Why Easter is s...

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  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I see the finiteness of things as their glory.
    Who likes grapes anyway? Anyone can see those grapes are off.

    Wallace Stevens is a great poet, but Sunday Morning is not a coherent argument.
    Nor is life like a banquet.

    Didn't understand that.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    "Preserve".

    Is there a name for the logical fallacy where a word has multiple shades of meaning and you insist it must mean one of them?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    "Preserve".

    Is there a name for the logical fallacy where a word has multiple shades of meaning and you insist it must mean one of them?

    Equivocation.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.


    If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.

    Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.

    Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door

    "The Lord Preserve us."
    They wrote underneath their names
    They then wrote
    "For we are all trusting
    in Christ" ( Underlined )



    Didn't work though, did it?

    Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
    If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
    It doesn’t “work” only if the life you trust them to preserve is the physical life that is ended by physical death. It seems pretty clear to me that those who wrote the inscription @Telford described were not asking God to save them from physical death, as they likely knew physical death was inevitable. I understood the inscription to mean they trusted God to preserve them despite their physical deaths.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 1
    mousethief wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    "Preserve".

    Is there a name for the logical fallacy where a word has multiple shades of meaning and you insist it must mean one of them?

    Equivocation.

    That doesn't work for me:

    'The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument. Examples: I have the right to watch "The Real World." Therefore it's right for me to watch the show.'

    Department of Philosophy : Texas State University
  • edited May 1
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.


    If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.

    Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.

    Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door

    "The Lord Preserve us."
    They wrote underneath their names
    They then wrote
    "For we are all trusting
    in Christ" ( Underlined )



    Didn't work though, did it?

    Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.
    If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.
    It doesn’t “work” only if the life you trust them to preserve is the physical life that is ended by physical death. It seems pretty clear to me that those who wrote the inscription @Telford described were not asking God to save them from physical death, as they likely knew physical death was inevitable. I understood the inscription to mean they trusted God to preserve them despite their physical deaths.

    I agree with that view Nick. I spent a good while reading this up this afternoon @Telford - thanks. Here are those men's last words. They knew they were about to die, which I believe is why they left a message. I'd rather die in hope than in fear or despair, and I admire them, very much.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    This is where we see the effect of faith and trust in our beliefs. Not everyone who admires Christ and tries to follow the way he maps out is convinced of his divinity.
    It seems that these miners had a faith which they believed would carry them beyond the moment of physical death.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I did misread the original comment; my apologies.

    I am somewhat at a loss to understand how one can be convinced of a religious proposition - such as the Divinity of Christ - in the absence of overwhelming support for its being true.

    For me faith can only be hope. But I hope for lots of things that will not come to pass.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited May 2
    On another note, the Holy Fire is among the people today.

    Христос воскрес! Ο Χριστός έχει αναστηθεί!

    Happy Easter to all our Orthodox brothers and sisters in Him.

    AFF
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I am somewhat at a loss to understand how one can be convinced of a religious proposition - such as the Divinity of Christ - in the absence of overwhelming support for its being true.

    Which is only to say that for you, being convinced of something requires overwhelming support. Clearly that is not true of everyone. You appear to be saying you are at a loss to understand how someone can be different to you.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I am somewhat at a loss to understand how one can be convinced of a religious proposition - such as the Divinity of Christ - in the absence of overwhelming support for its being true.

    Which is only to say that for you, being convinced of something requires overwhelming support. Clearly that is not true of everyone. You appear to be saying you are at a loss to understand how someone can be different to you.

    In this particular matter, yes. I can't understand complete conviction of the truth of a proposition without overwhelming evidence. I know other people aren't like that but I can't understand it at all.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    Would it help at all to switch this to the realm of personal logic, if I can call it that? I don't believe in God scientifically--I don't do experiments on him, and I don't tot up data points on a chart--but I do believe in him personally, in the same way that I believe in my husband's commitment to me, or the fact that my best friend actually likes me. In cases like these evidence does matter, but you're not going to hold out for absolute proof, because you'd basically have to live your whole life over once to get all that data--and nobody gets to live twice. Which is why there's a certain amount of trust that enters the equation as time goes on. And that trust is a pretty tiny kernel to start with, but grows as the person shows himself trustworthy over time.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Would it help at all to switch this to the realm of personal logic, if I can call it that? I don't believe in God scientifically--I don't do experiments on him, and I don't tot up data points on a chart--but I do believe in him personally, in the same way that I believe in my husband's commitment to me, or the fact that my best friend actually likes me. In cases like these evidence does matter, but you're not going to hold out for absolute proof, because you'd basically have to live your whole life over once to get all that data--and nobody gets to live twice. Which is why there's a certain amount of trust that enters the equation as time goes on. And that trust is a pretty tiny kernel to start with, but grows as the person shows himself trustworthy over time.

    Except that over time God hasn't even shown himself to be real, let alone trustworthy, to me. So it hasn't grown. It's shrunk.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    I'm sorry. I rather suspect I cause you more trouble than help when I get into this stuff. I'm going to stop, I think.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.


    If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.

    Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.

    Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door

    "The Lord Preserve us."
    They wrote underneath their names
    They then wrote
    "For we are all trusting
    in Christ" ( Underlined )



    Didn't work though, did it?

    Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.

    Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.

    If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.

    But we rise again in heaven as Jesus rose again.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Anselmina wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Bill_Noble wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »

    Ah, so you are talking annihilation of people, not just sin, death, Hell?

    God is just incompetent then. And a murderer.

    Yes I am talking about the annihilation of people. In an instant they become truly lost. As in gone. And yes it is a horrifying prospect.

    So, the God who does that has to edit our minds to forget them, right? Or worse, delight in their murder. Or both, in reverse order. The thing is, if it's so joyous, why would we want to forget?

    Well, in a shocking twist, God could suddenly reverse eons of freewill and tamper with our memories, making everyone forget the trauma of the day of judgement and the contents of the New Testament and insist that no actually Jesus Christ isn’t the same yesterday, today and forever. But He chooses to keep His promises. The whole point about faith, is that you do, literally, bet your life on it. If He says “heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away” then I take the leap to believe Him.

    The point about eternal life is that there is plenty of time to come to terms. Assuming that I, er, live to see it, I imagine that my first years/ decades there (here?) will be spent dealing with grief and loss. After all, the leaves on the tree of life are for healing (Rev 22:1-2). If we are all perfect, well-adjusted and joyous inhabitants of new heaven/earth, then why is there a need for healing.

    The new creation will be prefect. I, on the other hand, will be a mess. (If I have arrived “as one escaping through fire” then I will be a hot mess.)

    So if I don't bet faith my life is forfeit. Does He wake me up to murder me, like Dives, or is this it?

    Well we all get to die once and after that comes judgement and John 14:6 is what it is. Everyone gets physically woken from their graves to face that reality. It’s called the day of judgement not because it takes place in a 12 or 24 hour period but because it is daylight. Probably far too much light; no shadows. Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. And judgement starts with “the household of God” i.e. Christians.

    And yes it is horrible to think about. But the point is that Christ died in our place so that no one has to (John 5:24). The first death is your natural death. That’s not the problem, everyone survives that.

    The real problem is the second death in Revelation 20:14-15. The only way that you can survive two deaths is by having two births. It’s basic arithmetic; you must be born again.

    Being born again, turning to and following Christ, entering the Kingdom of God, happens before death. It has nothing to do with the afterlife. No one has to die after dying at all. Period. Because the Incarnation means that there is transcendence, purpose. God.

    Yes. You can choose to accept salvation in/through Jesus in the here and now, not in order to survive your natural death (the first death, of you prefer) but in order to survive the second death.

    But you have to make that choice before your natural death.

    So we have to somehow know which of the myriad of religions happens to be true despite the very real possibility that none of then are, and despite the lack of compelling evidence for any of them, then having guessed right follow its formula for salvation or God blots us out of existence.

    Gotcha.


    If God doesn’t exist, then I’m dead forever.

    Not necessarily. There are belief systems that posit reincarnation without invoking a deity to govern it.

    Just an aside. I've always wondered, even if true, what was the value of reincarnation when one can't remember former lives (at least without dodgy hypnosis). Especially if it involves animal reincarnation.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Most Christians have a simple faith and it was certainly the case in the UK back in the day. In 1908 26 men were killed in the Hamstead colliery disaster. They were trapped in several groups. One group of 6 were trapped behind an internal door. Knowing they were doomed they wrote in chalk on the door

    "The Lord Preserve us."
    They wrote underneath their names
    They then wrote
    "For we are all trusting
    in Christ" ( Underlined )



    Didn't work though, did it?

    Do you mean because they died, therefore trusting in Jesus doesn't 'work'? Didn't 'work' in which way? Do we know that trusting in Jesus 'works' only when people live forever remaining immortal despite accident and disease? What a peculiar view of life, and the Christian faith.

    Yeah, but that's what makes it bizarre. I mean, I'd do anything in my power to preserve the life and health of people I care about, and we say Jesus defeated death but we still die. It may be a peculiar view but it's where my logic leads me.

    If you trust someone to preserve your life, and he doesn't, the trust didn't work.

    But we rise again in heaven as Jesus rose again.

    He took all of us with Him already.
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