From what I can recall from law school, New South Wales kept distinctions between common law and equity much, much longer than any other State.
I hadn't been conscious, though, that this translated into lawyers actually being admitted into separate roles. I suppose I read in law reports about cases where you had a judge in equity.
The distinction was retained here until 1 July 1972. The other States were probably still colonies when they followed the English change of the mid 1870s. As far as NSW was concerned, there were very different forms of pleading as well as the complete separation of law and equity. FWIW, I can still do old forms of pleading for a whole range of disputes, a now totally useless skill.
There were Judges in Equity, as distinct from the present appointment of Judges of the Court assigned to different divisions. As far as admission, I doubt that anyone was ever admitted to just one of the 3; there was very little practical difference.
That's interesting. We still recognise the difference between common law and equity here. There's also still a Chancery Division of the High Court. It tends to deal with trusts etc. just as there is a Probate Division and Probate Registries where one proves wills. However, all courts administer the same law. One can ask for an equitable remedy in any court, not just the Chancery Division. There are of course lawyers who specialise in particular areas of law but they all are admitted as solicitors or barristers in the same way as each other. We still have a split profession here. That has strengths as well as weaknesses.
Compared with those for clearly defined topics, like land law or tax, the standard textbooks on equity read slightly oddly to those who aren't used to how the legal system works because equity operates as a sort of gloss over the whole legal system rather than being a specific topic.
In mediaeval times, the Lord Chancellor was sometimes a churchman rather than a lawyer (Thomas a' Beckett) and the Court of Chancery was viewed as a court of conscience rather than the letter of the law. Attorneys, practising the common law, were popularly regarded as a set of rascals (see Dickens, passim). But of course the Court of Chancery was by the nineteenth century notorious for endless quibbles and delays (see Bleak House). I was personally involved, as a humble articled clerk (legal trainee), in a case in the Chancery Division over the administration of a will that was still going on 10 years after a Judge had declared that it was a disgrace and should be settled immediaely. It had not been reolvedwhen I left the firm three years later. But still, 'Why fritter the estate away on the beneficiaries?'.
That's interesting. We still recognise the difference between common law and equity here. There's also still a Chancery Division of the High Court. It tends to deal with trusts etc. just as there is a Probate Division and Probate Registries where one proves wills. However, all courts administer the same law. One can ask for an equitable remedy in any court, not just the Chancery Division. There are of course lawyers who specialise in particular areas of law but they all are admitted as solicitors or barristers in the same way as each other. We still have a split profession here. That has strengths as well as weaknesses.
Compared with those for clearly defined topics, like land law or tax, the standard textbooks on equity read slightly oddly to those who aren't used to how the legal system works because equity operates as a sort of gloss over the whole legal system rather than being a specific topic.
I only speak here of NSW. The other colonies, as they then were, adopted the Judicature Act changes not long after they were made in England. That meant that in NSW, equity continued to be administered in the Equity Division and common law in the Common Law Division. Similarly there were separate Divisions for matrimonial causes, probate and admiralty. There were judges assigned to matrimonial causes, but the Equity judges dealt probate disputes and the Common Law judges with admiralty. But the distinction which went in England in 1870 or so, and the other States shortly afterwards, had to wait until 1 July 1972 to vanish from NSW.
Similar conservatism saw the delay in the merger of the branches of the profession in NSW way beyond other States. So, I was admitted firstly as as a solicit etc, and later as a barrister. By and large, however, there remains in fact the traditional division between the bar and solicitors in NSW, Victoria and Queensland; to a lesser extent in the other States and in the Territories. The smaller the jurisdiction, the more less the division. At the Bars, NSW abolished the rank of QC in 1993. Until then, QCs had been appointed by the State Attorney-General on the recommendation of a wide range of interested parties. The rank has been replaced by that of Senior Counsel (SC), granted by the Bar Association after a very formal procedure. Other jurisdictions thought of that but rejected it, the argument being that the QC appellation was recognised in Singapore, Hong Kong and the various Pacific countries; SC was not. The alteration has not seen any diminution in the flow of work to the NSW from these other jurisdictions.
I found this in the font of all knowledge (Wikipedia):
By the early 20th century, it came to be used as a general courtesy title for any man in a formal setting, usually as a suffix to his name, as in "Todd Smith, Esq.", with no precise significance. In the United Kingdom today, it is still occasionally used as a written style of address in formal or professional correspondence.
I think it is talking about the UK. This is my experience. It is sometimes used, with no particular significance, in formal settings. It comes across to me as just being stuffy.
Yes, this is my experience too. I was brought up that you wrote Name Surname, Esq on the envelope to any man who wasn't a Dr or had any other title. It was incorrect, or Not Done, or something, to write "Mr."
My Mother still does use Esq thus and when she found out (during my years living in USA) that it's used by lawyers, including women lawyers, in USA, it just boggled her mind!
40-odd years ago an old friend of mine was sent in his first teaching post in Wilcannia New South Wales ( beyond civilisation). It was an isolated life, he had no phone and during term time we exchanged letters. I addreesed mine to R***** L****** Esq, Wilcannia Central School to the amusement of both him and his colleagues. He replied to Sojourner Etc ( to include the boyf now spouse)
Note on "posh". In usage in my locale, places are referred to as posh but people never are. They'd be said to be stuck-up if they flaunted wealth and behaved as if they were "all that". I think it's perhaps cultural to denigrate stuck-up people. It's certainly political suicide provincially to appear rich and behave like you're better than everyone else.
40-odd years ago an old friend of mine was sent in his first teaching post in Wilcannia New South Wales ( beyond civilisation). It was an isolated life, he had no phone and during term time we exchanged letters. I addreesed mine to R***** L****** Esq, Wilcannia Central School to the amusement of both him and his colleagues. He replied to Sojourner Etc ( to include the boyf now spouse)
/tangent/ One of my teachers' college dorm neighbours was promoted to executive teacher at Wilcannia early in his career. Within a week of his arrival, everyone senior to him in the executive team had transferred out and he was the acting principal. Cue a meteoric rise through the Departmental hierarchy rising to the Senior Executive Service before he was 50. If you stayed the distance of an appointment at Wilcannia, you could virtually write your own ticket for the next school. /end tangent/
My poor friend did not. He was medically retired after 4 years, however 30+ years later he is in an equally remote town in SW NSW where he and the local
Elders have put together a course in spoken and written Wiradjuri ( the tribal indigenous language of southwestern and midwestern NSW)
Question for those in London. I've visited London frequently, and lived there briefly, but... How would you pronounce Hainault? I've never had to say it, and I've never heard it spoken. My guess was hay'-now(l)t, with the 't' perhaps 'swallowed' rather than being a stop.
Question for those in London. I've visited London frequently, and lived there briefly, but... How would you pronounce Hainault? I've never had to say it, and I've never heard it spoken. My guess was hay'-now(l)t, with the 't' perhaps 'swallowed' rather than being a stop.
Yes, but the "ault" is pronounced with the vowel in "old". Good God, of course the "t" is pronounced, what do you think we are, Cockernees?
More likely 'Ay-nolt, with a very nasal "ol" sound, says the person who has actually been there, for work, geocaching and Guides events in Hainault Forest, and heard all the tube announcements.
Listening to Biden's speech to the servicepeople in England yesterday, I was struck by how he pronounced "strength," with a very short "e", almost and "i"
In any case, I found some words that are unique to Delaware. See if you can guess what they mean without looking them up.
... 'Spicket' reminds me of various terms for an alleyway.
Isn't that a 'snicket'?
@Gramps49 I have to admit that I've never heard any of those words before. As a complete guess is a 'Toad Choker/Frog Strangler' a tie, as in 'collar and tie'?
@Gramps49 I have to admit that I've never heard any of those words before. As a complete guess is a 'Toad Choker/Frog Strangler' a tie, as in 'collar and tie'?
“Frog strangler” is an old Southern (American South) term, quite possibly used elsewhere too, for a very heavy rain.
Yes. A hot one and a cold one. Unless you've got single handle tap.
Continuing on a watery theme, we're getting eavestroughs replaced soon. I think this isn't the term for these everywhere.
I assume your eavestroughs are what we call gutters.
As for “tap,” that’s one of those words that folks here know what it means but generally don’t use. We do refer to “tap water,” though. But otherwise, the thing the water comes out of is a faucet (particularly inside the house) or a spigot (pronounced “spi-ket,” and particularly used for such a thing on the exterior of a house or building).
Spigot is like above, stuck into a barrel. Into the bung. Which leads to constipation - bunged up.
A gutter is the drainage beside a curb on a road. Gutter is also used to refer to rudeness and rude people. Or someone who's ruined their life. Gutter talk. He's in the gutter. That sort of thing.
A gutter is the drainage beside a curb on a road. Gutter is also used to refer to rudeness and rude people. Or someone who's ruined their life. Gutter talk. He's in the gutter. That sort of thing.
Gutter is also used here to mean the drainage along a curb, and related to that, we speak of “gutter talk,” meaning vulgarity. It’s not used to mean rudeness, and definitely isn’t used here to mean a person in any way.
Spigot is like above, stuck into a barrel. Into the bung. Which leads to constipation - bunged up.
In the case of wooden beer barrels the spigot is usually placed in one of the flat ends, while the bunghole is bored into the widest part of the curved barrel sides, for ease of draining/cleaning. The barrels are propped on their sides, as seen here.
Now, we could get into a spelling war over that. Perhaps it's because we talk about some things and hardly ever see them in print, but for some reason I had it in my head that the rone is the gutter and the rone pipe is the down pipe. (However, I am sure we can all agree that the Rhone valley is a good source of cheap red wine).
Somewhat related, I once mentioned to an architect (this is in Canada) that the sarking boards on our roof would need some work, and he was baffled. Then, "You mean the decking", he said.
Water from a pitched roof flows down into a valley gutter, a parapet gutter or an eaves gutter. An eaves gutter is also known as an eavestrough (especially in Canada), rhone (Scotland), eaves-shoot (Ireland) eaves channel, dripster, guttering, rainspouting or simply as a gutter. The word gutter derives from Latin gutta (noun), meaning "a droplet".
There is such a thing, or was, as a guttersnipe, cognate with raggamuffin, urchin, or other word for child found in the street and possibly associated with Fagin. Somehow, the first word seems to associate itself in my mind, more than the others, with dripping nose and wiping snot on the sleeve, possibly because of the association with drip.
"Out of the rain and into the gutter" is like "out of the pot and into the fire". Particularly because the vision of the gutter is full of dirt and whatever else might be draining at roadside.
Could well be spelled rone (though spell check wants to auto correct it to Rome) As you say @Stercus Tauri I haven’t seen it written. @Gee D it might be a Scottish usage, as that is where I am.
Could well be spelled rone (though spell check wants to auto correct it to Rome) As you say @Stercus Tauri I haven’t seen it written. @Gee D it might be a Scottish usage, as that is where I am.
Thanks, I'd never heard of it. The colour for horses, yes, but not in this usage.
Comments
Granted. I just hadn't seen anyone toss in the American experience, so I thought I'd do so.
Compared with those for clearly defined topics, like land law or tax, the standard textbooks on equity read slightly oddly to those who aren't used to how the legal system works because equity operates as a sort of gloss over the whole legal system rather than being a specific topic.
I only speak here of NSW. The other colonies, as they then were, adopted the Judicature Act changes not long after they were made in England. That meant that in NSW, equity continued to be administered in the Equity Division and common law in the Common Law Division. Similarly there were separate Divisions for matrimonial causes, probate and admiralty. There were judges assigned to matrimonial causes, but the Equity judges dealt probate disputes and the Common Law judges with admiralty. But the distinction which went in England in 1870 or so, and the other States shortly afterwards, had to wait until 1 July 1972 to vanish from NSW.
Similar conservatism saw the delay in the merger of the branches of the profession in NSW way beyond other States. So, I was admitted firstly as as a solicit etc, and later as a barrister. By and large, however, there remains in fact the traditional division between the bar and solicitors in NSW, Victoria and Queensland; to a lesser extent in the other States and in the Territories. The smaller the jurisdiction, the more less the division. At the Bars, NSW abolished the rank of QC in 1993. Until then, QCs had been appointed by the State Attorney-General on the recommendation of a wide range of interested parties. The rank has been replaced by that of Senior Counsel (SC), granted by the Bar Association after a very formal procedure. Other jurisdictions thought of that but rejected it, the argument being that the QC appellation was recognised in Singapore, Hong Kong and the various Pacific countries; SC was not. The alteration has not seen any diminution in the flow of work to the NSW from these other jurisdictions.
Yes, this is my experience too. I was brought up that you wrote Name Surname, Esq on the envelope to any man who wasn't a Dr or had any other title. It was incorrect, or Not Done, or something, to write "Mr."
My Mother still does use Esq thus and when she found out (during my years living in USA) that it's used by lawyers, including women lawyers, in USA, it just boggled her mind!
/tangent/ One of my teachers' college dorm neighbours was promoted to executive teacher at Wilcannia early in his career. Within a week of his arrival, everyone senior to him in the executive team had transferred out and he was the acting principal. Cue a meteoric rise through the Departmental hierarchy rising to the Senior Executive Service before he was 50. If you stayed the distance of an appointment at Wilcannia, you could virtually write your own ticket for the next school. /end tangent/
Elders have put together a course in spoken and written Wiradjuri ( the tribal indigenous language of southwestern and midwestern NSW)
Can’t keep a good man down
Yes, but the "ault" is pronounced with the vowel in "old". Good God, of course the "t" is pronounced, what do you think we are, Cockernees?
Grew up nearby-ish (we used to drive to Hainault Forest to walk the dogs).
MMM
In any case, I found some words that are unique to Delaware. See if you can guess what they mean without looking them up.
Ingert
Baggin-up
Delunaware
Thrashers
Scrapple
Toad Choker/Frog Strangler
Spicket
Beggle
'Spicket' reminds me of various terms for an alleyway.
@Gramps49 I have to admit that I've never heard any of those words before. As a complete guess is a 'Toad Choker/Frog Strangler' a tie, as in 'collar and tie'?
Point goes to jedijudy.
Yes. A hot one and a cold one. Unless you've got single handle tap.
Continuing on a watery theme, we're getting eavestroughs replaced soon. I think this isn't the term for these everywhere.
Despite the usual assumption, mixer taps are becoming the norm now.
As for “tap,” that’s one of those words that folks here know what it means but generally don’t use. We do refer to “tap water,” though. But otherwise, the thing the water comes out of is a faucet (particularly inside the house) or a spigot (pronounced “spi-ket,” and particularly used for such a thing on the exterior of a house or building).
As do we - gutters or guttering.
A gutter is the drainage beside a curb on a road. Gutter is also used to refer to rudeness and rude people. Or someone who's ruined their life. Gutter talk. He's in the gutter. That sort of thing.
Very necessarily so (the term, that is, not the press it describes)!
Drains at the side of roads etc are gutters here.
In the case of wooden beer barrels the spigot is usually placed in one of the flat ends, while the bunghole is bored into the widest part of the curved barrel sides, for ease of draining/cleaning. The barrels are propped on their sides, as seen here.
Somewhat related, I once mentioned to an architect (this is in Canada) that the sarking boards on our roof would need some work, and he was baffled. Then, "You mean the decking", he said.
"Out of the rain and into the gutter" is like "out of the pot and into the fire". Particularly because the vision of the gutter is full of dirt and whatever else might be draining at roadside.
Thanks, I'd never heard of it. The colour for horses, yes, but not in this usage.