CO CO Constantine

Right, Steve Langton, you've bloody driven me to it ...

(With apologies to Boney M)

CO CO CONSTANTINE

Right Steve Langton, you've bloody driven me to it ...

(with apologies to Boney M)

CO CO CONSTANTINE

There lived a certain man in Rome so long ago
He was big and strong, his eyes an Erastian glow
Most Shipmates looked at him with terror and with fear
But to Bosphorus chicks he was such a lovely dear.
He could convene Councils like a preacher
Full of ecstasy and lies
But he was also the kind of teacher
Steve Langton would despise.

CO CO CONSTANTINE
Steve Langton’s bloody obsess-sheen
There was a cat that really was gone
CO CO CONSTANTINE
Steve Langton’s fuckin’ obsess-sheen
Such a shame how he keeps on and on ...

But when his ruling and his drooling and his hunger
For power became known to more and more people
The demands to do something about this outrageous
Cont-stantine became louder and louder.
‘This Cont’s just got to go!’ declared his enemies
But the Shippies begged ‘Don’t keep blarting on, please.’
No doubt this Constantine had lots of hidden charms
Though he was a brute bishops just fell into his arms.
Then one night a man of ‘New Testament’ understanding
Set a trap, he’s the one to blame
‘Come aboard the Ship boards,’ he kept demanding
And like pillocks we really all came.

CO CO CONSTANTINE
Steve Langton’s endless obsess-sheen
There’s some poison in the way he whines
CO CO CONSTANTINE
Tiresome bloody obsess-sheen
Steve Langton bangs on all of the time.
He didn’t quit, he wanted Connie’s head,
CO CO CONSTANTINE
Steve Langton’s anal obsess-sheen
Bloody boring, boring until we’re all dead.
Oh, those obsessions ...

«13456713

Comments

  • ??? WTF???

    Are we 'talking' about that same Constantine, whose much-vaunted 'victory by virtue of the Holy Cross' at The Battle Of The Milvian Bridge was so much quoted by our late (but not lamented) Father Fuckwit at baptisms?

    :rage:

    IJ
  • roybartroybart Shipmate
    There've been other repercussions.
    This obsession kills discussions.
    Many topics were doing fine
    Before being overrun by Constantine.







  • Mr SmiffMr Smiff Shipmate
    It's Steve Langton's theory (not just his, to be fair), that Constantine making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire is when It All Went Wrong for Christianity. Suddenly (if I understand it right), instead of a faith that challenges worldly powers whilst keeping separate from them, it becomes a religion that cosies up to establishments, kings, emperors etc. and seeks to share in their power. This has led to Christianity partaking in all kinds of atrocities in order to maintain its grip on power. Perhaps more importantly, it leaves Christianity a long way from what Jesus intended; according to this theory, he never wanted the faith that bears his name to become a "state religion", and Christianity loses out because of its status as such in those countries where it is one (and in those countries where it is a state religion in all but name).

    Steve would point to Anabaptism as a, sorry, the form of Christianity that has avoided all trappings of this and is therefore the closest branch of Christianity to what Jesus intended.

    Which is all fine and good, and actually I have a lot of sympathy with this (as a good... well, reasonable, Baptist). But for Steve, this seems to have become an all-consuming obsession on the Ship, old and new. Like, nearly any thread on which he contributes he will sooner or later try to steer in the direction of Constantiniasm, the dangers of state religion and so on. And, as he did on the "Disorganised Religion" thread, he'll try to insist that this be the issue we talk about, ignoring or arguing against any attempts to steer the discussion back on track, refusing to engage with alternative viewpoints or talk about anything else. It all comes back to this, sooner or later, with Steve. This becomes the issue, and anything else becomes, in Steve's eyes, a refusal to engage.

    It's sooo frustrating, because it just derails everything (which is partly our fault, I suppose, for biting whenever it comes up). It's almost a DH, but it's only ever Steve Langton who brings it up. I wish he would stop and just accept he's not going to convert anyone to his viewpoint here.

    So I can understand Gamaliel's (can we still call you that?) frustration. His song-parodying skills, however...
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I'm not sure I've yet seen the thread in which Steve Langton manages to attribute homosexuality to Constantinianism, but perhaps I've missed it.
  • Sodomy is a curious interest, currently much promoted by pornography, which apparently encourages it as a diversion for all sexes. Is Stephen truly a perseverative mouse-clicking whack job? Or just wants to play in shit?

  • CO CO Constantina, gay lover of the Russian Queen-a ..

  • @Gamma Gamaliel - bravo, sir! Encore! May I suggest the Boomtown Rat's "He's so (Ancient and) Modern", The Clash's "Rock the Council" or Squeeze singing "Cool for Constantine"?

    Seriously, Steve. Give it rest. Go stroke some fluffy kittens.
  • Yes, Mr Smiff, you can still call me Gamaliel.

    Ga Ga Gamaliel ... no, I'd better stop ...

    Thing is, I also have a lot of sympathy with the Baptist view on this issue, even though I'm no longer a Baptist.

    Thanks to Steve Langton hijacking almost every single thread he posts on I'm rapidly becoming the most Erastian Christian that ever lived ... heck, even Ivan The Terrible didn't go far enough.

    I won't rest until I have established a world-wide Constantinian Caliphate in which all Anabaptists are required to minister to my every whim ... make my coffee, serve me drinks, wipe my arse ...

    Mwa-ha ha ha - mwa ha ha ha ha ...

  • Steve is correct in saying that authority fucks up religion, but wrong in thinking that it needs the state to have that authority. Or that any variation is proof against this.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I subscribe to that sentiment far more than your previous assertion that it's people who fuck up religion.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    I subscribe to that sentiment far more than your previous assertion that it's people who fuck up religion.

    So, you are saying religion fucks up people? Who gives religion authority? Might be people, just sayin'.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Well I knew one thing. The Gamma Gamaliel Hell call would be L-O-N-N-G-G.

    But it made me :mrgreen:
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote: »
    I subscribe to that sentiment far more than your previous assertion that it's people who fuck up religion.

    So, you are saying religion fucks up people? Who gives religion authority? Might be people, just sayin'.

    No, I'm saying it's authority, or its abuse, that's the problem.
  • Authority will be abused. Because people.
    The best we can manage is to put that abuse in check. But it is not in our nature to do well or consistently.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Agreed. To the topic, one thing that can be said for established religion is that there is usually some form of due process for dealing with abuses of authority, which is often not the case for independent groups.

    (Not that this prevents abuses from happening or always works well, as numerous threads here will testify).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    IIRC, Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. That was some 60 or so years later by one of his successors. Constantine converted and removed the criminal sanctions against Christianity.
  • Yes, Gee D. It was the Emperor Theodosius.

    THE - THE - THEODOSIUS
    Should've been the driver of a London bus
    Then the Church would have turned out all fine.
    THE - THE - THEODOSIUS
    I'd imagine he'd be like most of us
    Fed up of Langton blartin' on all the time ...

    But C********e tends to be used as short-hand for the emerging church/state fusion.

    As we know from Steve Langton's posts, he was responsible for all ills subsequently to befall mankind. It was a kind of Post-lapsarian fall.

    If you kick your toe tomorrow it'll all be Constantine's fault.

    If you run out of bog-roll that'll be his fault too.



  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    But C********e tends
    This idiocy could get to me nearly as fast as the sobriquets for Trump.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Gods, Gamaliel. I’d rather listen to Langton, or even your previous interminable posts, than your new “style”.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Agreed. To the topic, one thing that can be said for established religion is that there is usually some form of due process for dealing with abuses of authority, which is often not the case for independent groups.

    (Not that this prevents abuses from happening or always works well, as numerous threads here will testify).

    Authority itself can be abusive, and frequently is. The very existence of a clerical class tends to infantilize the laity.
  • What's the melody?
  • Gamma gamma gamma gamma gamma Gamaliel
    He goes and goes and goes and goes
    Reading would be easy if his posts weren't so bloody long
    Hell, where's my bong? Where is my bong?
  • Mr Smiff wrote: »
    It's Steve Langton's theory (not just his, to be fair), that Constantine making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire is when It All Went Wrong for Christianity. . . .

    It's sooo frustrating, because it just derails everything (which is partly our fault, I suppose, for biting whenever it comes up).
    I’d say “partly” is a significant understatement. Yes, Steve’s hobby horse is frustrating. It’s also as predictable as sunrise. The only reason it derails threads is because it’s equally predictable that someone, and often that someone is Gamaliel, will take the bait. It’s as predictable as night follows day.

    It’s simple, really. When Steve makes the inevitable Constantinian connection, don’t take the bait. If it’s impossible not to respond at all, let the response be “Not again!,” and then let it go and move on. Nothing good will come of trying to engage the argument.

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Ruth wrote: »
    Authority itself can be abusive, and frequently is. The very existence of a clerical class tends to infantilize the laity.
    Yes, I agree.

    Thing is, though, I think authority (or am I talking about power, and what's the difference?) is like gravity. It's always there, and sometimes in the systems in which it is not explicit (eg when there is not a clerical class) it's actually worse because it's not named.

    Actually it's more like electricity. Pretty much required to function in (modern) life, but requires a whole load of basic safety procedures which if ignored can kill you.

    Christians are unfortunately exceptionally good at ignoring safety procedures.

    [ETA think about Urras and Annares from the "best place to live" thread. Theoretically on Annares there is no central authority, no ruling class, but in fact the technocrats rule by stealth, so there's no procedure for challenging them, and very hard to call them out]
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »

    It’s simple, really. When Steve makes the inevitable Constantinian connection, don’t take the bait. If it’s impossible not to respond at all, let the response be “Not again!,” and then let it go and move on. Nothing good will come of trying to engage the argument.

    Indeed. My response to seeing that particular hobby horse mounted was broadly along these lines, though slightly earthier.

  • Steve LangtonSteve Langton Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    First off my 'hellish' comment about Gamaliel; I think this is a case where the actually light-hearted tone in which I was thinking the comment in my head didn't quite come over in the bare words that appeared on the thread. This can be an Aspie problem and it's unfortunately extremely difficult to realise when you've done that! Bear that in mind when reading the next bit....

    by Eutychus
    I'm not sure I've yet seen the thread in which Steve Langton manages to attribute homosexuality to Constantinianism, but perhaps I've missed it.

    The most straightforward response to that is on the lines of “Don't be so ********** stupid!”

    A more considered version would be “It might be an idea if you paid attention to what I, repeat I say about things instead of letting others like Gamaliel tell you what I'm supposed or alleged to think”.

    I'll deal with the homosexuality issue separately; I'm now busy on a more general point about 'Constantinianism' or more accurately 'state-and-religion' issues....


    [ADMIN NOTE]
    The posts from here to my Admin Posts below were originally posted on a Styx thread, the contents of which obviously belonged on this thread. I have merged those posts into this thread

    Alan
    Ship of Fools Admin
    [/ADMIN NOTE}
  • And this is one of the reasons that LGBT+ issues need to remain in Dead Horses.
  • And this is one of the reasons that LGBT+ issues need to remain in Dead Horses.

    Unfortunately this particular bit may have to be discussed in Styx because of Eutychus' unfortunate implication about my supposed rather than actual views....
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    @Steve Langton This is the Styx and there is a current thread discussing which topics should be included in Dead Horses, here

    I participated in enough LGBT+ threads on the Old Ship to have discussed LGBT+ issues with you in the past, which is why I am suggesting that LGBT+ issues should remain in Dead Horses.
  • by Eutychus
    I'm not sure I've yet seen the thread in which Steve Langton manages to attribute homosexuality to Constantinianism, but perhaps I've missed it.

    The most straightforward response to that is on the lines of “Don't be so ********** stupid!”
    Here's the original post in context. Which I read very much as you, with the same obvious response. I'm pretty sure that was what Eutychus was trying to achieve. Gamaliel had effectively claimed that you attribute everything less than ideal to the influence of Constantine, that you can take any subject and introduce Constantine. Eutychus shows the stupidity in that claim by picking something that a) you've never said, and b) if someone were to say it then it would be patently stupid.
  • @Steve Langton - I am uncertain as to why your OP is here in Styx. Because you're essentially having a pop at two Shipmates in a Styx thread for something that started off in Purgatory and now rightly belongs in Hell.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    by Eutychus
    I'm not sure I've yet seen the thread in which Steve Langton manages to attribute homosexuality to Constantinianism, but perhaps I've missed it.

    The most straightforward response to that is on the lines of “Don't be so ********** stupid!”
    Here's the original post in context.
    The context is Hell, where I am of course posting as a Shipmate and not as a host, not least because I'm not a host in Hell.

    If you've to something to say to a Hell comment of mine made as a Shipmate, you're on the wrong board.

    (Oh, and Alan is basically correct by the way)

    [x-post with Doc Tor]
  • Fair enough, Eutychus; the fact that you posted that one in Hell perhaps led me to take it too seriously and not spot the irony or whatever....

    That appeared here in Styx because I dealt with it along with the earlier comment by you, which was I think 'hosting' on that board, about my 'hellish' comment on Gamaliel.... And as hinted in that part, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek in my response to your Hell post anyway.

    Back to work on the more serious Styx post on C*************
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Fair enough, Eutychus; the fact that you posted that one in Hell perhaps led me to take it too seriously and not spot the irony or whatever....
    For the avoidance of doubt, anything I post without host tags is by me as a Shipmate.

    You have no business taking your differences with me as a Shipmate to the Styx; in this case, you should be answering me in Hell.

    You choosing not to go there does not entitle you to pursue the argmuent by other means on other boards.

    I'm really tired of that tactic and especially of abuse of the Styx for that purpose.
    That appeared here in Styx because I dealt with it
    That is no explanation whatsoever. See above.
    along with the earlier comment by you, which was I think 'hosting' on that board, about my 'hellish' comment on Gamaliel.... And as hinted in that part
    That is the first time you have mentioned my host post, which is clearly marked as such (see above). Your suggestion that Gamaliel belonged in Hell was clearly meant as an insult.

    I stand wholly by that host post.

    It's a really stupid idea to dick around with 10C infringements and all the more so when you yourself have just been warned by a host. After heading towards a breach of Commandment 8 followed by Commandment 4, that's in danger of adding Commandment 6 to your rap sheet.
    I was a bit tongue-in-cheek in my response to your Hell post anyway.
    I see. So you are allowed to invoke an "Aspie" [sic] defence to allege your comments come across as less serious than you intend, and simultaneously invoke artful "tongue-in-cheek" intent that has passed over the heads of the hoi polloi when your comments are taken at face value?

    (Don't even try and answer that. Just stop making excuses for not playing by the same rules as everyone else).
  • I'm not buying your reasons for posting in Styx, rather than Hell.

    You've clearly been to Hell to read the thread. Post there if you have any comments to make that arise out of that thread. If you "don't do hell", you don't it anywhere else either.
  • There's an admin function that I haven't tried. Since this thread clearly belongs in Hell, hold tight while we go for a little ride ...

    If there is a question about a hosts ruling, or what constitutes "Crusading" then ask it here in the Styx. If you want to discuss Constantine as a subject then start a thread in Purgatory.

    Alan
    Ship of Fools Admin
  • Hey, that worked! The posts from the misplaced "Bits and Pieces" Styx thread have been merged into this thread, where they belong.

    Alan
    Ship of Fools Admin
  • Pfft.
  • Ok. Read.my.lips Steve. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with you or anyone else discussing Constantine, the baleful effects of state/religious links and so forth, provided it's between consenting adults and in a context which warrants it ie. a thread where we are discussing any of the above.

    The problem is that you insist on introducing it into each and every conversation almost.

    Yes, I shouldn't rise and take the bait. Yes, I should shorten my posts.

    But to suggest that my influence aboard ship is such that Eutychus is swayed by it to the extent that he follows my 'caricature' of your arguments rather than your posts themselves, whilst flattering, is completely wide of the mark.

    Eutychus and everyone else here are perfectly capable of forming their own views on what you post. They don't need my help.

    Everytime I scroll down and see you mentioning Ian Paisley, the US Religious Right, Constantine, Mary Whitehouse or the two or three other pat examples you have up your sleeve after your 70+ years of reading ... I think, 'What the actual fuck?* This guy's got a one-track bloody mind ...'

    * Marvellous catch-phrase used by Kerry in the first series of BBC's 'This Country' mockumentary.

    Trouble is, I don't have the stamina and patience that other Shipmates have who are more sanctified than I am and can scroll past and ignore it.

    It gives me the screaming ad-dabs.

    Someone farts, it's Constantine. The cat's sick, Constantine.

    Give it a bleedin' rest ...
  • Ah, Langton's resorting to the Aspie defence. Fuck off and stop using our shared neurodiversity to excuse your bullshit.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    It might be an idea if you paid attention to what I, repeat I say
    I've stopped doing this a long time ago.

  • LeRoc wrote: »
    It might be an idea if you paid attention to what I, repeat I say
    I've stopped doing this a long time ago.
    Yes. That way madness lies.
  • by Nick Tamen
    The only reason it derails threads is because it’s equally predictable that someone, and often that someone is Gamaliel, will take the bait. It’s as predictable as night follows day.

    Precisely, Nick. It took me quite a while to realise it but what's really been going on here is that I raise issues relating to 'established religion' etc - not just in its "Constantinian" form - when and because the issue is relevant. And instead of getting a rational discussion of that relevance, the thread is hijacked/taken over by Gamaliel and occasionally by others to just rant at me. I try to respond reasonably and the thread is derailed because the Gamaliel et al intervention is not really sincere or relevant anyway but pretty much a deliberate distraction.

    I've been finding this increasingly incomprehensible because at least in theory Gamaliel is NOT a supporter of establishment etc himself. So I don't understand why he does it; it is in the end daft; that's also why in the end I have to regard it as insincere....

    Sorry that since the big C set it off the issue has had such pervasive effects that there isn't much in Christianity that can be discussed without it being relevant - if you think about it seriously you'll realise that for yourself.

    I guess it doesn't help that I don't do small talk much (Aspie FACT, not Aspie 'excuse') and thus disproportionately deal with that one issue; but that doesn't get round the fact that the issue does have that pervasive relevance and also that importance at the moment outside Christianity as well.

    Off on a major holiday from the Ship because I don't need the anxiety of dealing with the stupidity.....





  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I guess it doesn't help that I don't do small talk much (Aspie FACT, not Aspie 'excuse')
    It becomes an excuse when you insist on mentioning it and invoking it in your defence. Everyone has their difficulties; not everybody waves them like a flag in an attempt to justify bad behaviour.
    Off on a major holiday from the Ship because I don't need the anxiety of dealing with the stupidity.....
    How much more convenient than offering an apology for the behaviour you've been called on.
  • PalimpsestPalimpsest Shipmate Posts: 6
    by Nick Tamen
    The only reason it derails threads is because it’s equally predictable that someone, and often that someone is Gamaliel, will take the bait. It’s as predictable as night follows day.

    Precisely, Nick. It took me quite a while to realise it but what's really been going on here is that I raise issues relating to 'established religion' etc - not just in its "Constantinian" form - when and because the issue is relevant. And instead of getting a rational discussion of that relevance, the thread is hijacked/taken over by Gamaliel and occasionally by others to just rant at me. I try to respond reasonably and the thread is derailed because the Gamaliel et al intervention is not really sincere or relevant anyway but pretty much a deliberate distraction.

    I've been finding this increasingly incomprehensible because at least in theory Gamaliel is NOT a supporter of establishment etc himself. So I don't understand why he does it; it is in the end daft; that's also why in the end I have to regard it as insincere....

    Sorry that since the big C set it off the issue has had such pervasive effects that there isn't much in Christianity that can be discussed without it being relevant - if you think about it seriously you'll realise that for yourself.


    Off on a major holiday from the Ship because I don't need the anxiety of dealing with the stupidity.....


    If you find it incomprehensible, you might want to consider that a number of people do not think it's relevant to everything and resent your trying to change the topic to that when they are having a conversation about something else. For those who do not share your belief that nothing can be discussed without it being relevent, you're an annoying disruption. I've watched enough people explain that to you and see you think that the correct response is not stop interrupting other peoples discussions but to write an even longer responses.

    Glad to see you go on holiday. Enjoy your flounce.
  • by Nick Tamen
    The only reason it derails threads is because it’s equally predictable that someone, and often that someone is Gamaliel, will take the bait. It’s as predictable as night follows day.

    Precisely, Nick. It took me quite a while to realise it but what's really been going on here is that I raise issues relating to 'established religion' etc - not just in its "Constantinian" form - when and because the issue is relevant. And instead of getting a rational discussion of that relevance, the thread is hijacked/taken over by Gamaliel and occasionally by others to just rant at me.
    Right, because your constant harping and pontificating on it is often irrelevant and always irritating. Most of us are sick of seeing it come up in every thread you post in, which seems to be inevitable.

    So no, you're not off the hook just because Gamaliel can’t seem to resist taking the bait time after time after time after time. You’re the one who keeps using that bait time after time after time after time, even when it’s been made clear over and over that it hijacks discussions. For my part, once I see reference to the C word in a post from you, you’ve lost me. I stop and move on to the next post.

    By the way, father of an Aspie here—an Aspie who has learned to do small talk quite well.

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    And instead of getting a rational discussion of that relevance, the thread is hijacked/taken over by Gamaliel and occasionally by others to just rant at me.

    It occurs to me that this means that Gamaliel likes you better than the rest of us do. Because maybe he's the only one who cares enough to try to save you from your Quixotic crusade against imaginary windmills. And perhaps the rest of us just think you're a fucking moronic kook.
  • TortufTortuf Shipmate
    Sometimes trying over and over to prove you are right has unhappy consequences. I have experienced this about myself more than once. I used to believe that - if I just explained well enough - my opponent would understand and then agree with me.

    This was almost always delusional thinking on my part. It never worked except in very limited circumstances. Most of the time it just made me unhappy and pissed off people who read all the same arguments over and over.

    I learned two important things from my unhappy experiences :
    Post what I think. Say it well and leave it be.
    I don't have to be right. In fact, I cannot, nor must I, understand everything.

    This post is not aimed at any one shippy.
  • Gosh.

    FWIW, yes, I do care and would happily engage with Steve on all manner of topics, including the C one if he stopped banging on and on about it and introducing it to discussions where its relevance is questionable at best.

    I don't know much about Asperger's but I would have thought that it was evident that anyone who bangs on and on and on about any subject - whether it be football, cricket, barometers, the Kardashians or whatever else is going to end up irritating the heck out of people ...

    Shoot, I've done it myself. I irritated the living shit out of plenty of ship-mates by banging on and on about the weaknesses of charismatic spirituality as I emerged from that and began broadening out from it.

    I try not to do that so much these days, although I concede that my bait-taking at the Constantinian canards must have become equally annoying.

    It's not insincerity on my part, Steve Langton, more a case of, 'Oh no, not bloody Constantine AGAIN!!!'
  • Just lie back and think of Constantine.
This discussion has been closed.