I do hope that you rethink this and just scroll past GG in the future. You have been a good contributor, WH.
I second this.
I would gently add that if someone hasn’t yet observed how the whole hell call thing works, I can see how it would be quite a shock to be faced with a tirade of angry insults, and realise a whole thread has been erected to vent about what an nasty, moronic, insensitive fucker you are.
And while a flounce isn’t the most effective way to communicate that you’re upset, people don’t always communicate so rationally when upset, as has been seen and discussed here.
I would also add that I am sorry about your situation, Gamma, and I know I am not supposed to say this in hell, but I will keep you and your wife in my prayers. 🕯
I would gently add that if someone hasn’t yet observed how the whole hell call thing works, I can see how it would be quite a shock to be faced with a tirade of angry insults, and realise a whole thread has been erected to vent about what an nasty, moronic, insensitive fucker you are.
I would gently add that if someone hasn’t yet observed how the whole hell call thing works, I can see how it would be quite a shock to be faced with a tirade of angry insults, and realise a whole thread has been erected to vent about what an nasty, moronic, insensitive fucker you are.
WH isn't (or wasn't) exactly a n00b.
True. I was thinking maybe she hadn’t ventured into hell before, so never got the hang of it.
Only if you don't count the Steve Langton flouncethatwasn't
Which one? He has had several. Also the de-facto flounces where he just goes away for a while when he can't answer the questions put to him, then comes back and pretends they were never asked.
The etiquette is to PM. One has no idea if the person will see a post on the thread, even should they be still participating.
Which brings me to my take on this thread.
Gamaliel posted something about which he is, understandably sensitive. WH, a few posts later does one that seems to discount that, Gamaliel become upset.
Thing is, there is no direct reason to connect the two posts. It is possible to be reading a thread and miss posts. It is possible to randomly post something that isn’t directly connected to particular posts.
I understand why Gamaliel became upset. But I’m not sure the target deserved that level of ire. I don’t know her posting that well, but whilst she seems a bit reactionary at times, I don’t recall her being a dick. OTOH, it isn’t hard to read the beginning of this thread and know exactly what G is talking about, whether one agrees or not.
No it's not. Or at least it wasn't. For the simple reason that on the old boards, not everybody had PMs enabled. I'm not sure whether it's possible for people to disable them on this software, although I think the pop-up notifications are quite easy to miss. Possibly a matter for the Styx?
Though if a person reads the beginning of a thread which seems like it will be devoted to insulting them and ranting about them, if they are feeling fragile and get very shocked and upset by it, you could argue that it would be a bit masochistic to keep reading. A person may reasonably decide they need to stop reading for their mental health and wellbeing, and may feel the need to post a final comment for closure.
WH’s comment sounded to me that she was unfamiliar with hell calls, and saw this as an odd, unprecedented kind of bullying. She said ‘I have been offended many times and so have others and they don't launch personal nasty attacks like this.‘ This sounds like she saw this as an odd one-off thing with herself being the only target. Without the context of knowing about hell calls, it could surely be very overwhelming and upsetting to discover a thread like this about yourself.
My recollection was PM if you can, notify clearly if you can’t and don’t who he if they don’t show up for the beating. I don’t remember Gamaliel saying he’d no response from a PM, so assumed he hadn’t tried.
1) WH is hardly a newbie so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.
2) Gamaliel posted his Hell call on the thread in Purgatory, and WH returned to that thread again after his Hell call, with Gamaliel threatening to call her to Hell again after that. That seems kind of hard to miss.
3) WH would have done a lot better to keep her peace at this point. By posting here, she paints the same target on herself as anybody else posting here. It's written all over the top of the board for goodness' sake.
Personally I think it was a stupid Hell call (although I can understand it was born in suffering) but WH's late and flouncy response in the light of her wilful ignorance of Gamaliel's posts in Purg and his later apology here is stupider by several orders of magnitude.
Hmmm ... No, I didn't PM WH about the Hell call but as I'd mentioned it several times on the hymns thread I thought she had plenty of notice.
I did apologise and do regret issuing the call. I don't like the idea of people flouncing on my account but yes, I was pretty pissed off with her when I made it although I quickly cooled down until she continued to act as sensitively as a gate post.
She either skips through threads not reading them properly or else she isn't very bright. Or both.
I hope she comes back but would avoid her if she did. Perhaps I should have done that in the first place.
No one is pure as the driven snow. I too would have been annoyed by WH’s ‘Is that very Christian?’ comment. I understand Gamma’s reaction. Also Gamma has sent lots of people to hell - it’s something he does. He almost sent me to hell when I was new, and kept saying he was going to. I found it amusing because he was quite open about it. Though I don’t know how I would have reacted if he had, because obviously his tone here is very different from in purgatory.
I’m not taking sides - just suggesting that I can see how WH might have been taken aback by the anger/aggression in Gamma’s post here. You can be on the ship a long time and still be unfamiliar with some boards if you don’t frequent them. And yes, posting here does make you a target and people are free to mock you, but equally someone can say that they get how this person might be upset and might not get the whole ‘tradition,’ as it were, of hell calls.
Some people express hurt by aggression, insults, etc., and that is supported by the Ship here in hell. But not everyone can - it’s more socially acceptable in men than women, so some learn to express more in passive aggression. Neither way is healthy communication, but one is supported here and the other isn’t.
Gosh. I'd completely forgotten I'd threatened to call you to Hell, Fineline and can't for the life of me imagine why I did so.
I'm not surprised WH was 'shocked and upset' if she'd just stumbled across my tirade without scrolling down to see what other people said or that I'd apologised.
It isn't my fault she didn't read threads properly although I do regret the tone I took initially.
Gamma, you thought I might be a troll. 😄 You were trying to work out if I was. I was asking questions and you thought I was being disingenuous. Though to be fair, others think this of me online, and many don’t bother to reserve judgement as you did. You kept talking to me and observing and realised I wasn’t.
As for what I said about WH, I wasn’t assigning blame to you or to her. Simply suggesting a misunderstanding had happened. You, being a frequent hell caller - and used to people taking the calls with a pinch of salt - would not have anticipated this reaction. WH, maybe not being a frequenter of hell, might have seen your initial post and been too upset to read the whole thread, if she thought it was all going to follow in the same vein.
Maybe, like you, she will later feel calmer and return, though unlike you, she did not have people posting supportive comments, which can help when a person is upset. So that is why I posted in this thread.
Wild Haggis hasn't been pure as the driven snow. She was fairly aggressive on the Heaven Music thread and pretty much killed it see here
I felt that she has her own opinions (and not good ones) about performers, and was not open to any others, no matter what they might be based on. Actually, I'm a little surprised that she didn't call me to Hell, given how "cross" she was.
I expect Wild Haggis knew about the existence and "purpose," of Hell, but it's one of those things that can be ignored while happily posting in other sections. It's easy to read that Hell's purpose is to keep other threads from derailing and think that makes sense, unless you belong to other forums and find that they manage quite well with a simple "no personal attacks," rule. It's also one thing to read "thick skin is required" and another to actually have your own pelt put to test.
Imagine if you disagreed with someone at work and they suddenly turned on you and asked if you we're stupid or insensitive or what?
I love many things about the ship; a wide range of interesting topics and people much smarter than I am, willing to discuss these subjects with me. There's lots of kindness and understanding and great humor here and I've grown very fond of most of you.
But why we need a section where one person can say a whole string of hurtful things to someone else I'll never know. Why are bullying, dog piles and personal insults okay just because it's in a certain section?
Also, why is it that when someone is so hurt they decide to leave the ship we call it flouncing and laugh at them? It's like nasty school kids laughing at someone who has been bullied to tears.
I'm not talking about Gamma Gamaliel specifically, I know he apologized, it's the whole Hell concept that seems, sometimes, like a high school fight club notion we should have outgrown.
I can understand that. I suppose I'm able to switch in and out of Hell mode and because I've posted and been called here a few times I've developed a calloused backside.
I can eff and jeff at people in Hell one minute and affirm and applaud their posts in Purgatory the next. I appreciate that not everyone is wired that way though and that people can get hurt and upset.
I don't like being called to Hell though and I ought to use it more sparingly.
I never liked Wild Haggis. She got on my wick but I don't like to think I've driven someone off the Ship. I feel quite chastened.
Just because I thought Wild Haggis's posts were generally shite doesn't mean that some people didn't find them helpful or insightful.
I think you'll found there's collateral with WH. She is connected closely to someone else on the Ship. A classic case perhaps of an online persona rather different from that irl
The problem with Wild Haggis has been a lot of enthusiasm in posting, without always reading / absorbing what other people are saying: for example the forgiveness thread in Purgatory where her first post was to tell everyone off for posting theoretically, when several of us had been posting from experience. It has made for a grating tone at moments. And not really getting the different tones on the different boards.
But so many now much loved Shipmates have made the same mistake to start with. It would be a shame to lose her or anyone else through collateral damage.
This thread had pretty much run its course before she found it and posted on it, with no one backing Gamaliel until then.
and "... I thought Wild Haggis's posts were generally shite..." which suggests some quite general antipathy, no?
Not necessarily.
I think some of your posts are good, I think others are shite. That doesn't mean I bear you any personal ill will.
My beef with WH apart from her monumental insensitivity is similar to the reservations that Curiosity Killed entertains. WH wouldn't read and absorb what other people had written but would post critical comments accusing them of the opposite of what they were actually saying. I could cite several instances of that, not all of them by any means involving me.
CK is spot on.
She is also right to remind us that many Shipmates have made the same mistake at first. I'm sure we all have - whether we are 'loved' or unloved on these boards.
CK may remember but she and I used to clash at times, entirely my fault I hasten to add. I often used to get the wrong end of the stick when it came to her posts. My fault entirely. Same with Fineline initially and other people too, I'm sure.
So, if ever WH did come back I'm sure I'd become accustomed to her posting style and not find it as irritating as I have done so far.
As for sending WH an apology via PM or 'the Ship' as Golden Key suggests, well yes, I'd be more than happy to do that. It'd be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, or battening down the hatches once the typhoon's passed, as she appears to have disembarked.
But if it's the case that she is closely connected to 'someone else on the Ship' as EM claims, then perhaps I could convey an apology that way.
In any case, I have apologised on this thread already.
Apologising to someone doesn't involve having to agree with everything they post. You can still apologise to someone and think they write shite from time to time.
There's a difference between saying, 'I think that post was shite,' and 'I think you're shite.' I don't think WH is shite. What she used to post was often ill-considered and insensitive but she's not the first Shipmate to do that and neither will she be the last. Heck. I've been an insensitive git here enough times ...
Comments
I do hope that you rethink this and just scroll past GG in the future. You have been a good contributor, WH.
I second this.
I would gently add that if someone hasn’t yet observed how the whole hell call thing works, I can see how it would be quite a shock to be faced with a tirade of angry insults, and realise a whole thread has been erected to vent about what an nasty, moronic, insensitive fucker you are.
And while a flounce isn’t the most effective way to communicate that you’re upset, people don’t always communicate so rationally when upset, as has been seen and discussed here.
I would also add that I am sorry about your situation, Gamma, and I know I am not supposed to say this in hell, but I will keep you and your wife in my prayers. 🕯
WH isn't (or wasn't) exactly a n00b.
True. I was thinking maybe she hadn’t ventured into hell before, so never got the hang of it.
Which one? He has had several. Also the de-facto flounces where he just goes away for a while when he can't answer the questions put to him, then comes back and pretends they were never asked.
But yes, very poor form to come and flounce long after the dust has settled.
Umm, generally a good idea to PM a person when you've called them, IMHO.
Although WH's name was prominent in the thread title, the new format doesn't tend to blare things out.
Which brings me to my take on this thread.
Gamaliel posted something about which he is, understandably sensitive. WH, a few posts later does one that seems to discount that, Gamaliel become upset.
Thing is, there is no direct reason to connect the two posts. It is possible to be reading a thread and miss posts. It is possible to randomly post something that isn’t directly connected to particular posts.
I understand why Gamaliel became upset. But I’m not sure the target deserved that level of ire. I don’t know her posting that well, but whilst she seems a bit reactionary at times, I don’t recall her being a dick. OTOH, it isn’t hard to read the beginning of this thread and know exactly what G is talking about, whether one agrees or not.
WH’s comment sounded to me that she was unfamiliar with hell calls, and saw this as an odd, unprecedented kind of bullying. She said ‘I have been offended many times and so have others and they don't launch personal nasty attacks like this.‘ This sounds like she saw this as an odd one-off thing with herself being the only target. Without the context of knowing about hell calls, it could surely be very overwhelming and upsetting to discover a thread like this about yourself.
1) WH is hardly a newbie so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.
2) Gamaliel posted his Hell call on the thread in Purgatory, and WH returned to that thread again after his Hell call, with Gamaliel threatening to call her to Hell again after that. That seems kind of hard to miss.
3) WH would have done a lot better to keep her peace at this point. By posting here, she paints the same target on herself as anybody else posting here. It's written all over the top of the board for goodness' sake.
Personally I think it was a stupid Hell call (although I can understand it was born in suffering) but WH's late and flouncy response in the light of her wilful ignorance of Gamaliel's posts in Purg and his later apology here is stupider by several orders of magnitude.
I did apologise and do regret issuing the call. I don't like the idea of people flouncing on my account but yes, I was pretty pissed off with her when I made it although I quickly cooled down until she continued to act as sensitively as a gate post.
She either skips through threads not reading them properly or else she isn't very bright. Or both.
I hope she comes back but would avoid her if she did. Perhaps I should have done that in the first place.
I’m not taking sides - just suggesting that I can see how WH might have been taken aback by the anger/aggression in Gamma’s post here. You can be on the ship a long time and still be unfamiliar with some boards if you don’t frequent them. And yes, posting here does make you a target and people are free to mock you, but equally someone can say that they get how this person might be upset and might not get the whole ‘tradition,’ as it were, of hell calls.
Some people express hurt by aggression, insults, etc., and that is supported by the Ship here in hell. But not everyone can - it’s more socially acceptable in men than women, so some learn to express more in passive aggression. Neither way is healthy communication, but one is supported here and the other isn’t.
I'm not surprised WH was 'shocked and upset' if she'd just stumbled across my tirade without scrolling down to see what other people said or that I'd apologised.
It isn't my fault she didn't read threads properly although I do regret the tone I took initially.
I do hope she reconsiders and comes back.
As for what I said about WH, I wasn’t assigning blame to you or to her. Simply suggesting a misunderstanding had happened. You, being a frequent hell caller - and used to people taking the calls with a pinch of salt - would not have anticipated this reaction. WH, maybe not being a frequenter of hell, might have seen your initial post and been too upset to read the whole thread, if she thought it was all going to follow in the same vein.
Maybe, like you, she will later feel calmer and return, though unlike you, she did not have people posting supportive comments, which can help when a person is upset. So that is why I posted in this thread.
I felt that she has her own opinions (and not good ones) about performers, and was not open to any others, no matter what they might be based on. Actually, I'm a little surprised that she didn't call me to Hell, given how "cross" she was.
Imagine if you disagreed with someone at work and they suddenly turned on you and asked if you we're stupid or insensitive or what?
I love many things about the ship; a wide range of interesting topics and people much smarter than I am, willing to discuss these subjects with me. There's lots of kindness and understanding and great humor here and I've grown very fond of most of you.
But why we need a section where one person can say a whole string of hurtful things to someone else I'll never know. Why are bullying, dog piles and personal insults okay just because it's in a certain section?
Also, why is it that when someone is so hurt they decide to leave the ship we call it flouncing and laugh at them? It's like nasty school kids laughing at someone who has been bullied to tears.
I'm not talking about Gamma Gamaliel specifically, I know he apologized, it's the whole Hell concept that seems, sometimes, like a high school fight club notion we should have outgrown.
I can eff and jeff at people in Hell one minute and affirm and applaud their posts in Purgatory the next. I appreciate that not everyone is wired that way though and that people can get hurt and upset.
I don't like being called to Hell though and I ought to use it more sparingly.
I never liked Wild Haggis. She got on my wick but I don't like to think I've driven someone off the Ship. I feel quite chastened.
Just because I thought Wild Haggis's posts were generally shite doesn't mean that some people didn't find them helpful or insightful.
To be fair WH did make some good points in a number of issues, but some duff ones on others. Same as most Shippies. I bear her no ill will.
Perhaps send her an apology through the Ship, if you haven't already?
And maybe post *here* a simple apology, specifically labeled with her name. No "well, YOU did...".
If you get what I mean.
The problem with Wild Haggis has been a lot of enthusiasm in posting, without always reading / absorbing what other people are saying: for example the forgiveness thread in Purgatory where her first post was to tell everyone off for posting theoretically, when several of us had been posting from experience. It has made for a grating tone at moments. And not really getting the different tones on the different boards.
But so many now much loved Shipmates have made the same mistake to start with. It would be a shame to lose her or anyone else through collateral damage.
This thread had pretty much run its course before she found it and posted on it, with no one backing Gamaliel until then.
Not necessarily.
I think some of your posts are good, I think others are shite. That doesn't mean I bear you any personal ill will.
My beef with WH apart from her monumental insensitivity is similar to the reservations that Curiosity Killed entertains. WH wouldn't read and absorb what other people had written but would post critical comments accusing them of the opposite of what they were actually saying. I could cite several instances of that, not all of them by any means involving me.
CK is spot on.
She is also right to remind us that many Shipmates have made the same mistake at first. I'm sure we all have - whether we are 'loved' or unloved on these boards.
CK may remember but she and I used to clash at times, entirely my fault I hasten to add. I often used to get the wrong end of the stick when it came to her posts. My fault entirely. Same with Fineline initially and other people too, I'm sure.
So, if ever WH did come back I'm sure I'd become accustomed to her posting style and not find it as irritating as I have done so far.
As for sending WH an apology via PM or 'the Ship' as Golden Key suggests, well yes, I'd be more than happy to do that. It'd be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, or battening down the hatches once the typhoon's passed, as she appears to have disembarked.
But if it's the case that she is closely connected to 'someone else on the Ship' as EM claims, then perhaps I could convey an apology that way.
In any case, I have apologised on this thread already.
Apologising to someone doesn't involve having to agree with everything they post. You can still apologise to someone and think they write shite from time to time.
There's a difference between saying, 'I think that post was shite,' and 'I think you're shite.' I don't think WH is shite. What she used to post was often ill-considered and insensitive but she's not the first Shipmate to do that and neither will she be the last. Heck. I've been an insensitive git here enough times ...
It was not particularly Heaven-ly.
Oh, look.
Me too.
The same sun that hardens the clay melts the wax tadpole.