I'm fed up with Harvest Festival being a miserable service in the C of E

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  • If I bob a tin of soup into the Foodbank collection am I making any difference at all or simply salving my own conscience?
    Making a bloody big difference to a starving person. We can each only do what we can.

  • A point I made the other week while going through the church notices and used the opportunity to offer a little sermon-ette following up on some of my recent sermons (the guest preacher that week didn't complain either). One of the local foodbanks had run out of food during the week and issued an appeal for supplies (which was covered in the local paper, and resulted in a significant number of donations). When the foodbanks are than low on food stuffs then everything you give will make the difference between someone in need getting help or not. Our small donations have a big impact on someone in need, the difference between having food to give their families or going to bed hungry.
  • Then we sang "We plough the fields .." Even though the nearest most of us get is driving past the green fields of the local golf club :wink:
    Some people might think it a good idea to plough up the Golf Club's fields - especially if it's owned by You-Know-Who! [Devil]

    Having seen a You Know Who Owned Golf Club in the Carolinas, it might have been an improvement! :wink:
  • Lola wrote: »
    Piglet wrote: »
    ... seeing them as an irrelevance in our modern urbanised society ...
    Even urban areas have their harvests: in the 70s when D. was organist at St. Leonard's in Colchester, which is near an engine factory, he suggested an "industrial harvest festival" and they brought in diesel engines and even model steam locomotives.

    When visiting my parents recently I saw a flyer had been delivered or they had picked one up maybe saying one of the local churches was having a Harvest of Tools (Tools with a Mission being a reasonably closely based charity) with a list of the items they can take/refurbish from hammers and planes to sewing machines (treadle or electric). I thought this was rather wonderful.

    My church does a (new) toy and gift service at the start of December. Everything goes to onto the local SureStart to pass on to families who need it. (Yes, we still have one!) We also ask for donations to do Christmas hampers for users of the food bank and those who are okay for most of the year but find Christmas a bit of a struggle financially.
  • Climacus wrote: »
    If I bob a tin of soup into the Foodbank collection am I making any difference at all or simply salving my own conscience?
    Making a bloody big difference to a starving person. We can each only do what we can.

    Sure. But one could argue that instead of going on a short city break to an expensive destination (Copenhagen) with my wife (who has cancer), I'd have been better donating the money to cancer research instead.

    Rather than preparing a roast dinner for us all on Sunday, we ought to have bread and soup as my mother-in-law with Alzheimer's probably wouldn't mind ...

    I dunno. There seem to me to be far more important issues at stake in all of this as to whether churches have 'smug' Harvest Festival services or not.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I am fascinated by this thread. I am on a very low income, and it has never occurred to me that thanking God is wrong or insensitive, unless there is the implication that God chooses to provide more for those he loves, and less for those he doesn't, rather than an acknowledgement that this stuff is largely about chance. When Jesus fed the five thousand, he thanked God for his provision, according to the gospel accounts (if I am remembering rightly). He also acknowledged that there will always be poor people, and that the widow who gave her two coins had given more than anyone, because that was all she had. Thanking God doesn't seem to me to be mutually exclusive from being aware of poverty and helping others when we can. This might sound twee, but I genuinely find thanking God, just being thankful in general, can make struggles easier, and show me a bigger perspective.

    And Gamma, for the sake of argument, not saying what you should have done, but you could have potentially had a much cheaper holiday that is still enjoyable, and a much cheaper meal that was still nice. Not necessarily bread and soup (although bread and soup can be lovely). It can be possible to live well on much less. People often think they need way more than they do, because they become used to it. And then there are double standards, because they will look at those living on much less and say, 'Ah, but they don't need what I need.' As if they were somehow more important, needing better, bigger, more expensive things than those of a lower social status than themselves. (Not talking about you, Gamma - but going with the questions you brought up, because I think they are important questions to consider in general.)
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    If I bob a tin of soup into the Foodbank collection am I making any difference at all or simply salving my own conscience?
    Making a bloody big difference to a starving person. We can each only do what we can.

    Sure. But one could argue that instead of going on a short city break to an expensive destination (Copenhagen) with my wife (who has cancer), I'd have been better donating the money to cancer research instead.

    Rather than preparing a roast dinner for us all on Sunday, we ought to have bread and soup as my mother-in-law with Alzheimer's probably wouldn't mind ...

    I dunno. There seem to me to be far more important issues at stake in all of this as to whether churches have 'smug' Harvest Festival services or not.

    I think you are playing the guilt game there.

    There is nothing wrong with holidays and roast dinners. We all need our relaxation and would be no use to others if we burnt ourselves out.

    My son is very frugal but they still have breaks and holidays. I admire him because they have the cheapest holidays to amazing destinations. (Eg they cycled to Vienna and camped when they got there). But I can’t say I want to do the same!

  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    Getting back to the subject of American Thanksgiving. It is primarily a family holiday, at least as I have experienced it. When I was a child, people drove more than a hundred miles to our house. It was the only time of year when we all saw each other. I loved looking down the long table and seeing what I was part of.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    edited October 2018
    Boogie wrote: »
    @Baptist Trainfan said -
    Perhaps one issue (in the prosperous West) is that, in the Olden Days, people were well aware of the trials and tragedies of life as these affected them on a daily basis. The thankfulness to have got through another year with a good harvest was therefore tangible.

    The trials and tragedies of life are not only about lack of resources. Two of our very affluent members are currently going through terrible times, which no money will alleviate.

    In my observations, although all people, rich and poor, go through awful trials and tragedies in life, and of course all die sooner or later, and money can't fix it, it is generally harder for those who are going through these things in poverty. If for no other reason than that poverty is another burden on them which they still have to deal with and struggle with. Money does tend to be a privilege people easily take for granted - like, say, being white - if they've never experienced the other side.

  • On the holiday thing ... until relatively recently we always had holidays on the cheap. My wife's always been very 'careful'. Cancer has altered her perspective.

    I doubt if we'll fly anywhere again, though. She doesn't like flying at the best of times and although given the all-clear to fly by the doctors - they have advised against it hitherto - it did 'get' to her and she's been pretty tired ever since. Mind you, the same thing happened when we went abroad by Eurostar earlier in the year. Two trips abroad and a week in Kent during the summer is unprecedented for us. We never used to spend a great deal on holidays, dining out etc.

    It's not that she has an extensive bucket-list but I don't think she wants to live on bread and cheese for however long she has before the chemo tablets begin to lose effect.

    Generally though, we tend to potter around doing inexpensive things.
  • The two trips abroad weren't in the summer ... one was in February and one was last week.
  • The two trips abroad weren't in the summer ... one was in February and one was last week.

    I'm very sorry you thought I was saying you were a sicko, that was an insensitive thing for me to say.

    I don't think you are a sicko, I think you are heroically living through a very chaotic, heat-breaking situation.

  • Heck ... I went on a short holiday last week. Millions of people around the world can't afford to do that. Does that make me a sicko?

    If it was a canal boating holiday, then yes.

  • LOL!

    St. Theresa of Calcutta said:

    'We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop.'

    And she had other wise words to say about simply doing what we are able to do.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Gamma, I thought you were opening up the question as a general thing, rather than genuinely expecting comment/judgement on your own personal situation. I was talking generally. It’s impossible to judge individual situations based on a couple of facts. It’s like people who say someone can’t be really poor because they have a smart phone, when for all they know, the smart phone could have been a gift, could be a disability aid, all sorts. People make their own decisions based on all sorts of factors. But if you meant it as a general question about people’s life choices and purchases in general, what I said does still stand.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I do find, though, if a person is generally very frugal, it can feel weird and wrong when you do occasionally splash out, even if you can logically justify it. Maybe that’s why you were asking, for reassurance? I thought it was a broader topic you wanted to explore in the light of the bigger topic of gratitude and poverty and riches, which was probably my misunderstanding.
  • No, you were right to broaden it out and I was thinking more generally - and yes, your point was well made.

    Sorry about bringing it back to my personal situation, but it is rather on my mind at the moment.

    I can talk about other things and the more general aspects. So don't worry about me on that account.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    That's understandable, Gamma, and I continue to keep you and your wife in my prayers. I hope your holiday was lovely.
  • All this talk about how much one should give etc. reminds me irresistibly of Tony Hancock's classic The Blood Donor.

    I can't provide a link, I'm afraid, as only Part 1 (which is not quite the funniest half!) seems to be available online, but those of us Of A Certain Age will recall Hancock's scandalised expression, and the line 'But that's a whole armful!!'.
  • Moo wrote: »
    Getting back to the subject of American Thanksgiving. It is primarily a family holiday, at least as I have experienced it. When I was a child, people drove more than a hundred miles to our house. It was the only time of year when we all saw each other. I loved looking down the long table and seeing what I was part of.
    Yes. That’s what I was trying to get at when I said the meal is the defining event of Thanksgiving. It’s a family (or family/friends) celebration. Church services are pretty much on the periphery, even among church people.

    Would that Christmas parades and sales were on the periphery as well.

  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    Is it relevant that US Thanksgiving church services, if held at all, would be on the Thursday that is the actual holiday...and probably not focus on harvest which will be well over before the end of NOvember. Then the big family dinner likely follows later that day. Whereas in Canada, the celebrating, at least in Anglican churches, focuses on harvest and takes place on the Sunday, leaving the Monday that is actually "Thanksgiving Day" free for other activities.
    My impression is that if there is a big dinner, it is most likely to be on the Sunday. My memory of the CofE, borne out by this thread, is that whatever Sunday you choose to do harvest thanksgiving is largely up to the parish, and that no big meal or family gathering is involved. My guess would be that only the churches note harvest thanksgiving -- for those who don't go to church, there is no secular point on which to focus.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    All this talk about how much one should give etc. reminds me irresistibly of Tony Hancock's classic The Blood Donor.

    I can't provide a link, I'm afraid, as only Part 1 (which is not quite the funniest half!) seems to be available online, but those of us Of A Certain Age will recall Hancock's scandalised expression, and the line 'But that's a whole armful!!'.

    Is this the full episode? May watch it tonight.

    ---


    Thanks for all those sharing their celebrations; very interesting to read of the variety.
  • Thanks, Climacus - yes, that is the full episode!
    :lol:
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Our lunch is importamnt because we welcome all the new students.
  • Leo wrote: »
    Our lunch is importamnt because we welcome all the new students.

    Good idea - I'll bear it in mind to suggest to our new priest for next year!

  • AndrasAndras Shipmate
    Leo wrote: »
    Our lunch is importamnt because we welcome all the new students.

    Good idea - I'll bear it in mind to suggest to our new priest for next year!

    We did this at a church I used to attend; believe me, it works.

    And - no secret this! - all students love cake.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    It seems to me (and perhaps an American shippie will put me right if I've got it wrong) that there's a difference between what God's traditionally being thanked for at American Thanksgiving (the safe arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers?) and at Canadian Thanksgiving/British Harvest Festival (the gathering-in of the year's literal harvest).

    Is it usual for church services around American Thanksgiving to have a thanksgiving theme, and do you have a separate Harvest Festival service as well?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    Piglet wrote: »
    It seems to me (and perhaps an American shippie will put me right if I've got it wrong) that there's a difference between what God's traditionally being thanked for at American Thanksgiving (the safe arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers?) . . . .
    Not really, at least in my experience. The supposed “first Thanksgiving”—the pilgrims, with the friendship of the Native Americans, getting safely through the first winter and to the harvest—is the foundational myth of Thanksgiving (emphasis on “myth”). So pilgrim, and to a lesser extent Native American, decorations will abound at Thanksgiving.

    But, again in my experience, God is being thanked for the harvest/plenty, for family and friends, and for anything else for which people are grateful. I think it’s fairly common at Thanksgiving dinners to give everyone at the table a chance to express what they are thankful for, particularly over the previous year.

    It is at heart a harvest festival. But at least in some parts of the US, the harvest can extend later in the year than it might in more northern climes, such as Canada and the UK.

    As for services, and once more in my experience, the service the Sunday before Thanksgiving might have some harvest/Thanksgiving themes, at least in some churches. But that is often Christ the King, while the Sunday after is often 1st Advent. (If not 1st Advent, then the Sunday after is Christ the King.). In churches that mark those days, they will trump a Thanksgiving theme. But as noted, Thanksgiving is primarily a family celebration, not a church celebration.

  • When I lived in West Africa, we held our Harvest Thanksgiving services on the Sunday after Christmas - appropriate for the agricultural year.

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