How is Brexit affecting us?

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  • Breaking News!

    The Sossidge is Safe until September!

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/30/eu-agrees-to-delay-brexit-meat-checks-in-northern-ireland

    O what a mighty triumph for Beloved Leader, as the cowardly EU hordes flee before him!
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    I had a chat yesterday with an old acquaintance who told me that his employer's deliveries have been badly disrupted by Brexit.

    What's really interesting is that this is goods being made in, and shipped from, China.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Breaking News!

    The Sossidge is Safe until September!

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/30/eu-agrees-to-delay-brexit-meat-checks-in-northern-ireland

    O what a mighty triumph for Beloved Leader, as the cowardly EU hordes flee before him!

    I shall always ask for double Boris and chips, henceforth, brown sauce please.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 1
    Breaking News!

    The Sossidge is Safe until September!

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/30/eu-agrees-to-delay-brexit-meat-checks-in-northern-ireland

    O what a mighty triumph for Beloved Leader, as the cowardly EU hordes flee before him!

    I shall always ask for double Boris and chips, henceforth, brown sauce please.

    Yes, but preferably battered Boris, please...
    :naughty:
  • I had a chat yesterday with an old acquaintance who told me that his employer's deliveries have been badly disrupted by Brexit.

    What's really interesting is that this is goods being made in, and shipped from, China.

    Is he sure that it is due to Brexit? Because Chinese shipping has been disrupted since the pandemic began due to lockdowns, staffing levels and shipping containers subsequently being in the wrong locations.
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    He used the phrase "because of Brexit", TBH I'd have expected the dread lurgi to have had more effect as well.
  • The vast majority of international trade into Europe goes through Rotterdam, closely followed by Antwerp. Felixstow, the UKs busiest container port, handles about 20% of the volume of Rotterdam, less than 10% of the volume of the top three European ports combined.

    It is entirely possible therefore that shipments from China, or elsewhere in the world, travelling into Rotterdam or Antwerp then get held up by the red tape created by Brexit when transferred to lorry for bringing into the UK - even more so if the items are part of a container of goods some of which are destined for the UK and the rest for parts of the EU. The same would apply for goods destined for the EU coming into Felixstow, which would reduce the volume passing through there if the amount of red tape and delays for stuff destined for the EU market is reduced by going to Rotterdam or Antwerp instead.
  • That may well be the case. I now eschew any items on eBay which, despite free postage, are from China.

    As @Heavenlyannie points out, there are also potential shipping problems, such as *Big Boat Stuck*.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    The British Sausage is reprieved only until September. Other olive branches have been offered by the EU - medecines approved in the UK can be shipped to NI, also guide dogs, and UK lorries won't need green cards to travel into the Republic - and these have been accepted with rather ill grace. But the fundamental problem remains that the two sides' visions of the way forward are totally opposed; the UK expects the status quo to continue, while Mr Coveney, the Irish Foreign Minister, speaking of BBC Radio 4 Today, made it completely clear that the EU side expects Britain to use the extra 6 months' grace period to start reconfiguring the NI supply chains, presumably to bring goods in from theEU rather than GB, something that would be anathema to Unionist/Loyalist Ulster. And any attempt to commence construction of permanent checkpoints at Larne or Belfast would no doubt provoke violence. Geoffrey Donaldson, the new DUP leader, has made it clear he is seeking the amendment or cancellation of the NI Protocol, and hints he would be prepared to bring down the power-sharing government at Stormont if his demands are not met.
    Boris and his friends cannot complain; they talked themselves into this mess.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    The British Sausage is reprieved only until September. Other olive branches have been offered by the EU - medecines approved in the UK can be shipped to NI, also guide dogs, and UK lorries won't need green cards to travel into the Republic - and these have been accepted with rather ill grace. But the fundamental problem remains that the two sides' visions of the way forward are totally opposed; the UK expects the status quo to continue, while Mr Coveney, the Irish Foreign Minister, speaking of BBC Radio 4 Today, made it completely clear that the EU side expects Britain to use the extra 6 months' grace period to start reconfiguring the NI supply chains, presumably to bring goods in from theEU rather than GB, something that would be anathema to Unionist/Loyalist Ulster. And any attempt to commence construction of permanent checkpoints at Larne or Belfast would no doubt provoke violence. Geoffrey Donaldson, the new DUP leader, has made it clear he is seeking the amendment or cancellation of the NI Protocol, and hints he would be prepared to bring down the power-sharing government at Stormont if his demands are not met.
    Boris and his friends cannot complain; they talked themselves into this mess.

    Exactly so, but whether Boris & Chums can sort out the mess is quite another matter.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited July 1
    Eirenist wrote: »
    The British Sausage is reprieved only until September. Other olive branches have been offered by the EU - medecines approved in the UK can be shipped to NI, also guide dogs, and UK lorries won't need green cards to travel into the Republic - and these have been accepted with rather ill grace. But the fundamental problem remains that the two sides' visions of the way forward are totally opposed; the UK expects the status quo to continue, while Mr Coveney, the Irish Foreign Minister, speaking of BBC Radio 4 Today, made it completely clear that the EU side expects Britain to use the extra 6 months' grace period to start reconfiguring the NI supply chains, presumably to bring goods in from theEU rather than GB, something that would be anathema to Unionist/Loyalist Ulster. And any attempt to commence construction of permanent checkpoints at Larne or Belfast would no doubt provoke violence. Geoffrey Donaldson, the new DUP leader, has made it clear he is seeking the amendment or cancellation of the NI Protocol, and hints he would be prepared to bring down the power-sharing government at Stormont if his demands are not met.
    Boris and his friends cannot complain; they talked themselves into this mess.

    Never mind Unionist/Loylist Ulster - if that's what he's said then (and I'm a Remainer) it's yet more evidence that neither side knows what it has signed.

    Reconfiguring of supply chains is diversion of trade, which (if it happens on either side) is grounds for the aggrieved party to invoke Article 16 with respect to the Northern Ireland Protocol.

    Unless of course what they're hoping (which might not be unreasonable, tbh) is that the UK govt might just quietly do it 'for the greater good' as the EU sees it (or a quiet life).

    But either way that's the EU 'expecting' the UK to do something that a specific mechanism has been put into the protocol by both sides to prevent.

    FWIW I would think that reconfiguring of the supply chains in NI to the EU rather than GB *might* be a die in a ditch moment (i.e. refusal to do it), and one where they *might* find it quite easy to get a majority of the UK public on side. Which, if your voting coalitions is dependent on an us v them situation vs the EU, is pretty much a gift to the Tories.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    the more I think about it the last para makes the most sense sadly - maybe that was the point of the UK insisting on an unworkable protocol in the first place
  • I think the point is that there is no workable protocol. With the UK and Ireland both in the EU, there isn't a problem. With the UK and Ireland both outside the EU, it could be made to work. With the UK outside the EU and Ireland in the EU, there does not exist a satisfactory solution for Northern Ireland.

    And, of course, this was both foreseeable and foreseen before the Brexit shambles.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    I think the point is that there is no workable protocol. With the UK and Ireland both in the EU, there isn't a problem. With the UK and Ireland both outside the EU, it could be made to work. With the UK outside the EU and Ireland in the EU, there does not exist a satisfactory solution for Northern Ireland.

    And, of course, this was both foreseeable and foreseen before the Brexit shambles.

    True, but I meant Article 16 is only in there because the UK government insisted on it - the right to unilateral action was presented as a win by Boris and the EU didn't want it in there.

    But now it is - which means that the EU must be aware of the issue in what they're asking for and how it cuts across what they signed *unless they're wanting the UK to do as its told and ignore its option under Article 16*

    I stand by it, both sides signed in the hope something would turn up.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited July 1
    So hang on .... You can't import sausages into NI because the EU doesn't allow imports of processed chilled meat .... but you also can't ban sausages from entering NI either, because that would constitute a diversion of trade ????

    Someone definitely pulled an all-nighter with that one. Well, we knew that already, but even my post-pub-crawl university essays didn't quite manage anything like that.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited July 1
    Ricardus wrote: »
    So hang on .... You can't import sausages into NI because the EU doesn't allow imports of processed chilled meat .... but you also can't ban sausages from entering NI either, because that would constitute a diversion of trade ????

    Someone definitely pulled an all-nighter with that one. Well, we knew that already, but even my post-pub-crawl university essays didn't quite manage anything like that.

    I'm very far from being an international trade negotiator, but in the opinion of a friend of mine who is, that's about the size of it. @Leorning Cniht had it right when he said it's unworkable - it totally is, but both sides signed it, and on the face of it *neither* side should be expecting to get what it's asking for... It actually looks like a spanner in the works designed to force a compromise - though whether it will succeed in that God knows.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »

    Someone definitely pulled an all-nighter with that one. Well, we knew that already, but even my post-pub-crawl university essays didn't quite manage anything like that.

    By the way, absolutely agree with this - it's exactly the sort of thing that very tired people do when up against deadline and it's the middle of the night. Just with more consequences.

  • I stand by it, both sides signed in the hope something would turn up.
    I think the reasons why both sides signed the agreement differ, and hence the extent to which they're hoping something will turn up.

    The EU seem to be trying to find a deal that will work. They know that there are significant constraints - the nature of the EU institutions, Single Market and Customs Union set some well defined red lines, the Good Friday Agreement also creates a set of red lines, and against that the EU knows that the UK government position is actually impossible to reconcile with the GFA let alone the EU's own red lines. They have to square a circle, but hope that something will turn up that will allow a square-ish circle to muddle through - it's probably a forlorn hope, and as far as I can see the only hope there is is the UK government somehow selling a trade boundary in the Irish Sea to the Unionists in NI as an administrative fiction that leaves NI an undifferentiated part of the UK, that needs the UK government to want to do that and the NI Unionists to show a bit of nous and accept a compromise with the only alternative being something that is unmistakably a break-up of the Union.

    The UK government want a deal simply to say they've "got Brexit done" and gainsay those who have spent the last 6 years saying that Brexit and GFA are incompatible, and the only options would be for the UK to stay in the EU, or at least the Customs Union and Single Market. They don't seem to be particularly interested in the details, and seem to be upset by the EU side insisting that the details matter - and that they need to be compatible with international law. Their forlorn hope is that the EU negotiators are willing to let a through details go unexamined that would break international law or somehow vary the rules of the EU institutions, Single Market and Customs Union within Ireland (and, for the Irish government to agree that their nation isn't treated exactly the same as all other nations in the EU - which as a sovereign nation within the EU they could scupper any such concession to UK idiocy).

  • And that's another consequence of the tactics Johnson was playing with trying to get these things agreed at the very last minute before the deadline 31 December 2020, so Parliament didn't have time to properly debate them. It has also meant that those negotiating didn't have time to properly negotiate things that made sense in the future.

    And we've also had 6 months since that agreement to put together something more workable over Northern Ireland and again, we're up to the last possible minute when we get another fudge. I'm not surprised that the EU is losing patience with Lord Frost, who doesn't seem to be doing all that well as the UK's negotiator with the EU.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited July 1
    And that's another consequence of the tactics Johnson was playing with trying to get these things agreed at the very last minute before the deadline 31 December 2020, so Parliament didn't have time to properly debate them. It has also meant that those negotiating didn't have time to properly negotiate things that made sense in the future.

    And we've also had 6 months since that agreement to put together something more workable over Northern Ireland and again, we're up to the last possible minute when we get another fudge. I'm not surprised that the EU is losing patience with Lord Frost, who doesn't seem to be doing all that well as the UK's negotiator with the EU.

    But if my summary above is correct, then the UK can just keep on shipping sausages between GB and NI indefinitely, and invoke A16 if challenged, and although GB sausages might undermine the single market, that is a problem for the EU rather than the UK. Setting aside questions of right and wrong, that seems like a victory for Lord Frost.
  • I suspect that invoking Article 16 for the supply of sausages may be frowned on as it is, according to this Sky news report from 31 January (link), when it was invoked over the vaccine roll out,
    Why is invoking Article 16 so serious?

    It's considered to be the option of last resort.

    The article is intended to be used when the protocol is unexpectedly leading to serious "economic, societal or environmental difficulties".

    It allows the UK or the EU to act unilaterally to avoid these difficulties - but doesn't mean the protocol is suspended.

    The idea is that it's used when the parties haven't been able to agree a joint approach to solving the problems.

    And the other side is supposed to take rebalancing measures - so it can't be used as an indefinite solution to this one.

    I'm not sure that the inability to import British sausages could be argued to be a serious "economic or societal" difficulty. Especially when NI produces pork and could produce their own sausages, or import from Europe.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I'm not sure that the inability to import British sausages could be argued to be a serious "economic or societal" difficulty. Especially when NI produces pork and could produce their own sausages, or import from Europe.

    But the full text as per this site (link) says 'serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade'.

    With 'diversion of trade' being undefined, and resolution involving a set of committees - it looks like someone has been taking lessons from the Church of England.
  • It's not just Sossidges! It's Jelly Babies as well!! Shock!! Horror!!
    :scream:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/01/haribo-struggles-to-deliver-to-uk-shops-due-lorry-driver-shortage

    Seriously, of course, this is no joke for the companies concerned, or their employees and their families.

    The more this sort of thing goes on, with myriad other products becoming involved, perhaps the more likely the result of the Will Of The People will be seen to be a Will o'the Wisp...
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I keep hearing people say, if only Brexit was working. Weird shortages in Waitrose yesterday, fizzy white wine, painkillers, lemons. Is this driver shortage, Brexit, ship stuck in canal, or Boris fatberg?
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    I dunno, I think the shortage of lorry drivers is closer to a Vote Leave prediction. The Vote Remain prediction was that there would be gaps on shelves because goods was stuck in Dover due to onerous customs restrictions, and/or because Kent was gridlocked - neither of which is really the cause of the current gaps.

    The shortage of lorry drivers has a (relatively) straightforward fix: raise drivers' wages to make it a more attractive career choice, and/or train up unemployed Britons to be lorry drivers. Which in the medium term is what Vote Leave wanted: i.e., jobs previously done by Eastern Europeans to be done by Britons, thus reducing unemployment and increasing wages.
  • I keep hearing people say, if only Brexit was working. Weird shortages in Waitrose yesterday, fizzy white wine, painkillers, lemons. Is this driver shortage, Brexit, ship stuck in canal, or Boris fatberg?

    There's certainly a combination of factors at work, but the primary cause of all the problems is undoubtedly Boris Fatberg.
    :naughty:

  • The obvious solution is the elephant in the room. Rejoin the EU. That is not going to happen in the near future. So the second best solution is to rejoin the Customs Union. This would solve almost everything except the blow to the ego of Boris and his mates. We might have to wait till the next general election for that to happen.

    I would love to meet my five month old grandson for the first time. I have a vaccination certificate which is valid throughout the EU as well as Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland. But not in the UK. Maybe one day.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The obvious solution is the elephant in the room. Rejoin the EU. That is not going to happen in the near future. So the second best solution is to rejoin the Customs Union. This would solve almost everything except the blow to the ego of Boris and his mates. We might have to wait till the next general election for that to happen.

    I would love to meet my five month old grandson for the first time. I have a vaccination certificate which is valid throughout the EU as well as Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland. But not in the UK. Maybe one day.

    The problem is for many Brexiteers out means out of it all. No matter the cost. They view the EU like a bad tooth better to have it all out. If that is what people believe is best then that is up to them. They won so we have to live with it.
    I think the country will re enter the EU, but in the next generation
  • Joining the EU will happen when enough people vote for candidates who advocate joining the EU for those parties to be in government. That will create a mandate to join the EU, which could be verified by a referendum. That's how democracy works in the UK.

    Just like how in 2015 the candidates who advocated leaving the EU got enough people voting for them to get a half dozen seats and be irrelevant in forming the government. Ooops. Damn. Oh, well I suppose for Brexiteers democracy is an inconvenience that can be put aside just like the law if it gets in the way of them making oodles of cash at the expense of everyone else.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Cameron. I blame Cameron. Same trick as the Lib Dems and electoral reform. Buy support from people in return for a referendum they will lose. Unfortunately for him and for us all it didn't work that time. That's why he buggered off immediately afterwards.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    To b fair to Cameron he was not the right person to lead us out of the EU. He knew it.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    To b fair to Cameron he was not the right person to lead us out of the EU. He knew it.

    Which is why his smug, egotistical, power-grabbing, silly self shouldn't have put it out there on a plate as a way of keeping him in Number 10 - or so he thought. If he wasn't prepared to live with the consequences, he didn't ought to have gorn and dun it! Not only did he set the whole rotten business up, he ran away from it so even rottener people than himself would get their hands on it and create an even bigger stink.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Yes, exactly
  • Hugal wrote: »
    To b fair to Cameron he was not the right person to lead us out of the EU. He knew it.
    As @Anselmina said, then he shouldn't have risked it.

    Besides, under a Parliamentary democracy a referendum should only be called to confirm that a policy of the government has the support of the people - if Cameron didn't want to leave the EU and leaving the EU wasn't government policy then there couldn't be a referendum to confirm that decision.

    But, it wasn't all the fault of Cameron. There were a lot of MPs, not all of them Tories, who should have known better who voted in favour of holding a binding public vote against all precedent and the norms of Parliamentary Democracy. They share the blame as well.
  • This.

    At least the massive downturn in business and trade with Johnny Foreigner means that Kent is not gridlocked by lorries full of rotting meat, nor are the grass verges of our beautiful motorways strewn more than usual with bags of truckers' poo.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I understand now, Brexit downsized the British economy, thus helping green spaces, wildlife, noise pollution, etc. Now why didn't they say so?
  • Well spotted! Yes indeed - the future's bright, the future's green!

    Factories put out of business because of Brexit will become wildlife havens, motorways will become grassed-over farm tracks, the lack of petrol will lead to greater use of horse-drawn transport (which will be pleasing to rose growers), O the list is endless! And all thanks to Boris Fatberg!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I do agree that Cameron was an idiot to start the thing in the first place. He was far too soft on the right of the party. We should have done things properly. We didn’t. It was a travesty.
    However how bad would things be about g he had tried to carry on. We don’t know but I have my suspicions.
  • If the rumours on Twitter are correct, the much vaunted UK Government deal with Nissan in Sunderland (link to Guardian coverage) is being heavily funded by the UK Government not Nissan (and according to the FT (link), Chinese funding, figures varying depending on where I looked. It seems this funding deal is in breach of the Brexit agreement - link to photo of report on Twitter

    Having read around another allegation on Twitter, that Tesla wouldn't be building electric battery plants in Germany if Brexit hadn't happened, and found that Musk is planning to build in the UK as he is struggling to get his factories agreed in Germany as they don't meet the environmental planning requirements there, I wonder if our environmental laxness is going to leave Britain a polluted mess making the things Europe doesn't want made there.
  • The Dirty Man of Europe rises again
  • And the pollution we can now choose to produce after the shackles were removed by Brexit won't hang in a nasty cloud over our proudly free nation, it will waft across to those people in Europe with their oh-so-high standards. Bonus!

    (What a bunch of selfish shits this country has become. Shame.)
  • And the pollution we can now choose to produce after the shackles were removed by Brexit won't hang in a nasty cloud over our proudly free nation, it will waft across to those people in Europe with their oh-so-high standards. Bonus!

    (What a bunch of selfish shits this country has become. Shame.)

    I'm not so sure.

    With the amount of easterly winds we seem to get these days - at least here in Kent - those bloody Johnny Foreigners are blowing the pollution back at us!
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    If the rumours on Twitter are correct, the much vaunted UK Government deal with Nissan in Sunderland (link to Guardian coverage) is being heavily funded by the UK Government not Nissan (and according to the FT (link), Chinese funding, figures varying depending on where I looked. It seems this funding deal is in breach of the Brexit agreement - link to photo of report on Twitter

    Having read around another allegation on Twitter, that Tesla wouldn't be building electric battery plants in Germany if Brexit hadn't happened, and found that Musk is planning to build in the UK as he is struggling to get his factories agreed in Germany as they don't meet the environmental planning requirements there, I wonder if our environmental laxness is going to leave Britain a polluted mess making the things Europe doesn't want made there.

    The tweet is from 2016. So I am not sure what we are to deduce from it in relation to recent news.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    To b fair to Cameron he was not the right person to lead us out of the EU. He knew it.

    This whole nonsense is Cameron's fault. He tried to negotiate some extra concessions to placate the Euroskeptic wing of his party, and failed miserably (the "concessions" he was offered were obviously meaningless - it was clear that the EU had no interest in engaging with that kind of nonsense. So then he offered them the referendum as a sop to make them shut up, assuming that the referendum would vote remain, and so kick the can down the road for a few more years, after which either the Euroskeptics would have gone away, or at least they'd be someone else's problem.

    That's why the referendum was so poorly planned and thought out - it wasn't intended to result in anything. You don't need white papers and any kind of plan to get a 55-45 vote for remain, which you can use to quieten down your Euroskeptics, whilst also reminding the EU that public opinion is not strongly in their favour, so they should see things Britain's way a bit more.


  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    The Nissan plant is making electric car batteries, so the government can probably claim their sponsorship as R&D, which AIUI is legal under EU state aid rules.

    If so, I don't think they're doing anything wrong per se, except that 'Nissan develops batteries after UK government pays it to do so' is somewhat less impressive than 'Nissan invests in post-Brexit UK in massive boost for global Britain'.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    ... Musk is planning to build in the UK as he is struggling to get his factories agreed in Germany as they don't meet the environmental planning requirements ...
    Hang on a minute - isn't the whole point of Musk and his electric cars that they're supposed to save the environment?
  • Ah - perhaps it's the factories that don't come up to scratch?
    :confused:
  • Piglet wrote: »
    ... Musk is planning to build in the UK as he is struggling to get his factories agreed in Germany as they don't meet the environmental planning requirements ...
    Hang on a minute - isn't the whole point of Musk and his electric cars that they're supposed to save the environment?

    Combat climate change and prevent exhaust fumes at street level. That leaves plenty of other localised environmental harms.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Lack of HGV drivers to be fixed via relaxing safety measures until more drivers can be trained:

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1412745388730245120
  • Then leading to there never being enough drivers trained, so the relaxed rules become the new rules by default and we see erosion of the laws that protect us by stealth
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