Waiting for an elevator while black

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Comments

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    No. The largest demographic of white people who voted Leave were older white people, many of whom lived in the more prosperous south.
    The largest demographic was white, rural with lower education and income. One of us is misrepresenting the vote, that is accurate.
    Neither does it discount the 25%+ of BAME voters who also voted Leave.
    25% of the 15%. Huge voting block, massive power there.
    And none of which has to do with police interactions with members of the public.
    As I have said, if white people had the same level of need to give the talk to their children, things would be different. People respond more to issues they think affect them. Human nature.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    No. The largest demographic of white people who voted Leave were older white people, many of whom lived in the more prosperous south.

    and as an aside, it does look like the class composition of those people was mischaracterised because there was a tendency to group pensioners into the same social categories as people of working age who had no/low income from employment and drew down benefits (by those two very narrow measures, they looked the same statistically)

  • It's too simplistic (ie wrong) to say it was white, rural (because we don't really do rural - 83% of UK population is urban) poor and poorly-educated that was the largest demographic.

    Certainly, those people did vote Leave, but there just aren't enough of them to make much of a difference. There are more BAME voters than rural voters - and yes, close on 2 million votes would have turned Leave into Remain.

    The single biggest indicator of Leave was education. Simply that. (proper granular analysis here). Older people are much less likely to have gone to university or have higher formal qualifications, so age and education combined made up 77% of the variability in the Leave vote. All other factors (income, employment, number of immigrants, rural or urban, everything) were dwarfed by that.

    So yes, one of us is misrepresenting the figures. It's not me. I can safely say your arithmetic and your statistics are ... as poor as some of your other arguments.

    This whole tangent started because you didn't think white people had the talk with their kids. Lots of them do. Accept it and move on.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    The single biggest indicator of Leave was education.
    Education broadly correlates to income. It wasn't the 10% that voted Leave.
    This whole tangent started because you didn't think white people had the talk with their kids. Lots of them do. Accept it and move on.
    Once again, for the hard of understanding:

    If white people had the same level of need to give the talk to their children, things would be different.

    I'm not saying no white people warn their children about dealing with the police. I am not saying that such a talk is not a good idea. But that the level of need is different. If you dress nicely and speak in a middle-class or posh accent, you will be treated better by the police. You have to do something to indicate you are out of place. PoC, at the best of times, have to prove they are in place, even if they dress and sound like everyone else. That is what this fucking thread is about. That. Is. What. This. Fucking. Thread. Is. About.
    Do the police disproportionally target poor people? Yes. Mentally ill? Yes. Immigrants? Yes. LGBT+? Yes. And every bit of that is fucked up. But those, all those, are things PoC face as well. But merely having too much melanin is a compounding factor that not everyone in those categories shares. But one that the PoC in the 10%, even the 1% all share.
    Boris Johnson's children will never face the potential risk that Mo Ibrahim himself could. Or Lewis Hamilton. What a white person has to do to not incur the worst of the police is blend in. Not something available to those of us who don't need the sun to have colour.
    On a thread about the unique problems black people face, you pop in a comment about how white people have it bad too. After CK says it is not the same, you say it kinda is and that, in the absence of BME people, white people get treated the same as they would.
    Pardon me if I don't believe that.
  • Yes, I did say that white people should have the talk with their kids. Yes, I did say that poor white people, in the absence of other groups to pick on, do get picked on by the police. None of this is controversial. We had police brutality here long before mass immigration. You made a huuuuuge thing about it, because ... that's what you do. Get over yourself.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    You made a huuuuuge thing about it, because ... that's what you do. Get over yourself.

    ROTFLMAO
    From my POV I made a statement, you started the histrionics.
    But whatevs, bro.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If you dress nicely and speak in a middle-class or posh accent, you will be treated better by the police. You have to do something to indicate you are out of place. PoC, at the best of times, have to prove they are in place, even if they dress and sound like everyone else.

    "White" does not equal "dressing nicely and speaking in a middle-class or posh accent".
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    If you dress nicely and speak in a middle-class or posh accent, you will be treated better by the police. You have to do something to indicate you are out of place. PoC, at the best of times, have to prove they are in place, even if they dress and sound like everyone else.

    "White" does not equal "dressing nicely and speaking in a middle-class or posh accent".

    I believe what lilbuddha is referring to is that poor white people are capable of circumstantially transforming the public's perception of them with some bathing, clothing, and careful elocution. PoC are essentially denied this option in many circumstances, because their public image can be heedless of their hygiene, sartorial proclivity, or communication modality.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    It's time to rename this thread "Visiting a public park while Puerto Rican."

    A woman was harassed by a man in a public park for wearing a t-shirt that bore the Puerto Rican flag. She pleaded with a police officer to intervene, but he ignored her pleas. Only after other officers arrived on the scene was the man arrested for assault and disorderly conduct.

    Citizens of Puerto Rico, to be clear, are citizens of the United States.
  • Appalling stuff. I can't think of why anyone would have a problem with someone wearing a t-shirt like that, but its beside the point.
  • I don't understand why people behave like that. (Though this guy was reportedly drunk.) I can maybe understand some of the anti-Muslim/Arab stuff, 'cause terrorism. They don't deserve it, but it at least makes some sense.

    I also saw a headline about a worker at a Subway sandwich shop who called 911 because an African-American family seemed "suspicious". From the pic, it's a large family with several kids. I realize some families involve their kids in criminal behavior; but I doubt that's likely at a fast-food place! GRRRR!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I myself was once asked to leave a movie theater because I was "acting suspicious." The suspicious act in question being that I was wearing a shoulder bag.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I also saw a headline about a worker at a Subway sandwich shop who called 911 because an African-American family seemed "suspicious".
    The police, however, apparently were apologetic right from the start and did not detain the family. The worker was placed on leave.
  • Good grief. And in LA? Isn't it majority Latinx?
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    That might have been what peeved the main attacker. Luckily someone got a good photo of her at the scene. Evidently a GoFundMe for the gentleman's medical expenses has topped $200,000.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Trump has told them Mexicans are thieves and rapists. Next stop Kristallnacht.
  • Miss Amanda--
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I also saw a headline about a worker at a Subway sandwich shop who called 911 because an African-American family seemed "suspicious".
    The police, however, apparently were apologetic right from the start and did not detain the family. The worker was placed on leave.

    Thanks for this. The articles I read didn't mention how the cop handled it. And what *this* article seems not to mention is that Subway location had been robbed more than once. (Possibly when the same woman was on shift.) She was already primed to worry about robbery, and freaked out. I don't know the ethnicity of the robbers, whether they were black and she had reason to be spooked by black customers, or not.

  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I do have to play devil's advocate here and say that an hour is a tad of a suspiciously long time to linger over a Subway sandwich, even with chips and a drink.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I do have to play devil's advocate here and say that an hour is a tad of a suspiciously long time to linger over a Subway sandwich, even with chips and a drink.

    You've never traveled with children, I take it?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Reminds me of the time I took my father and his lady friend to the Olive Garden. The hostess asked, "Are there any small children in your party?" Certainly not! I replied.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2018
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I do have to play devil's advocate here and say that an hour is a tad of a suspiciously long time to linger over a Subway sandwich, even with chips and a drink.

    You've never traveled with children, I take it?
    Well, one has to balance this with the fact that robbers often bring their entire family with them on their crimes.
    "Gimme all your money! Margery, don't hit your brother.. Faster, haven't got all day!The loo? I told you to go to the loo before we go robbing. And the key to sorry, the key to the toilets please.
  • Reminds me of the time I took my father and his lady friend to the Olive Garden. The hostess asked, "Are there any small children in your party?" Certainly not! I replied.

    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Grrrr at people having to crowd-fund medical expenses.
  • I don't think that, objectively, one hour in a Subway is necessarily too long, or suspicious. AIUI, there were at least 6 people--4 of them ranging from ages 8-19. If they were talking and arguing (as kids and families do), lunch could take longer than an hour. Plus they were on a long car trip, and maybe just didn't want to get back in the car yet.

    If the place was crowded and people were waiting for tables to be available, there would've been reason to maybe gently encourage them to leave for *that* reason. No cops needed.

    Given the pieces we've posted here, it may be that it was *mostly* several circumstances running into each other: past robberies; large family; ethnicity; repeatedly going back and forth through a door that was by staff member; same staff member freaked out about previous robberies and afraid she's in the middle of one, etc.
  • Re attack on 92 year old man:

    "Woman Arrested After Allegedly Beating Elderly Man, Telling Him ‘Go Back to Mexico’" (The Daily Beast).

    If this is all accurate, then she seems to be a real piece of work. And her *four year old* daughter was right there. I hope the girl has someone safe to stay with, and doesn't have to go into the foster system.

    I hope the elderly man heals soon, and gets all the help he needs.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Even one of Charles Dickens' schoolmaster characters would be preferable to the creature who gave birth to her.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And her *four year old* daughter was right there.

    You've got to be carefully taught.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    I believe what lilbuddha is referring to is that poor white people are capable of circumstantially transforming the public's perception of them with some bathing, clothing, and careful elocution. PoC are essentially denied this option in many circumstances, because their public image can be heedless of their hygiene, sartorial proclivity, or communication modality.

    I suspect the elocution thing is more effective in the UK than in the US ?

  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Answering the door while black seems to be the latest offense.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited July 2018
    I continue to be flabbergasted by the whole thing. That bloke in the article was spot on. What if it was his teenage son? I suppose they have to in a country where most people own weapons, but I find it very very bad that cops always seem to be drawing their bloody guns. How to take a situation to critical in one simple step!

    I'm sure I've made this comment before, but the cops here really do go through people for making false reports, and sometimes people are charged with that crime. In cases of mistaken reports, I sincerely hope and believe that Police in my country would stick a firecracker up the arse of anyone who made a stupid call. As for repeat offenders, Winnie Mandela's necklacing is warranted for some.
  • I haven't read the article, but I heard the gist on the radio. Similarities to and differences from the Dr. Henry Lewis Gates, Jr. incident, probably around 2009 or so.

    Dr. Gates is an African-American professor. He and a friend came home one night. He couldn't find his keys, so he and his friend tried to find a way into the house.

    Meanwhile, they were seen by a woman across the street. To her, it looked like a possible break-in, so she called 911. She explained that she was new in the neighborhood, and maybe the people belonged at that house, but the situation looked strange.

    By the time the cops got there, Gates and friend were inside. IIRC, cop went in, pulled gun, he and Gates got into an argument. IIRC, there was another cop, and he may have gotten them to calm down.

    I don't remember what happened right after that. I remember that the woman who called caught a lot of flack online. I think a lot of people (and maybe media venues) either didn't pick up on the woman's tentativeness...or they just didn't care.

    Eventually, Pres. Obama got involved. He invited Gates and the cop to the White House for the "Beer Summit". Basically, they sat outside with their beer and talked. Someone (Obama?) commented in the media something to the effect that they were two arrogant men who let their pride get in the way. If you look up "beer summit obama gates", you should find the details for the whole situation.

  • I remember that GK. I do think its different if someone sees someone actually breaking in, even if its their own home. I'd call the cops I reckon, although the one time I did see a crime (theft) instinct kicked in and I chased the bloke down and got whacked for my trouble. We had to report as per company policy, and I got a right dressing down from one of the cops for being so bloody stupid. Now that's policing, in my book :)
  • Seems you can also be a black student at a posh college, working as a teaching assistant during summer session, and be reported to the police for eating your lunch. (Boston Globe)

    Who the heck *are* these people who call the police on someone who's doing no harm, without even talking to the person first?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I was brought up to believe that the lowest form of lowlife is the tattletale, the snitch, the Goody Two-Shoes who can't mind their own business.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Seems you can also be a black student at a posh college, working as a teaching assistant during summer session, and be reported to the police for eating your lunch. (Boston Globe)

    Who the heck *are* these people who call the police on someone who's doing no harm, without even talking to the person first?
    As the caller claimed the female student was male, it would appear likely that they were using the police as a weapon. From the article, the uni has a reputation for diversity, which makes racism an even more obvious motive.
    People are filth.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I was brought up to believe that the lowest form of lowlife is the tattletale, the snitch, the Goody Two-Shoes who can't mind their own business.

    Not necessarily. Some things need reporting and bringing to light. I wish, for example, that more people had been willing to sneak on the shits who made my school life hell so it wasn't just my word against theirs.
  • @Amanda B Reckondwyth - you remind me of the gang connected youngsters I've worked with who have assured me that "Snitches get stitches". So in this world, you would have no one prepared to act as witnesses to any crimes whatsoever?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    There is a world of difference between witnessing a crime and reporting same, on the one hand, and witnessing someone behaving perfectly innocently and reporting it anyway, on the other.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    "Snitch" normally refers to the former. But good backtrack.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Also a world of difference between "Officer, that black lady just robbed a bank" and "Officer, that black lady is eating her lunch."
  • I was brought up to believe that the lowest form of lowlife is the tattletale, the snitch, the Goody Two-Shoes who can't mind their own business.

    I wasn't bought up that way exactly, but I was bought up with an us and them mentality, with the cops in the 'us' category. White male culture in Australia had/has an us and them mentality too, with the them being women. There's also the boss/worker line that is still very much alive. You weren't supposed to report across lines. We called it 'dobbing in a mate'.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I was brought up to believe that the lowest form of lowlife is the tattletale, the snitch, the Goody Two-Shoes who can't mind their own business.

    I wasn't bought up that way exactly, but I was bought up with an us and them mentality, with the cops in the 'us' category. White male culture in Australia had/has an us and them mentality too, with the them being women. There's also the boss/worker line that is still very much alive. You weren't supposed to report across lines. We called it 'dobbing in a mate'.
    The problem with this attitude is that it allows abuses to continue.
  • I want to say two things:

    1. Lil, sure. But the point of the system is to allow certain abuses favorable to your community to continue. The welfare of your group is far more important than the welfare of those outside the group.

    2. I'm telling you something you already know.

    JINX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Extending what we consider "our" group is how we make life more civilised and less fucked up.
  • again, JINX!!!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    The latest seems to be being in Arkansas while black.
  • Perhaps, Britain's not far behind. An acquaintance of mine, a respected, published theologian, who travels internationally for his work, and has been a theological college tutor for decades, was sitting in a public park a couple of months ago, reading a book. Two nice ordinary women, with children, walked up to him and asked him if he could move; as his presence made them uneasy. Do I have to explain that he was black and they were white? He wasn't perving on kids in a playground or making funny noises, or talking to himself, or fighting imaginary foes. Just reading a book in a public park.

    I wonder what has been happening in Britain recently that made two white women, of apparently respectable demeanour, feel entitled to walk up to a perfectly peaceable black guy, minding his own business in a public place, and tell him his presence made them feel 'uneasy'?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    What was the outcome? "Yes, I mind very much moving, as I find your request offensive" or "Sho' 'nuff, ma'am."

    Meanwhile, a drunken motorist told the arresting officer that he should let her go because she was white.
  • Amanda B Reckondwyth - He looked up at them and kind of smiled, and went back to reading his book. He said he did think about replying, maybe showing them the book he was reading (a book on theology, as it happened), or saying something to challenge their prejudices. But reckoned that would be more trouble than it was worth. He thought there could be no truly reasonable outcome to their conversation under the circumstances.
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