't reward clubs who do what they did though, which is finish off a very successful few years with the silverware. I think that for a lot of national leagues, which don't have the lucrative TV deals of the PL, the Europa and Champions League competitions are the chance to have a serious pay day, so they'll be unhappy if broadcasters reduce the money to reflect the fact that the big names aren't there.

    Having seen the Duke of Cambridge's tweet, it doesn't mention his FA hat, but those it is aimed at will of course know.

    The IPL, Big Bash et al are a different model: they are time limited and deliberately planned to work with domestic competitions, and each other, although length of season determines how well that works in practice. They also give the chance to see the world's best cricketers playing together, as they are deliberately a mix of domestic and international 'names'. (And for the players, the money won't hurt the pension.)

    We have a 100 franchise locally, and we will probably take the children to that and the T20 games, leaving county championship games for ourselves. It's an interesting idea, if only for the fact that most games are double headers with the women's and men's teams playing on the same day. (There will also be county team and regional women's team T20 matches together one Saturday.)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Callan wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I have no interest in this topic, but I do resent it occupying the first ten minutes of the BBC’s 6 o clock news.

    And the same on PM. And the Today programme. Could have covered it briefly and done the detail on the dedicated sports channels.

    Poor woman explaining the technical accomplishment that is the drone launched on Mars got hardly any time.

    Speaking for myself I have never been down a coal mine, never worked as a coal miner and don't own a coal fire. I wouldn't, on those grounds, opine that my copy of "GB-84" is less morally serious than my copy of "The Damned United". Football is a multi-million dollar business of some small interest to millions of people. If you are not terribly interested in it, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but some of us do care about it and your performative "look at me, I am too enlightened to care about this shit, unlike you peasants" is deeply, deeply tedious.

    You are perfectly entitled to care about it, but why the in depth analysis cannot be done on the dedicated sports channels I do not understand. It is its utter domination to which I object, to the exclusion of more than a cursory treatment to any other news item.

    I also object to your deciding what I'm actually thinking. Cut it out.

    Which news are you watching? I watched the 6pm and 10pm news last night, and the football item came first, as I think it should. "Utter domination" seems incorrect to me, there were extended items on the Mars events and on George Floyd, on both BBC and ITV.

    Radio 4. Don't watch TV news.

    I can't see why it comes first either. But that's probably me being "performative" according to people who know me better than I do, apparently.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    All three of my talk radio channels are full of it today, most irritating. I’ve gone to podcasts, but I usually prefer talk radio - it’s more connected somehow.

    Fortunately none of my three men are home or they would be full of it too.

    Will this furore die down soon or will it run and run?

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    All three of my talk radio channels are full of it today, most irritating. I’ve gone to podcasts, but I usually prefer talk radio - it’s more connected somehow.

    Fortunately none of my three men are home or they would be full of it too.

    Will this furore die down soon or will it run and run?

    There are a lot of fans. It will run.
  • Everton talking about the "preposterous arrogance" of the dirty dozen. Of course, cynics argue that Everton would have gobbled up an invite, but we need all the help we can get to resist. Imagine a scouse derby, where the result didn't affect one of the teams. Madness.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    The more I think of it, the more I think that these clubs cannot be allowed to continue to play in domestic leagues if they proceed with the Super League.

    Because we're talking about clubs that have deeper pockets than most others getting a massive injection of cash. They already have a resources advantage, which significantly helps them achieve success but doesn't guarantee it. And now they propose to rake up a few hundred million more each year from midweek games and turn around on the weekend to compete against clubs that will be even further behind financially than they are now.

    So not only is Super League about being assured a permanent place in a 'top' competition, the effect would be to reduce what limited jeopardy they face in the existing competitions.

    So sure, Arsenal and Tottenham might find themselves perpetually at the bottom of the Super League table. But the extra money would sure help them do well in all the English comps... well, except maybe against the other 4 clubs getting the same cash injection.

    Also, my liking for Jurgen Klopp just grows and grows.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    This issue is a major pond difference. The British/European model looks strange to North Americans raised on professional sports in which the franchises within a League only change when a team folds or is granted a franchise by the league. I understand also that the North American model seems strange from the other side of the Pond. What I have learned from this thread and from reading BBC coverage is the depth of feeling in the UK in favour of the current model and in oppositionn to the Super Leagues and its model.
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