Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Of course not !!
OK. But are you there?
Martin, why do you find it necessary to nail everyone down to ensure they meet your standards, which frankly seems to be accompanied by a condemnatory assumption that they don’t unless they state to your satisfaction that they do?
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Of course not !!
OK. But are you there?
Martin, why do you find it necessary to nail everyone down to ensure they meet your standards, which frankly seems to be accompanied by a condemnatory assumption that they don’t unless they state to your satisfaction that they do?
Lighten up kid. Although, I'm afraid, your reaction is interesting Nick.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
I don't believe in any religion. I just believe in Jesus
You're splitting hairs. A distinction that really adds nothing to the discussion. Why Jesus? Why not Buddha? Zarathustra? Guru Nanak? Mohammed? Krishna? None of the above?
No thanks. I'll stick with what I know.
No phenomenology there then.
Certainly not !!
That raised a smile. I hope you weren't just being humourlessly serious.
Of course not !!
OK. But are you there?
Martin, why do you find it necessary to nail everyone down to ensure they meet your standards, which frankly seems to be accompanied by a condemnatory assumption that they don’t unless they state to your satisfaction that they do?
Lighten up kid. Although, I'm afraid, your reaction is interesting Nick.
I’m just responding to how your posts come across to me. I guess I’ll just chalk it up to a posting style that more frequently than not I’m unable to parse.
No, not s...acred. A four letter profanity that the monkey in me wants to throw through the cage bars and daub on the wall. But out of a residual rankle of disgust at profaning the sacred, two evolved genetic opposed moral taste receptors in one, I won't. Even though I'm not profaning the Resurrection of The Saviour Elect, why Christ is Risen, the only warrant we have for the transcendent, for purpose, for life after death. I'm profaning the inadequate second rate imagining of that. Any version of the Resurrection that is not fully inclusive of all humanity having died and been raised to glory, elect for salvation in the Elect Saviour.
I watched The Mauritanian last night and was in tears for most of it it felt like. Just weeping silently trying not to let my wife see. Following on from my envy at Outside The City.
Disconnected? Not in the slightest.
My wife wants the Resurrection to be true, but cannot stand the excluding hubris of Easter.
Will even Francis include all humanity today? Without caveat? Without an implicit 'Yeah but...'? The Anglican communion won't, along with the vast majority of the Reformed here, who struggle to reach let alone grasp universal salvation, eternal life for all. Who cannot see it in Paul let alone Jesus.
This day should be the best day of the year with Christianity reaching out to every Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Confucianist, Jew, atheist, other, neighbour at every level and saying God bless you friend is there anything we can do together, do you need any help, any help at all? Can we start again? Can we deconstruct and reconstruct together?
The day that happens is Resurrection Day.
Today isn't that.
Perhaps this old song is true. I can remember it being sang in pubs when I was young
3. And once again the scene was changed,
New earth there seem’d to be,
I saw the Holy City
Beside the tideless sea;
The light of God was on its streets, The gates were open wide,
And all who would might enter,
And no one was denied.
No, not s...acred. A four letter profanity that the monkey in me wants to throw through the cage bars and daub on the wall. But out of a residual rankle of disgust at profaning the sacred, two evolved genetic opposed moral taste receptors in one, I won't. Even though I'm not profaning the Resurrection of The Saviour Elect, why Christ is Risen, the only warrant we have for the transcendent, for purpose, for life after death. I'm profaning the inadequate second rate imagining of that. Any version of the Resurrection that is not fully inclusive of all humanity having died and been raised to glory, elect for salvation in the Elect Saviour.
I watched The Mauritanian last night and was in tears for most of it it felt like. Just weeping silently trying not to let my wife see. Following on from my envy at Outside The City.
Disconnected? Not in the slightest.
My wife wants the Resurrection to be true, but cannot stand the excluding hubris of Easter.
Will even Francis include all humanity today? Without caveat? Without an implicit 'Yeah but...'? The Anglican communion won't, along with the vast majority of the Reformed here, who struggle to reach let alone grasp universal salvation, eternal life for all. Who cannot see it in Paul let alone Jesus.
This day should be the best day of the year with Christianity reaching out to every Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Confucianist, Jew, atheist, other, neighbour at every level and saying God bless you friend is there anything we can do together, do you need any help, any help at all? Can we start again? Can we deconstruct and reconstruct together?
The day that happens is Resurrection Day.
Today isn't that.
Perhaps this old song is true. I can remember it being sang in pubs when I was young
3. And once again the scene was changed,
New earth there seem’d to be,
I saw the Holy City
Beside the tideless sea;
The light of God was on its streets, The gates were open wide,
And all who would might enter,
And no one was denied.
You can do no wrong. Wish I'd stumbled in to those pubs.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
Seriously?
Before you moved into your present home did you give due consideration to all forms of dwelling? Including perfectly valid ethnic alternatives? Of course you didn’t. No one does. Our choice (assuming that we are lucky/affluent enough to have those) are limited to what is available locally, ideally not too far from food, work and education.
Faith is equally limited to what is available, in some cases it’s driven by whatever the neighbours are into. And people’s experiences of that faith, both good and bad, through family, education, personal experience and media representations, drive choices.
If Islam is correct then yes, I’m screwed, because I backed the wrong horse. Faith is nothing if not a trust exercise.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
It is more than likely that, if God does not exist then you are dead when you die .
However it is not true that if Islam is correct you are screwed for having backed the wrong horse. As has been said before for most of us the religion which we have and attempt to follow is that which has been put before us by society around us and in particular our parents and family.
Yes ,we may tweak things somwhat and some of us may even make a radical change of direction,but on the whole we follow the directions which we have been made aware of.
Yesterday in the sermon which I heard for 'Good Shepherd' Sunday, a day which many Western Christians will have celebrated, the preacher referred to the 'other sheep' which Jesus mentions. Very often a preacher will try to remind us that the ' other sheep 'must come into the one sheepfold' but here the preacher (in Salzburg cathedral) reminded us that these 'other sheep' belong equally to the Lord and are cared for by him in other sheepfolds. I take that to mean all religions and all forms of any particular religion.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
Seriously?
Before you moved into your present home did you give due consideration to all forms of dwelling? Including perfectly valid ethnic alternatives? Of course you didn’t. No one does. Our choice (assuming that we are lucky/affluent enough to have those) are limited to what is available locally, ideally not too far from food, work and education.
Faith is equally limited to what is available, in some cases it’s driven by whatever the neighbours are into. And people’s experiences of that faith, both good and bad, through family, education, personal experience and media representations, drive choices.
If Islam is correct then yes, I’m screwed, because I backed the wrong horse. Faith is nothing if not a trust exercise.
I'm amazed how comfortable you are with this ridiculous situation, where millions are screwed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that you imagine that God is comfortable with it, unless he's an uncaring arsehole.
The comparison with choosing a house is fucking ridiculous as well. All houses, barring structural faults, work as houses. But if the person picking the wrong religious beliefs is screwed, as you yourself postulate, then the comparison fails. It's as if every house except the real one is just a fake facade with a pit with poisoned spikes at the bottom, but you only find out when it's too late.
Do you never take a step back and think "what an absolute crock!" Why not, FFS?
It is more than likely that, if God does not exist then you are dead when you die .
However it is not true that if Islam is correct you are screwed for having backed the wrong horse. As has been said before for most of us the religion which we have and attempt to follow is that which has been put before us by society around us and in particular our parents and family.
Yes ,we may tweak things somwhat and some of us may even make a radical change of direction,but on the whole we follow the directions which we have been made aware of.
Yesterday in the sermon which I heard for 'Good Shepherd' Sunday, a day which many Western Christians will have celebrated, the preacher referred to the 'other sheep' which Jesus mentions. Very often a preacher will try to remind us that the ' other sheep 'must come into the one sheepfold' but here the preacher (in Salzburg cathedral) reminded us that these 'other sheep' belong equally to the Lord and are cared for by him in other sheepfolds. I take that to mean all religions and all forms of any particular religion.
It is more than likely that, if God does not exist then you are dead when you die .
However it is not true that if Islam is correct you are screwed for having backed the wrong horse. As has been said before for most of us the religion which we have and attempt to follow is that which has been put before us by society around us and in particular our parents and family.
Yes ,we may tweak things somwhat and some of us may even make a radical change of direction,but on the whole we follow the directions which we have been made aware of.
Yesterday in the sermon which I heard for 'Good Shepherd' Sunday, a day which many Western Christians will have celebrated, the preacher referred to the 'other sheep' which Jesus mentions. Very often a preacher will try to remind us that the ' other sheep 'must come into the one sheepfold' but here the preacher (in Salzburg cathedral) reminded us that these 'other sheep' belong equally to the Lord and are cared for by him in other sheepfolds. I take that to mean all religions and all forms of any particular religion.
I fear the reference Jesus made was pretty clearly to the Gentiles, not to adherents of different religions. You can argue universalism, but this is not the text to do it with.
It is more than likely that, if God does not exist then you are dead when you die .
However it is not true that if Islam is correct you are screwed for having backed the wrong horse. As has been said before for most of us the religion which we have and attempt to follow is that which has been put before us by society around us and in particular our parents and family.
Yes ,we may tweak things somwhat and some of us may even make a radical change of direction,but on the whole we follow the directions which we have been made aware of.
Yesterday in the sermon which I heard for 'Good Shepherd' Sunday, a day which many Western Christians will have celebrated, the preacher referred to the 'other sheep' which Jesus mentions. Very often a preacher will try to remind us that the ' other sheep 'must come into the one sheepfold' but here the preacher (in Salzburg cathedral) reminded us that these 'other sheep' belong equally to the Lord and are cared for by him in other sheepfolds. I take that to mean all religions and all forms of any particular religion.
I fear the reference Jesus made was pretty clearly to the Gentiles, not to adherents of different religions.
It’s arguable, I think, that in the context of Jesus and those listening to him, “Gentiles” and “adherents of different religions” is a distinction without a real difference.
The emphasis is decidedly different. "Gentiles" = more or less, "the rest of humanity who aren't God's chosen people, poor creatures" and is focused on birth, ethnicity, culture, and religion; "adherents of other religions" leaves the rest of it completely out of the mix, which falsifies the situation (Jesus was talking to Jews). So the text is being misused. (Really, one could be a "God fearer"--a believer in Judaism--and remain a Gentile. So the emotional core of their otherness does not rest on faith alone.)
The other problem with using this text is the fact that Jesus talks about "bringing them and there will be one flock, one Shepherd." Which is problematic for universalism because in that case, nobody gets "brought" anywhere, but rather left just where they are; and their relationship to the one Shepherd is decidedly hidden, if it exists at all. Just no on this text.
Yes, I’m familiar with “God fearers.” And I’m not using this text to argue universalism, though I don’t think it’s totally unrelated.
I’m saying the “adherent of a different religion” was tied up with ethnic identity in a way that it generally isn’t now—the main modern exceptions perhaps being Judaism and Hinduism. Being a Gentile—being outside the nation of Israel—generally meant being an adherent of a different religion. That was the case even with God fearers, as the Law was not binding on them unless they were part of Israel, part of the covenant. So saying “Gentile” pretty much assumed saying “not of our religion.”
BTW, I don’t think the “one flock, one Shepherd” part is problematic for universalism at all. Far from it. But that’s really tangential, if not completely unrelated, to the point I was making.
Ancient polytheistic worship really wasn't a matter of religion as we understand the term, as reflected in the fact that there was no word for a religion. Ancient polytheistic worship was basically transactional: you performed the rites as the god liked them and in return the god favoured you or didn't disfavour you. The gods were not in the business of giving general codes for life, certainly not of the sort that could be summed up in general principles of loving God and your neighbour.
Yes, which is why the poetry of Anhedduanna reads so strangely to me. It's the reality of what people sometimes accuse Christians of. Basically she shovels on the praise (and such praise! Some of it is basically "you murder really well!") and then expects benefits back. Bleccchhh. Thank God those aren't gods I have to deal with.
Nah!! You'd be much better nonchalantly sitting at your organ.
He's just weary and ill at ease...
Sometimes I think that heaven involves sitting around with Jesus while he has a good laugh at all the rubbish you believed while you were alive. And to some people that's hell.
Yes, which is why the poetry of Anhedduanna reads so strangely to me. It's the reality of what people sometimes accuse Christians of. Basically she shovels on the praise (and such praise! Some of it is basically "you murder really well!") and then expects benefits back. Bleccchhh. Thank God those aren't gods I have to deal with.
Come to think of it, it's strangely reminiscent of the way humans treat other humans...
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
Seriously?
Before you moved into your present home did you give due consideration to all forms of dwelling? Including perfectly valid ethnic alternatives? Of course you didn’t. No one does. Our choice (assuming that we are lucky/affluent enough to have those) are limited to what is available locally, ideally not too far from food, work and education.
Faith is equally limited to what is available, in some cases it’s driven by whatever the neighbours are into. And people’s experiences of that faith, both good and bad, through family, education, personal experience and media representations, drive choices.
If Islam is correct then yes, I’m screwed, because I backed the wrong horse. Faith is nothing if not a trust exercise.
I'm amazed how comfortable you are with this ridiculous situation, where millions are screwed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that you imagine that God is comfortable with it, unless he's an uncaring arsehole.
The comparison with choosing a house is fucking ridiculous as well. All houses, barring structural faults, work as houses. But if the person picking the wrong religious beliefs is screwed, as you yourself postulate, then the comparison fails. It's as if every house except the real one is just a fake facade with a pit with poisoned spikes at the bottom, but you only find out when it's too late.
Do you never take a step back and think "what an absolute crock!" Why not, FFS?
Depends what you build your house on. We all construct our lives on something.
If God doesn’t exist, then we’re all fine; equally dead and undisturbed. I don’t have a problem with that.
Assuming the end of the world doesn’t happen before the end of the century, Islam will have the greatest number of adherents.
If we also take the view that deities have no independent existence apart from the faith of followers then the end of the world, judgement day and the rest, will be under Islamic principles rather than Christian ones.
In this situation, then yes, I’m lost, because I believe that Jesus is far more than just one of God’s prophets. Worse still, I believe He’s the Son of God and God is both One and Three.
But there is no avoiding the fact that each of the monotheistic religions talk in terms of final judgement, sheep and goats, believers and infidels, few and many. “He will come again to judge the living and the dead” as it says in the Nicene Creed.
One option is to just see it as nothing more than scary poetry to keep primitive societies in line and that Jesus (or Allah or whoever) is never coming back to judge anyone. It’s just traditional to recite these sort of things on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday.
And there are plenty of believers who have genuine faith, but feel for various reasons that Jesus exaggerated some of His claims about His return.
Either we will all find out or we will all stay dead.
And what really moves the goalposts is that Jesus forgives unilaterally,
Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Luke 7:48-50
Expressions of saving faith are not necessarily what any of us think they should be.
Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Thought at one point it was about rejecting Christianity for not being progressive enough. Imagine, forgiving sins without reference to the wishes of the victims of those sins. Or offering eternal life to those who believe in Him, instead of to everyone unconditionally.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Didn't work though, did it?
Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation. .
I was under the impression that character, though not memory, is thought to travel on. And if (huge if, 'cause my knowledge is pretty much Ladybird Book level) I understand Buddhism correctly reincarnation is not considered valuable to much as a curse, and the objective, Nirvana, is to escape it.
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Didn't work though, did it?
Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.
If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
I don't know why I would want to preserve the life of people. For what reason? To have more and more and attain bliss? OK, but somehow it sticks in the throat. I see the finiteness of things as their gl
Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?
God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.
Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.
So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?
Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.
The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.
The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)
So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?
Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.
And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.
The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.
Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.
Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.
But you have to make that choice before your natural death.
So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.
Gotcha.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Didn't work though, did it?
Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.
If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.
If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
Well, that's that then. People die tragically, so God's not God. Frankly, I'm not going to argue against this view. It answers or at least nullifies unanswerable questions, eliminates the requirement of hoping and therefore the risk of having that hope disappointed, which of course is nothing but a cruel fiction anyway if it turns out Christ was wrong. It makes things so much easier. It'll certainly be my go-to philosophy if and when my faith bites the dust.
Comments
Of course not !!
OK. But are you there?
How would I know ?
: )
Lighten up kid. Although, I'm afraid, your reaction is interesting Nick.
Perhaps this old song is true. I can remember it being sang in pubs when I was young
3. And once again the scene was changed,
New earth there seem’d to be,
I saw the Holy City
Beside the tideless sea;
The light of God was on its streets,
The gates were open wide,
And all who would might enter,
And no one was denied.
You can do no wrong. Wish I'd stumbled in to those pubs.
Nah!! You'd be much better nonchalantly sitting at your organ.
'Cos it's made of crystal, silly!
I thought you were going to tell me because the City has no sun or moon, needing only the Lamb--
to which I was going to reply, how do you know he doesn't set his own tides?
All my cleverness, wasted. :headshake:
Which is why we call him the Lambp.
Like this?
Groan!
Seriously?
Before you moved into your present home did you give due consideration to all forms of dwelling? Including perfectly valid ethnic alternatives? Of course you didn’t. No one does. Our choice (assuming that we are lucky/affluent enough to have those) are limited to what is available locally, ideally not too far from food, work and education.
Faith is equally limited to what is available, in some cases it’s driven by whatever the neighbours are into. And people’s experiences of that faith, both good and bad, through family, education, personal experience and media representations, drive choices.
If Islam is correct then yes, I’m screwed, because I backed the wrong horse. Faith is nothing if not a trust exercise.
If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.
Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.
However it is not true that if Islam is correct you are screwed for having backed the wrong horse. As has been said before for most of us the religion which we have and attempt to follow is that which has been put before us by society around us and in particular our parents and family.
Yes ,we may tweak things somwhat and some of us may even make a radical change of direction,but on the whole we follow the directions which we have been made aware of.
Yesterday in the sermon which I heard for 'Good Shepherd' Sunday, a day which many Western Christians will have celebrated, the preacher referred to the 'other sheep' which Jesus mentions. Very often a preacher will try to remind us that the ' other sheep 'must come into the one sheepfold' but here the preacher (in Salzburg cathedral) reminded us that these 'other sheep' belong equally to the Lord and are cared for by him in other sheepfolds. I take that to mean all religions and all forms of any particular religion.
I'm amazed how comfortable you are with this ridiculous situation, where millions are screwed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that you imagine that God is comfortable with it, unless he's an uncaring arsehole.
The comparison with choosing a house is fucking ridiculous as well. All houses, barring structural faults, work as houses. But if the person picking the wrong religious beliefs is screwed, as you yourself postulate, then the comparison fails. It's as if every house except the real one is just a fake facade with a pit with poisoned spikes at the bottom, but you only find out when it's too late.
Do you never take a step back and think "what an absolute crock!" Why not, FFS?
Why limit it to religions?
I fear the reference Jesus made was pretty clearly to the Gentiles, not to adherents of different religions. You can argue universalism, but this is not the text to do it with.
The other problem with using this text is the fact that Jesus talks about "bringing them and there will be one flock, one Shepherd." Which is problematic for universalism because in that case, nobody gets "brought" anywhere, but rather left just where they are; and their relationship to the one Shepherd is decidedly hidden, if it exists at all. Just no on this text.
I’m saying the “adherent of a different religion” was tied up with ethnic identity in a way that it generally isn’t now—the main modern exceptions perhaps being Judaism and Hinduism. Being a Gentile—being outside the nation of Israel—generally meant being an adherent of a different religion. That was the case even with God fearers, as the Law was not binding on them unless they were part of Israel, part of the covenant. So saying “Gentile” pretty much assumed saying “not of our religion.”
BTW, I don’t think the “one flock, one Shepherd” part is problematic for universalism at all. Far from it. But that’s really tangential, if not completely unrelated, to the point I was making.
He's just weary and ill at ease...
Sometimes I think that heaven involves sitting around with Jesus while he has a good laugh at all the rubbish you believed while you were alive. And to some people that's hell.
Come to think of it, it's strangely reminiscent of the way humans treat other humans...
Depends what you build your house on. We all construct our lives on something.
If God doesn’t exist, then we’re all fine; equally dead and undisturbed. I don’t have a problem with that.
Assuming the end of the world doesn’t happen before the end of the century, Islam will have the greatest number of adherents.
If we also take the view that deities have no independent existence apart from the faith of followers then the end of the world, judgement day and the rest, will be under Islamic principles rather than Christian ones.
In this situation, then yes, I’m lost, because I believe that Jesus is far more than just one of God’s prophets. Worse still, I believe He’s the Son of God and God is both One and Three.
But there is no avoiding the fact that each of the monotheistic religions talk in terms of final judgement, sheep and goats, believers and infidels, few and many. “He will come again to judge the living and the dead” as it says in the Nicene Creed.
One option is to just see it as nothing more than scary poetry to keep primitive societies in line and that Jesus (or Allah or whoever) is never coming back to judge anyone. It’s just traditional to recite these sort of things on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday.
And there are plenty of believers who have genuine faith, but feel for various reasons that Jesus exaggerated some of His claims about His return.
Either we will all find out or we will all stay dead.
Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Luke 7:48-50
Expressions of saving faith are not necessarily what any of us think they should be.
"The Lord Preserve us."
They wrote underneath their names
They then wrote
"For we are all trusting
in Christ" ( Underlined )
Didn't work though, did it?
Thought at one point it was about rejecting Christianity for not being progressive enough. Imagine, forgiving sins without reference to the wishes of the victims of those sins. Or offering eternal life to those who believe in Him, instead of to everyone unconditionally.
But now I'm not so sure...
Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
I was under the impression that character, though not memory, is thought to travel on. And if (huge if, 'cause my knowledge is pretty much Ladybird Book level) I understand Buddhism correctly reincarnation is not considered valuable to much as a curse, and the objective, Nirvana, is to escape it.
Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.
If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
The word 'Life' was not written
Because being alive is better than being dead.
But being alive isn't fixed. You're trying to inject it with formaldehyde.
No, I'm not. I'm not sure why you think that.
Wallace Stevens is a great poet, but Sunday Morning is not a coherent argument.
Nor is life like a banquet.
Well, that's that then. People die tragically, so God's not God. Frankly, I'm not going to argue against this view. It answers or at least nullifies unanswerable questions, eliminates the requirement of hoping and therefore the risk of having that hope disappointed, which of course is nothing but a cruel fiction anyway if it turns out Christ was wrong. It makes things so much easier. It'll certainly be my go-to philosophy if and when my faith bites the dust.