Is that very Christian? Wild Haggis, I'm talking to you!

Are you stupid, insensitive or both?

On the Purgatory thread about emotions in hymns and worship songs, you made the following vapid observation:

'But because some of us have very real difficulties it doesn't mean to say that we should selfishly expect everyone else to feel as we do.

Is that very Christian?'

I dunno. Is it?

How about being so fucking insensitive that your overlooked my comments about my wife's cancer.

Is that very Christian?

Just fuck right off.

Are you some kind of moron?
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Comments

  • edited June 2018
    Kindest wishes re your wife and all that cancer involves for both of you and your family. I'm seeing a bit of projection, having read the thread. Been down this road myself Shipboard a spell back where I got really strangle-the-b-Jesus angry and churchboard where I had to be careful about attending and where sitting because crying gets support in churches and up that.

    Just hoping you're okay even with shit which passeth all understanding and sensibility. If I could do other than liturgical prayers (working on it, still estranged from personal prayer( you'd be on my list.

    FWIW I read WH and you as ships passing in darkness, nothing much between you. And may I randomly add, county gospel sucks the wax tadpole.
  • Two things: Gamma, :votive:

    I wish to add my support to the sentiment that 'county gospel sucks the wax tadpole' but only because the phrase is simply delightful. I have no idea what it means.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Bite the wax tadpole was supposedly the phrase resulting from transliterating ‘Coca Cola’ into Mandarin. Snopes rates it as sorta true.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I will be working that phrase into conversation at the earliest opportunity.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    I will be working that phrase into conversation at the earliest opportunity.
    Yes! And, with the permission of @NOprophet_NØprofit, “the shit that passeth all understanding.” That’s just awesome and spot on.

    :votive: :votive: Gamaliel

  • TortufTortuf Shipmate

    Is that very Christian?'
    Kindest wishes re your wife and all that cancer involves for both of you and your family. . . Been down this road myself Shipboard a spell back . . .

    Just hoping you're okay even with shit which passeth all understanding and sensibility.

    Gamma,

    Dunno know about what WG posted. If you want an example of being Christian I think you have it in several places.

    I hope that you and your family find peace. There are no words I, or anyone else, can tell you that will make things better. What I can do is tell you that I lifted you up in prayer and I care about you. Peace be with you.

  • Thanks Tortuf.

    'County gospel'?

    Don't you mean 'Country Gospel', NOProphet?

    In the UK 'County' Gospel might refer to 'the county set', the posh but dim fox hunting yahoos from the shires ...

    'He/she's very county ...'

    At any rate, yes, you're right, Wild Haggis and I are like Ships passing in the dark. I don't mind that as long as she doesn't piss from her deck onto mine.

    Wild Haggis isn't at all bad, just a few slates missing off the roof in the sensitivity and common sense department.

  • I'll stick my hand up for those crimes too... Do you remember Tim Nice but Dim? For those who wish to know a little more about the operation of the English Class System, here is a little video. There are images of cross-dressing.
  • balaambalaam Shipmate
    Dear fucking Gamma fucking Gamaliel the fuckhead.

    Fuck off.

    Wild Haggis was right.

    I know how it feels to see a loved one with cancer.

    My father is being treated for Prostate cancer. Yes I know and I sympathise.

    My father in law had bowel cancer. I was there the day he died. Yes died. At the funeral we had several of these modern worship songs that are doing nothing for your wife. We had them because my father in law had chosen them himself because these were the songs that brought him comfort.

    So when Wild Haggis said, "But because some of us have very real difficulties it doesn't mean to say that we should selfishly expect everyone else to feel as we do." she was right, even for cancer. Your wife's experience is not the same as my father's or father in law's experience.

    Cancer affects people differently, the only common experience is that it fucks people up, not just the sufferer, but those around them as well. I wanted to vent on the other thread, but did not wish to derail it, but here we are, the person who hurt me in their post has started a Hell thread. Good, I can vent.

    You will need to vent too, several times. You see cancer does not just fuck people's lives up once, but over and over again. I really hope you can find comfort for her and yourself. Some of that comfort will come from venting. So vent away, at me if you like, what I have gone through and am going through is far worse than anything you can dish out on these boards.

    Wild Haggis is not the target, I am offering myself as an alternative target. Come on, give it your best shot, I understand.
  • balaam wrote: »
    Wild Haggis is not the target, I am offering myself as an alternative target. Come on, give it your best shot, I understand.

    Pin the tail on the Jesus Donkey everyone!
  • No, I'm not going to 'target' you Balaam. Vent away.

    My comments were aimed at Wild Haggis, not you and if I caused inadvertent collateral damage I am sorry for doing so.

    I've yet to go where you've been with cancer so no, I'm not going to sound off at you because I know that one day I will.

    Vent away. Be my guest.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    The phrase "the shit that passeth all understanding" really is excellent and how horrible that it applies to so many situations.
    I would add a little votive candle doodah but I'm not sure I know how. Prayers for those dealing with the shit anyway.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    if I caused inadvertent collateral damage I am sorry for doing so.
    As penance, please read this (can it really be 15 years old?) thread and more especially this post (first part) as many times as it takes to get the message through.

  • Thanks.

    It's still all under control with us. My wife was diagnosed with incurable secondary cancer two years ago. We don't know long she has but we are dealing with it, living with it.

    I'm sorry I upset Balaam. It wasn't my intention. In dealing with what I took to be Wild Haggis's insensitivity it looks if I was inadvertently insensitive myself. I should have ignored her inane comments.

    Looking back at the thread I thought I'd made it clear that I didn't begrudge people joy or comfort from contemporary worship songs, but it seems I hadn't and caused offence and upset. I apologise for that.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    There is a thing whereby people avoid responsibility by qualifying apologies.

    But there is also a thing whereby people say something daft that inadvertantly hits someone who wasn't involved.

    I'm not sure what happened here.

    -

    But I know this: My god, it [the horrible things happening in your lives] is shite. I don't know how you all do it.
  • Sorry, I cross-posted with you, Eutychus.
  • I might have said something daft, Mr cheesy but I was upset. So is Balaam. I am sorry I upset him. No qualifications there
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Well you convinced me, but it sounded like Euty was saying your qualified apology wasn't worth anything. I think you think you genuinely were not trying to hurt an innocent bystander.
  • I am sorry I hurt an innocent bystander. Equally, I can understand Eutychus's intervention too.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    What's the matter with people, can't you just stay offended for once? All this sodding empathy.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    There is a thing whereby people avoid responsibility by qualifying apologies.

    But there is also a thing whereby people say something daft that inadvertantly hits someone who wasn't involved.
    That thread, and especially Erin's post that I linked to, played a big part in me coming to the understanding that the only appropriate first response in such cases is: "I'm sorry I hurt you".

    Being able to say that, and not saying anything until one can say it and mean it is, to my mind, a good test of whether one a) really is sorry b) has really become aware of the hurt caused.

    Depending on how the hurt person responds, other clarification may follow. But that comes first and as Erin says, anything that comes after it without a response from the hurt person comes across as self-justification and in the cold light of day, very probably is (if I'm anything to go by).

    Indeed, I'm far from perfect at this myself, but it's a course of action I aspire to, because I think it's the right one. Just another little bit of Erin's legacy.
  • Martin--
    Martin54 wrote: »
    What's the matter with people, can't you just stay offended for once? All this sodding empathy.

    Marvin the android from the H2G2 books, is that you?
    (wink)
  • I think the bottom line is that I certainly owe Balaam an apology. Unequivocally.

    I'm less convinced Wild Haggis deserves one but I'm prepared to forgive and forget.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Posting that last sentence is kind of oxymoronic.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Oh give it up Eutychus. He attacked one person accidentally whilst trying to attack another. He's apologised for the former but not the latter.

    It's not that hard to understand.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    You've obviously never been on the receiving end of people coming up to you and saying, with a suitable quasi-spiritual leer, "you really hurt me a while back [not infrequently without specifying how] but it's all okay because it's all forgiven and forgotten as far as I'm concerned".

    If it was really forgiven and forgotten then there is absolutely no need to bring it up (again).

    Bringing it up (again) is fine to work through to resolution.

    However, bringing it up again whilst making out there's nothing left to be resolved, which is what "forgive and forget" implies, is just a way of trying to have the last word and keep the upper hand.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Really. I've obviously not experienced non-apologies.

    Get your head out of your arse. And stop making assumptions of those who disagree with you.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    That was sarcasm, not an assumption.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    NOT taking a side on any of this.

    But as a general statement on forgiving and forgetting: I've mentioned a difficult relative on the DR thread here in Hell. When I would apologize, I was usually told "Oh, there's nothing to forgive!"--and then the person would hold a grudge forever. Even for small things. That's not even getting into faults of mine that existed purely in the person's head.

    Made me do a lot of thinking and reading about forgiveness. When someone brings it up, I want to find out exactly what they mean. Christianity and Christians (broad brush on both) have fostered bad interpretations of forgiveness, which have done a lot of damage: "Make nice" with the person; keep them in your life; ignore the fact that they frequently harm you (e.g., abuse, embezzlement, etc.); pushing people to forgive (in whatever way) when they're just not ready, or when it would be harmful or dangerous. Etc.

    I read once, in a Christian book, how the author had been attacked by a mentally ill person with a sledge hammer. After some recovery by the author, and the attacker finishing whatever legal matters followed, the author decided he must get involved in the attacker's life, try to help him, etc. I can see that, sort of. But IMHO he put both himself and the attacker at risk. He'd be putting temptation in front of something who might not be capable of resisting it. As a Buddhist teacher said, "Have compassion, but not *idiot* compassion".

    I've found that, for me, it's easier to forgive serious harm if I can begin to get free of what the person did. It's apt to be baby steps of taking care of and healing myself. If I can get past what they did, in spite of the damage, then I'm getting my life back--and they don't have such a hold on me anymore.

    Of course, if I lived with other people, that would get tested to the max! (wink)

    {We now return to the toasty rigors of Hell.}
  • If it helps, Eutychus, I over-reacted to a comment Wild Haggis made and called her to Hell. She hasn't been here. She may be away or else refusing to descend to these Nether Regions. Who knows?

    In doing so, I inadvertently upset Balaam who has lost relatives to cancer. I didn't mean to do that and I apologise. I am going to lose my wife to cancer unless I get run over by a bus or contract a terminal illness that despatches me first.

    So Balaam is feeling understandably raw. So am I at times. Hence my attempt to roast Wild Haggis.

    I've got over that now. I'm prepared to leave her alone. I still think she has all the sensitivity of a breeze block but even so, I'm prepared to cut her some slack.

    I don't know whether that's me trying to maintain the upperhand or what the fuck it is but that's how I feel.

    If you keep on with your pious observations and holier than thou bluster I will tell you to fuck off and all.

    Does that make things clear?

    Apologies to Balaam and Wild Haggis but a challenge to you if you fucking keep on.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    That was sarcasm, not an assumption.

    Oh right. How about not doing that.

    How about stop assuming that a simple explanation posted by a single person years ago is helpful in all circumstances?
  • Indeed. I'm with mr cheesy on that, Eutychus

    While I'm at it, how about desisting from being a pompous, self-righteous prat?
  • While I'm at it, how about desisting from being a pompous, self-righteous prat?

    I think you are at risk of what we call here "pot, kettle, thingy", GG.


  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Also, y'know, quite a lot of us remember what Erin said and did.

    Misrepresenting and taking her words out of context isn't particularly endearing.

    For example: I distinctly remember Erin fairly regularly chewing people over, including telling them what they could do to themselves with farm implements.

    I think it is pretty unlikely that Erin would have apologised for the coarse language and graphic imagery. If someone unconnected had said it was offensive because their relative (like one of mine, as it happens) was killed by a piece of farm machinery at best Erin would have said that that connection was unintentional. I don't think anyone here at the time thought that the talk of farm implements was intended to be offensive to farmers.

    There is fairly obviously a difference between some other person being affected unintentionally by a choice of words and someone who is being deliberately offensive trying to get themselves off the hook with a "oh, I'm so sorry for any hurt you might have felt from my words which i can assure you was unintentional" which clearly is an effort at non-apology and victim blaming.

    The fact that Gamaliel is in the middle of a cancer shitstorm suggests fairly strongly that he wouldn't deliberately say something that would be offensive to other people who have experienced or are experiencing that burden, because that'd be fucking stupid.

    When it is pointed out that his words could be read like that, he's apologised saying it was unintentional.

    Nothing wrong with that at all.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Kittyville wrote: »
    While I'm at it, how about desisting from being a pompous, self-righteous prat?

    I think you are at risk of what we call here "pot, kettle, thingy", GG.


    You seriously think that is is the same when someone in the midst of a life crisis uses hell in the way that it is intended to be used and when someone else seeks to cite something someone who died years ago said in order to close down the rant?

    It isn't. Not even close.
  • edited June 2018
    I didn't know Erin. Bringing up what someone might say were he or she alive is total crap. If they're not here to say it, and even if it's written in the bible or a hagiography, how about say your own things. Applied to current situation.

    We've probably all lost people to cancer and stand to lose more. Both family and friends. It's really hard. The getting through is ineffable. Probably some of you are similar to me and some are very different on how you'll get through. No plan, all uncertainty. What can you do? Just do that.
  • Kittyville wrote: »
    While I'm at it, how about desisting from being a pompous, self-righteous prat?

    I think you are at risk of what we call here "pot, kettle, thingy", GG.


    I appreciate mr cheesy's supportive comment on this one Kittyville and am tempted to tell you where to get off too.

    However, I won't do so.

    Instead, I'll repeat a story Fr Gregory from Ye Olde Shippe told me. He features a lot in the thread from 15 years ago that Eutychus has so helpfully reminded us of. It's a good thread too, by the way and features some of Erin at her best.

    That story is as follows.

    Fr Gregory, an Orthodox priest, told me of a rather camp Anglo-Catholic priest he knew who was once challenged by a very low church Anglican that the only reason clergy of his persuasion robed up and pranced around as they did was because, "they liked dressing up."

    The AC priest flounced away saying, "Well at least we admit it!"

    ;)

    Can I be guilty of the "pot and kettle" thing? Yes, I can.

    At least I admit it.

    ;)
  • County gospel sucks the wax tadpole.
  • Indeed it does.

    Best comment so far by a long chalk.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    ... unless I get run over by a bus or contract a terminal illness that despatches me first.
    Why not "both/and", Gamaliel? :wink:

  • Ha ha - another good comment!
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Not all posters choose to reveal the shit they're going through. Gauging how much shit we are variously going through on the basis of how much we post about it is not a good plan.

    Perhaps Wild Haggis, along with plenty of others, simply chooses not to post about her shit.
  • balaambalaam Shipmate
    Whenever you reveal the shit you are going to online someone comes along who disagrees and is going through more shit.

    I do not bear grudges, I forgive @Gamma Gamaliel unequivocally. Only two years in, he has too much to go through.
  • You are very understanding Balaam.

    I am not worthy.

    I also recognise that Wild Haggis may be showing restraint and have shit to deal with. I follow your example. I forgive her unreservedly.

    The fault is mine not hers.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    Not really a hell comment - just want to express best wishes for everyone - oh god I'm such a wet Anglican
  • Only if the font springs a leak. It's Baptists who ought to be the wettest - but frequently aren't.
  • I have just come onto this thread and have been shocked and upset.

    Gamma - you have caused me now to leave Ship of Fools. Goodbye folks. It has been nice chatting to some of you and debating with some of you, learning things and having fun too.

    I'm not quite sure what I have said to personally offend you but..............I have been offended many times and so have others and they don't launch personal nasty attacks like this. You have absolutely no idea what my life is like and what I have been through. I am not making comments out of ignorance.

    I sad to go but.......................... Bye bye.
  • Yeah, pretty certain he made perfectly clear what offended him...
  • MMMMMM Shipmate
    Is this the new Ship's first flounce?

    MMM
  • Only if you don't count the Steve Langton flouncethatwasn't
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