Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Jonah the WhaleJonah the Whale Shipmate
    edited June 21
    deletoile wrote: »
    No. It's a spelling pronuniation, common problem for second language speakers.

    Or second language readers!

    Many of those obscure places or names will catch a lot of native English speakers out. But there are also some standard English words that I mispronounced for an embarrassingly long time. I remember an aha moment in my early 20s when I realised it was a-wry and not aw-ry.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    My one was ‘fiery’ is fire-y, not fear-y.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    misled
    mize-eld
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Cel-IB-acy.

    (Spot the vicarage kid…)
  • cgichardcgichard Shipmate
    Con-trace-ption - the final syllable on the analogy of Gumption, a tin of which sat on the end of the bath, for the cleaning thereof.
    (My reading range was vastly more extensive than my experience at that time of my life.)
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Miss-chell-aineous. Probably a lot more I've forgotten - I was a desperately literary child.
  • Wet KipperWet Kipper Shipmate
    Sir Cadogan (picture in Harry Potter books?)
    I thought it was Caddo-gan, others told me it should be Ca-duggin
  • Mi-lit-i-ya, not milisha - out loud reading Pride and Prejudice in class, oh, the shame. I'd never heard it said, anywhere. But I read much more than I heard, and spent years hearing words and realising "Oh! That's how that's said!"

    And then there's the words that are now universally mispronounced, such as heinous, which should be haynus, and usually isn't.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    My now elderly Chambers 20th Century Dictionary says hay-nus, sometimes hee-nus. The online version of the Oxford English Dictionary offers both pronunciations without comment.
  • But there are also some standard English words that I mispronounced for an embarrassingly long time. I remember an aha moment in my early 20s when I realised it was a-wry and not aw-ry.

    As others have noted, this is pretty common in people who have learned words by reading. Should one have had need to consult a dictionary, one would have discovered the "correct" pronunciation, but in many cases, the meaning of an unfamiliar word is made clear by context, and no dictionary is required.

    The highly non-phonectic trivia that @deletoile refers to (Cholmondsleys and Featherstonehaughs, for example), plus all those words that English has stolen from other languages (often keeping the spelling, but abusing the pronunciation) are extreme examples of this more general feature.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    I did once tell someone I was reading a tri-ology, but that was obviously a misreading.
  • All the reading tests I used to administer insisted on hay-nus for heinous, which meant it was often the final word to trip the students up. (Although I'd let them read a bit further and there'd be something else in the same line - the sort of test that continued to synecdoche and terpsichorean.)
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    And how are you supposed to know, aged eight, that what is spelt as if Mac-lee-ode is pronounced M'Cloud?

    Though talking of names, it faintly irritates to hear M'Grath instead of M'Grah and McDow-ell instead of McDole.
  • Firenze wrote: »
    And how are you supposed to know, aged eight, that what is spelt as if Mac-lee-ode is pronounced M'Cloud?

    Every few months, the "get random people to pronounce these Irish names" game resurfaces, and we get to see a bunch of random people stumbling through "See - ob - hahn" and the like. And that's really a category error: Siobhán is not an English name with funky spelling: it's an Irish name which is spelled phonetically - just with a different set of phonemes from those that are used in English.
  • You know, hearing that all the Mc names are up for grabs is the opposite of reassuring. I'm now going to have to ask every one of my friends-of-paternal-Scottish-extraction how to say their names. Ah well, I suppose it's fair revenge for them having to say (INSERT VIETNAMESE HERE), though in my favor I plead that we allow people to Americanize it.
  • You know, hearing that all the Mc names are up for grabs is the opposite of reassuring. I'm now going to have to ask every one of my friends-of-paternal-Scottish-extraction how to say their names. Ah well, I suppose it's fair revenge for them having to say (INSERT VIETNAMESE HERE), though in my favor I plead that we allow people to Americanize it.

    I was at school with two boys with the surname Strachan - one of which pronounced it "Stracken" and one of which pronounced it "Strawn". It was only a problem if the surname was listed, and you didn't know which boy was meant.
  • As a child, I thought people were talking about the ruth of your mouth. I thought it was very odd that the top of your mouth had a girl's name. I think I was in high school when I saw it written as roof, and then of course it made perfect sense.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I read today that Brits say "orientate" when westponders say "orient". Is this true? Crazy Brits inventing unnecessary new words. :)

    Whereas you decided that "oblige" wasn't enough and went with "obligate".
    KarlLB wrote: »
    *cough* burglarize *cough*

    Typical SOF response. Ignore the question and jump up and down on the throwaway line.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    There was a joke in which a person is asked the pronounciation of a sequence of Mac names, spelled out letter by letter. And after MACGREGOR, MACKENZIE, MACALLISTER, MACLEAN, and so on, preferably with a few odd ones, the joker introduces MACHINERY.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    MACEWAN is a good one too. My paternal grandfather (half-Scot, married to a Scot) while picking out lettering in contrasting tiles on a roof read it as ‘mace wan’ - and was never allowed to forget the faux pas.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I read today that Brits say "orientate" when westponders say "orient". Is this true? Crazy Brits inventing unnecessary new words. :)

    @mousethief - Orient is usually a noun in English English, usually referring to the countries of the east, with oriental the adjective. Orientate is the verb for positioning oneself, with orientation as the noun that comes from that.

    You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.
  • Orientate is the verb for positioning oneself.

    Sorry, CK - I can't let that one pass without going all pedantic on you, and pointing out that positioning and orientation are orthogonal. (And yes, I know you didn't mean that, but the opportunity was too good to miss ;) )
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    I wonder if the people either side of the Severn were as much in each others' lives as Kent and Essex used to be in the days when the river was a highway not a barrier. (See organisation of Peasant's revolting.) Obviously greater differences than between Angles and Jutes.

    My suspicion is that the much greater tidal flow in the Bristle Channel as opposed to the Thames would have made it a lot more precarious venturing across the water - but I'd love a definitive answer, always good to learn something.

    (Boy, does that look like a dodgy euphemism!)
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Apart from an instance where ‘orient’ is used as a verb meaning to arrange something specifically to face east, all the other citations for ‘orient’ and ‘orientate’ in the 1971 Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary are within a couple of decades each other or overlapping - with a slight priority to ‘orient’.

    I rather suspect that ‘orientate’ is a back-formation from ‘orientation’ - there is no word ‘oriention’ listed.

    Now I’ve written this much I have a niggling feeling that there another verb which does the same sort of thing, but I can’t think what it is..

    (Incidentally, someone mentioned ‘burglary’ above. In the same dictionary it appears that ‘burglary’ (poss. c.1200, certainly c.1516) is older than ‘burglar’, but not by much, and the late-arriving ‘burgle’ (c.1870) is only attested ten years earlier than ‘burglarise’.)
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.
    I think he was simply alluding to the oft-made claim that it’s Americans who invent unnecessary words, and suggesting it’s not just Americans.
    :wink:

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    And how are you supposed to know, aged eight, that what is spelt as if Mac-lee-ode is pronounced M'Cloud?

    Though talking of names, it faintly irritates to hear M'Grath instead of M'Grah and McDow-ell instead of McDole.

    The standard pronunciation here is McDowl.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.

    Less or fewer - I suspect that you meant fewer.
  • No, I meant less, as in less irritated, rather than fewer responses. No comma between the less and irritated as the two adjectives are linked; there should be a comma if I was listing both the fewer and irritated adjectives as both relating to the responses separately.
  • No, I meant less, as in less irritated, rather than fewer responses. No comma between the less and irritated as the two adjectives are linked; there should be a comma if I was listing both the fewer and irritated adjectives as both relating to the responses separately.

    I think if you were talking about fewer responses that were irritated, there wouldn't be a comma - because fewer would modify "irritated responses".
  • I guess the alternative is to return to hyphenating all connected adjectives and adhectival phrases, but that is more-than-a-tad old-fashioned, and outside whichever parent's school textbook I read it in, I haven't seen anyone do that in the best part of two centuries.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    Hostly throat clearing
    *ahem*


    It seems that we have some prickliness here. I am not calling out individuals since there are a few different prickles. Just a reminder...this is Heaven, and we really do appreciate Commandments 3 and 5!

    jedijudy-Heaven Host
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    prickliness--that is a new one on me
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    I have many experiences with prickliness, Gramps49! Many hours have been spent removing prickly pear spines from the hands of small humans and the faces of curious cats!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    @jedijudy I just never heard the word.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.
    I think he was simply alluding to the oft-made claim that it’s Americans who invent unnecessary words, and suggesting it’s not just Americans.
    :wink:

    Ya think?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No, I meant less, as in less irritated, rather than fewer responses. No comma between the less and irritated as the two adjectives are linked; there should be a comma if I was listing both the fewer and irritated adjectives as both relating to the responses separately.

    Thank you, understand now (I think this does not offend the admonition).
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    'Prickliness' - the quality of being prickly: just as stickiness is the quality of being sticky. And pickiness from being picky. Trickiness from tricky.

    I now have a word ear worm.
  • @deletoile In which universe is written French phonetic? It's not, at least not to my oeil (=eye) and oreille (=ear).
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 22
    @deletoile In which universe is written French phonetic? It's not, at least not to my oeil (=eye) and oreille (=ear).

    Depends how you define phonetic. If it's "can predict the pronunciation from the spelling" French does pretty well once you know the rules. Much better than English, any way.

    Same is true of Irish, believe it or not.

    I can't think of any modern languages that are true the other way - accurately predicting spelling from pronunciation. The most phonetic language I know is Welsh but even then in many positions u and y*** are pronounced exactly the same (and the same as i in some dialects)*. Sounds tend to fall together as languages evolve so once a script has been in use for centuries one to one correspondence is lost.

    *The astute reader will notice that this is the same process that produced iostacism in Modern Greek, the development of French U and German Ü, and the shift of Old English y to the same value as i**

    **Tolkien had the same development happen in Sindarin as spoken in Gondor.

    ***Cymry and Cymru are actually the same word but with some hesitation over the orthography of the final letter in Middle Welsh texts.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    FWIW Russian is fairly phonetic once you've learned the Cyrillic alphabet.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited June 22
    You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.

    My response wasn't irritated as such, but yes, mousethief opened the door by adding commentary rather than confining himself to the question!

    Anyway... on the question of phonetic languages, I always found German highly phonetic, to the point where I did very well in a reading-out-loud test in a school competition when I wasn't entirely sure what I was reading.

    Danish is kind of phonetic, once you're prepared to accept that there is a myriad of vowel sounds and the consonants don't tend to matter much...

  • B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
  • B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.

    So if you wanted a noun to describe a person who broke into houses and stole things, what noun would you use?
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    My best friend at school had Scottish roots, and spent way too much time trying to get people to say Cuh-NEIGH-gie instead of Car-nee-gie. The US pronunciation (as in CAR-nuh-gee Hall) was unknown to us.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 22
    There is an Arundelgate in Sheffield. Named one imagines for the town in Sussex (or possibly some Duke or Earl thereof), which is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.

    The Sheffield street has the stress on the second, which really hurts my ears.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
    At common law, and still in some jurisdictions (including the one where I live), burglary is a specific form of breaking and entering. Burglary is breaking and entering into a house (meaning any residence or dwelling) at night for the purpose of committing a felony. Where I live, it’s first degree burglary if the house is occupied at the time of the burglary, and second degree burglary if the house isn’t occupied at the time.

    A similar act done at a place of business or during the day would be breaking and entering but not burglary.

  • edited June 22
    B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.

    So if you wanted a noun to describe a person who broke into houses and stole things, what noun would you use?

    Thief.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
    At common law, and still in some jurisdictions (including the one where I live), burglary is a specific form of breaking and entering. Burglary is breaking and entering into a house (meaning any residence or dwelling) at night for the purpose of committing a felony. Where I live, it’s first degree burglary if the house is occupied at the time of the burglary, and second degree burglary if the house isn’t occupied at the time.

    A similar act done at a place of business or during the day would be breaking and entering but not burglary.

    I don't think Canada has a burglary offence. I found this: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-348.html. It's B&E.

    And then did a search on "burglary" which didn't turn anything up within the Criminal Code of Canada

    Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different. I don't know the details very well. But increasingly the media (I notice CBC) is calling all murder "homicide". I didn't hear this term before I don't know when exactly.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    So the pirates in the Pirates of Penzance were perfectly correct using the word when approaching the Major-General's house, intending to enter for the purpose of committing a felony.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited June 22
    Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different.
    No, manslaughter is not murder. Unless things are different in Canada from anywhere else I’m familiar with, manslaughter is homicide that does not meet the definition of murder, generally because the intent to kill is absent.

    As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.

    I think the use of words like homicide in places like news reports is a distinctive North American feature. UK reports, IME, would tend to say something like "a man was killed".
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