Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Why not just say 'free'?

    Because some people's dialects use a preposition. I can't see what's so terrible. Perhaps in their dialects "free" can't be used adverbally so needs the "for" to create an adverbial phrase.

    Also, a lot of these things work by analogy, thus, for nothing, for a lot of money, etc., may influence for free. But as you say, dialects differ from standard English.

    Or because Dire Straits would have to pay for their chicks.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Why not just say 'free'?

    Because some people's dialects use a preposition. I can't see what's so terrible. Perhaps in their dialects "free" can't be used adverbally so needs the "for" to create an adverbial phrase.

    Also, a lot of these things work by analogy, thus, for nothing, for a lot of money, etc., may influence for free. But as you say, dialects differ from standard English.

    I think the point of this thread is to show that there is no such thing as Standard English! Even if English was only spoken in England, 'standard' would only be defined by a (self-appointed) authority's choice, not by one version being the root of all the others. No 'Academie Anglaise', no standard version of the language.

    Well, it's true that no form of English is prescribed centrally, but Standard English is unique in being a class dialect, not a geographic one. Most middle class and upper middle class people in England use it. Its accent is Received Pronunciation, although you do get SE with regional accents, and also conservative RP, rapidly disappearing.

    There is a straightforward test, show me a video of an English speaker, and in 5 minutes I will tell you if they are using SE.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    What is wrong with making Baby Jesus cry? I don't recall anything about Jesus crying ever.
    Tangent: shortest verse in the Bible is John 11:35, "Jesus wept."

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Why not just say 'free'?

    Because some people's dialects use a preposition. I can't see what's so terrible. Perhaps in their dialects "free" can't be used adverbally so needs the "for" to create an adverbial phrase.

    Also, a lot of these things work by analogy, thus, for nothing, for a lot of money, etc., may influence for free. But as you say, dialects differ from standard English.

    I think the point of this thread is to show that there is no such thing as Standard English! Even if English was only spoken in England, 'standard' would only be defined by a (self-appointed) authority's choice, not by one version being the root of all the others. No 'Academie Anglaise', no standard version of the language.

    Well, it's true that no form of English is prescribed centrally, but Standard English is unique in being a class dialect, not a geographic one. Most middle class and upper middle class people in England use it. Its accent is Received Pronunciation, although you do get SE with regional accents, and also conservative RP, rapidly disappearing.

    There is a straightforward test, show me a video of an English speaker, and in 5 minutes I will tell you if they are using SE.

    Well it is a geographic one as well, actually, at least in its origins. 'Standard' English is fairly heavily based on what was going on around London.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    You people don't know how to live if you don't use Fry Sauce. For those unfamiliar with fry sauce, this condiment is traditionally a combination of ketchup and mayonnaise flavored with everything from black pepper to garlic to horseradish. The resulting sauce is always rich and creamy with tons of tang and a backbite of spicy, peppery goodness. There has been a long-running argument about where it came from. Some say Utah. Others say Idaho.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Let me listen to someone and I can tell you if they're from Boston or not. Big deal. Doesn't make Bostonian some kind of master dialect that all other dialects are derivations from.
  • I'm left wondering which dialect of English has 'homour' rather than 'humour' or 'humor'.

    Tartare sauce is for use with fish. It may go with other things but it makes the Baby Jesus cry.
    :naughty: Tangent:
    What is wrong with making Baby Jesus cry? I don't recall anything about Jesus crying ever.
    /Tangent

    'Jesus wept.'

    It's in John's Gospel. When he receives the news that Lazarus is dead. Shortest verse in the NT and, sadly, sometimes used as an expletive here in the UK.

    But clearly not in Canada.

    'It makes the Baby Jesus cry' is something of a stock phrase here aboard Ship and I suspect has RC origins.

    I can't remember who used it first.

    Meanwhile, the originator of another stock and highly useful phrase, 'Is outrage', is here in our midst - the Blessed Mousethief who can surely be forgiven for his indiscretions with Tartare Sauce (sp?) on account of it.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited July 7
    I think Making the Baby Jesus Cry was originally a Rod or Tod comment from the Simpsons.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'm left wondering which dialect of English has 'homour' rather than 'humour' or 'humor'.

    Tartare sauce is for use with fish. It may go with other things but it makes the Baby Jesus cry.
    :naughty: Tangent:
    What is wrong with making Baby Jesus cry? I don't recall anything about Jesus crying ever.
    /Tangent

    Jesus wept.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Let me listen to someone and I can tell you if they're from Boston or not. Big deal. Doesn't make Bostonian some kind of master dialect that all other dialects are derivations from.

    No suggestion that other dialects derive from SE. Why would they? It's a master dialect only in the sociological sense, it's posh.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Why not just say 'free'?

    Because some people's dialects use a preposition. I can't see what's so terrible. Perhaps in their dialects "free" can't be used adverbally so needs the "for" to create an adverbial phrase.

    Also, a lot of these things work by analogy, thus, for nothing, for a lot of money, etc., may influence for free. But as you say, dialects differ from standard English.

    I think the point of this thread is to show that there is no such thing as Standard English! Even if English was only spoken in England, 'standard' would only be defined by a (self-appointed) authority's choice, not by one version being the root of all the others. No 'Academie Anglaise', no standard version of the language.

    Well, it's true that no form of English is prescribed centrally, but Standard English is unique in being a class dialect, not a geographic one. Most middle class and upper middle class people in England use it. Its accent is Received Pronunciation, although you do get SE with regional accents, and also conservative RP, rapidly disappearing.

    There is a straightforward test, show me a video of an English speaker, and in 5 minutes I will tell you if they are using SE.

    Well it is a geographic one as well, actually, at least in its origins. 'Standard' English is fairly heavily based on what was going on around London.

    I thought that this was quite controversial. When I were a stripling, it was said that East Midlands dialects coalesced into SE, but then this was argued against. But it spread across England, and also into Scotland.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
    But little Lord Jesus no crying he makes'.
    Sorry, but if a new-born baby doesn't cry, it's probably dead.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Back to 'for free': the time-honoured phrase used to be @Free, gratis and for nothing'.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Don't know what happened there: "Free, gratis and for nothing".
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I'm left wondering which dialect of English has 'homour' rather than 'humour' or 'humor'.

    Tartare sauce is for use with fish. It may go with other things but it makes the Baby Jesus cry.
    :naughty: Tangent:
    What is wrong with making Baby Jesus cry? I don't recall anything about Jesus crying ever.
    /Tangent

    'Jesus wept.'

    It's in John's Gospel. When he receives the news that Lazarus is dead. Shortest verse in the NT and, sadly, sometimes used as an expletive here in the UK.

    But clearly not in Canada.

    'It makes the Baby Jesus cry' is something of a stock phrase here aboard Ship and I suspect has RC origins.

    I can't remember who used it first.

    Meanwhile, the originator of another stock and highly useful phrase, 'Is outrage', is here in our midst - the Blessed Mousethief who can surely be forgiven for his indiscretions with Tartare Sauce (sp?) on account of it.


    I am a Canadian who uses "Jesus wept" as an expletive with regularity.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Back to 'for free': the time-honoured phrase used to be ‘Free, gratis and for nothing'.
    I have no idea where that phrase was time-honored, but your post is my first encounter with it. Quite redundant, it seems.

    I have no problem at all with “for free.”

  • Thanks to everyone who pointed out my ignorance. of "Jesus wept". (I'm wondering if this was real tears or performative. He could do anything he wanted if he was god. I always wondered why he didn't fly like Superman.)
    Eirenist wrote: »
    'The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
    But little Lord Jesus no crying he makes'.
    Sorry, but if a new-born baby doesn't cry, it's probably dead.

    But he would have been able to really play dead right?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Thanks to everyone who pointed out my ignorance. of "Jesus wept". (I'm wondering if this was real tears or performative. He could do anything he wanted if he was god. I always wondered why he didn't fly like Superman.)
    Because he was also fully human, and humans can’t fly?

  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Gill H wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Why not just say 'free'?

    Because some people's dialects use a preposition. I can't see what's so terrible. Perhaps in their dialects "free" can't be used adverbally so needs the "for" to create an adverbial phrase.

    Also, a lot of these things work by analogy, thus, for nothing, for a lot of money, etc., may influence for free. But as you say, dialects differ from standard English.

    Or because Dire Straits would have to pay for their chicks.

    I realized that song used to have the line, "see the little faggot with the ear-ring and the make-up, yeah buddy, that's his own hair".
  • edited July 7
    And here I thought the line was "cheques for free". As in not working.

    The use of the word "faggot" reminds me of people using the word "gay" to describe something they want to denigrate. Neither being appropriate. I also didn't pick up on that piece of lyric. We used to sing this to students at skits nights when I was university teaching: "I want my PhD": "look at them profs, that's the way you do it, working those students, get your grants for free", etc.
  • I have heard the phrase free and gratis, but not for decades, in that I'm pretty sure that I last heard my grandmother use it, and as she was born in 1913, died 1999, it's not a particularly modern phrase. I suspect that it was a slogan from some Interwar comedian.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    In Welsh we say rhad ac yn ddim, which means "cheap and for nothing".
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Let me listen to someone and I can tell you if they're from Boston or not. Big deal. Doesn't make Bostonian some kind of master dialect that all other dialects are derivations from.

    No suggestion that other dialects derive from SE. Why would they? It's a master dialect only in the sociological sense, it's posh.

    True I should have said deviation not derivation.
  • "complementary" is common here for free stuff, as in complementary coffee.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    "complementary" is common here for free stuff, as in complementary coffee.
    Here (American South) as well. And things that are free/complementary are often referred to as “freebies.”

  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited July 7
    [Pedant ON] "complimentary." [Pedant OFF]
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I never could spell good.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    edited July 7
    [Pedant ON] "complimentary." [Pedant OFF]

    Until this exact moment in my long life as a reader, writer, and English teacher, I honestly thought that "complementary" was the form of that word that meant things were free. Had to look it up to be sure you weren't playing with our minds, but I have learned something today.

    "I instead of E, if the coffee is free."
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    In Welsh we say rhad ac yn ddim, which means "cheap and for nothing".

    'Rhad' also means 'free', presumably cognate with 'rhydd' - so we're back to 'free and for nothing' yn Gymraeg, hefyd.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I struggle with the difference. My general rule of thumb is that if it completes something it is complementary. If it’s being nice to someone it is complimentary.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    In Welsh we say rhad ac yn ddim, which means "cheap and for nothing".

    'Rhad' also means 'free', presumably cognate with 'rhydd' - so we're back to 'free and for nothing' yn Gymraeg, hefyd.

    Make the point twice so even the English can grasp it...
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    :-)
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    And here I thought the line was "cheques for free". As in not working.

    The use of the word "faggot" reminds me of people using the word "gay" to describe something they want to denigrate. Neither being appropriate. I also didn't pick up on that piece of lyric. We used to sing this to students at skits nights when I was university teaching: "I want my PhD": "look at them profs, that's the way you do it, working those students, get your grants for free", etc.

    The song is written from the perspective of an ignorant bigot - but I gather they have changed the lyric now.
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited July 8
    I'm left wondering which dialect of English has 'homour' rather than 'humour' or 'humor'.

    Tartare sauce is for use with fish. It may go with other things but it makes the Baby Jesus cry.
    :naughty: Tangent:
    What is wrong with making Baby Jesus cry? I don't recall anything about Jesus crying ever.
    /Tangent

    John 11: 35, albeit not as an infant.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    "Free and gratis" sounds very much like one of those things that comes from the period of history where things were regularly said twice, once in an English form and once in a French/Latin form, in legal settings because the kingdom of England hadn't quite decided which language was the proper one.
  • From https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/comment/435070/#Comment_435070
    "BAME". I forget what it stands for in UK. I hear talk of "brown people" and First Nations indigenous people. The term "visible minority" is older language.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    BAME can be black and minority ethnic or black, Asian and minority ethnic.
  • I remember a BBC Radio 4 mick-take of the truly dire Dire Straits song referenced here.

    A Sting sound-alike warbled, 'I want my ... I want my ... I want my Ovaltine ...'

    For Shipmates away from these shores, Ovaltine is an old-fashioned British night-time drink which claims to have soporific effects - rather like most of Dire Straits's output.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I’m sorry you don’t like Dire Straits GG, and I will pray for your healing. :tongue:
  • I am too far gone. First album ... well, ok. Second? Hmmm ... after that... nah. They should have stayed a pub band.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    For Shipmates away from these shores, Ovaltine is an old-fashioned British night-time drink which claims to have soporific effects - rather like most of Dire Straits's output.
    Ovaltine, originally a Swiss drink (where it is called Ovomaltine), was very popular and well-known in the US, where it was the sponsor of Little Orphan Annie (1931–40) and Captain Midnight (1938–49) on the radio and the subsequent Captain Midnight series on TV (1954–56). Many younger Americans know of Ovaltine because of the 1983 movie A Christmas Story, where an excited but soon-to-be-disappointed Ralphie uses his new Little Orphan Annie secret decoder ring to decode the message “Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.”

    I am too far gone. First album ... well, ok. Second? Hmmm ... after that... nah. They should have stayed a pub band.
    I guess there is no hope for you, then. No hope at all. :tongue:

  • There is always hope. I hadn't realised Ovaltine was Swiss nor known in the US. I always associate it with the very quaint and terribly, terribly English 1950s advertising jingle, 'We are the Ovaltinies'.

    They don't write them like that any more. Worth a Google.

    Thanks to BBC Radio 4's 'Weekending' programme from yesteryear I also associate it with one of the dullest and most soporific soft rock albums of all time.

    Yawn. Yawn. Yawn.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Brothers in Arms is one of my all-time favorite albums, and the title track is one of my all-time favorite songs. Given that The Wiki says it was the first album certified ten-times platinum in the UK (nine times in the US) and is the eighth-best-selling album in UK chart history and one of the top 30 best selling albums in the world, I have to assume I’m not alone in my appreciation for the album.

    But we digress from the topic of this thread.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    There is always hope. I hadn't realised Ovaltine was Swiss nor known in the US. I always associate it with the very quaint and terribly, terribly English 1950s advertising jingle, 'We are the Ovaltinies'.

    They don't write them like that any more. Worth a Google. ...
    I'm fairly certain the song is older than that, that it came from Radio Luxembourg in the 1930s and that its appearance in the 1950s was a revival.

  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    BAME can be black and minority ethnic or black, Asian and minority ethnic.

    Already being phased out in the Civil Service in favour of DEM - Diverse Ethnic Minority.
  • Gill H wrote: »
    Already being phased out in the Civil Service in favour of DEM - Diverse Ethnic Minority.

    Which strikes me as an absurd phrase, and rather akin to the American habit of calling female students "coeds*". A group of people is diverse if it contains people from a range of origins, with a range of opinions and experience, and so on. An individual cannot be diverse. The black lesbian who uses a wheelchair so beloved of the tabloids is no more diverse than a white man - each is a single individual. (And a group consisting entirely of black lesbians who use wheelchairs is probably no more diverse than a group consisting entirely of white men.)


    *I trust I don't have to explain to readers here the problem with referring to female students at a co-educational establishment as "coeds" and male students at the same institution as just "students".
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    I don’t think we’ve done that for years. “Coeds” as a reference to people went out before my time IME, and I’m in my fifties.
  • I don’t think we’ve done that for years. “Coeds” as a reference to people went out before my time IME, and I’m in my fifties.

    I've seen it in news headlines (on CNN etc.) in the last decade (presumably because "Coed" is a compact word that's easy to fit into a headline).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I don’t think we’ve done that for years. “Coeds” as a reference to people went out before my time IME, and I’m in my fifties.

    I've seen it in news headlines (on CNN etc.) in the last decade (presumably because "Coed" is a compact word that's easy to fit into a headline).
    Interesting. I haven’t heard “co-ed” used in real life as a reference to female students in decades. It wasn’t in common use when I went to college, and that was in the early 80s.

    I do still hear it used in reference to a school that has both male and female students or in a phrase like “the college went co-ed in 1967.”

  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    remember my parents had a 1930 record of a song:
    'Betty co-ed has lips as red as rosebuds,
    Betty co-ed had eyes of mazy blue . . .' etc. Otherwise, I've never heard the expression this (eastern) side f the pond - probably because in those years c0education was a weird and outlandish concept.]
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