What's the matter with kids today? Chapter 1: Table Manners

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  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    fineline wrote: »
    [It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's handy to be told in a friendly way which utensil to use for which course. Though most regular restaurants that have the table prelaid have the convention that a spoon at the top is for dessert and a spoon at the side by the knife is for soup, so that tends to be common knowledge. It's when there are several forks and spoons that it gets more complicated.
    A properly laid table enables one to work from the outside in -- i.e., using the outermost utensils for the first course. Dessert utensils are brought to the table with dessert -- never laid on the table beforehand.
  • Middle aged people with the eyeglasses down their noses peering up at me - well I just stop talking to them and if continues, walk away.

    Oh. I need to know - is that rude? I've not had to wear reading glasses so long, and often find myself looking over them when someone talks to me who is standing a little further from me and is out of focus whilst looking through them. (I have been using them because whatever I am doing is out of focus whilst not looking through them). It's a bit of a pain, really, though I'd be really useless without them.
  • fineline wrote: »
    [It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's handy to be told in a friendly way which utensil to use for which course. Though most regular restaurants that have the table prelaid have the convention that a spoon at the top is for dessert and a spoon at the side by the knife is for soup, so that tends to be common knowledge. It's when there are several forks and spoons that it gets more complicated.
    A properly laid table enables one to work from the outside in -- i.e., using the outermost utensils for the first course. Dessert utensils are brought to the table with dessert -- never laid on the table beforehand.
    Which is all culturally specific and arbitrary, something you would only know by being told (and, ignorance is not the same as bad manners), and not of any great importance. If you use the wrong knife the worst that happens is you use a slightly different size knife from everyone else for the next course, or you may find the staff bring an extra knife to replace the one you accidentally used ... hardly the end of civilisation.

    I admit to not eating at really fancy places very often - but in the UK when I have I'm pretty sure the dessert utensils are laid out in advance, the only cutlery brought in with the meal would be anything special for that dish (a soup spoon for those having soup, a sharp knife if someone is having a steak etc). So, your rules for selecting the right utensil could in other places not work where there are different cultural conventions.
  • Middle aged people with the eyeglasses down their noses peering up at me - well I just stop talking to them and if continues, walk away.

    Oh. I need to know - is that rude? I've not had to wear reading glasses so long, and often find myself looking over them when someone talks to me who is standing a little further from me and is out of focus whilst looking through them. (I have been using them because whatever I am doing is out of focus whilst not looking through them). It's a bit of a pain, really, though I'd be really useless without them.
    I got reading glasses a couple of years ago, and find myself needing to wear them far more now than then. Like you, if I've been reading something or using my computer and someone comes up to talk to me if I look up at them they're out of focus. I either need to remove my glasses or look over the top to see people properly. The worst is reading at church, trying to see the text in front of me while at the same time looking at the congregation. Preaching isn't so bad, I use a tablet with the sermon in very large font so I can follow it without glasses.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    In a thread on etiquette, is it impolite to ask if the congregation can follow it at all?
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I do, if somewhat colourfully, differentiate between the manners which are bullshit and the ones that help us get along as a society.

    Or to put it another way, the rules you happen to agree with are Right and Proper, but those you don’t agree with are Evil Classist Oppression.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    [In the UK . . . I'm pretty sure the dessert utensils are laid out in advance, the only cutlery brought in with the meal would be anything special for that dish (a soup spoon for those having soup, a sharp knife if someone is having a steak etc).
    As Miss Manners says, the practices followed in a restaurant are hardly touchstones of propriety.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Middle aged people with the eyeglasses down their noses peering up at me - well I just stop talking to them and if continues, walk away.

    Oh. I need to know - is that rude? I've not had to wear reading glasses so long, and often find myself looking over them when someone talks to me.
    The days of a gentleman allowing his monacle to fall out of his eye socket are long gone, I fear.
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    [In the UK . . . I'm pretty sure the dessert utensils are laid out in advance, the only cutlery brought in with the meal would be anything special for that dish (a soup spoon for those having soup, a sharp knife if someone is having a steak etc).
    As Miss Manners says, the practices followed in a restaurant are hardly touchstones of propriety.

    What's done in the restaurant developed from what was done in the homes of the people the restaurant wanted to serve. When eating in private homes in the UK over 50 years, I've always encountered fork and spoon for the sweet course placed above the plate before the meal begins. You may, of course, have more experience than I in eating in the UK.

    And, for what its worth, when my children were being taught how to set a table in whatever they now call home economics in school, that's what they were taught -- in Canada 35-30 years ago. (They knew this anyway, because that's how we set the table at home.) The reference, I think, was to one of the US etiquette gurus of the distant past.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    After doing a little research, Miss Amanda will own as to how there are differences of opinion on the matter of dessert fork, spoon and knife. To lay them crosswise above the setting is not per se incorrect.

    However, there does seem to be another rule, namely that the table is never set with more than three of each piece of silverware. Thus, if there are three forks on the table, say, for the salad, fish course, and main course, it would be wrong to put a fourth fork out for the cake until everything has been cleared away and cake is served.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I do, if somewhat colourfully, differentiate between the manners which are bullshit and the ones that help us get along as a society.

    Or to put it another way, the rules you happen to agree with are Right and Proper, but those you don’t agree with are Evil Classist Oppression.
    Oh fuck right off. Are you that stupid as to not understand the difference between respecting other people and getting offended because someone uses the wrong knife, white after whatever fucking day or the wrong glass for one’s wine?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    However, there does seem to be another rule, namely that the table is never set with more than three of each piece of silverware. Thus, if there are three forks on the table, say, for the salad, fish course, and main course, it would be wrong to put a fourth fork out for the cake until everything has been cleared away and cake is served.

    Why?!? And who gets to decide these things?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Ruth wrote: »
    However, there does seem to be another rule, namely that the table is never set with more than three of each piece of silverware. Thus, if there are three forks on the table, say, for the salad, fish course, and main course, it would be wrong to put a fourth fork out for the cake until everything has been cleared away and cake is served.

    Why?!? And who gets to decide these things?

    The Forking Dictator, that's forking who.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Yeah, I miss Sine Nomine.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is amazing that you can sti down for a meal in a restaurant, with that stick so firmly implanted...

    Well, bless your little heart.

    Manners are there for a reason: they're the lubricant that keeps (rational) people from attacking one another. I don't care about elbows on tables; chewing with an open mouth is quite another issue, because it's (almost - you're probably fine with it) universally regarded as revolting. It's all about helping us get along with others.

    Do watch out for karma, dear.



  • When setting the table I take great delight in placing the cutlery wherever my fancy takes me. I have not yet arranged them in the centrepiece, but might try to get away with that this Christmas.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I take great delight in placing the cutlery wherever my fancy takes me.
    There are a number of people for whom I would set a place with the knives pointing toward where their throats would be when they've sat down.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is amazing that you can sti down for a meal in a restaurant, with that stick so firmly implanted...

    Well, bless your little heart.

    Manners are there for a reason: they're the lubricant that keeps (rational) people from attacking one another. I don't care about elbows on tables; chewing with an open mouth is quite another issue, because it's (almost - you're probably fine with it) universally regarded as revolting. It's all about helping us get along with others.

    Do watch out for karma, dear.
    Read for comprehension. Oh, wait...

  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I fear Miss Amanda is displaying her parochialism. Table settings very between cultures.

    In the UK I have always seen the dessert cutlery set from the beginning. In France OTOH for formal dining you are brought the appropriate cutlery with each course (i.e. only one set on the table at any one time). Which goes to prove how arbitrary these things are.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    Particularly so in a restaurant where the necessary cutlery may differ between diners at the same table, depending upon what they have ordered.

    I would not call Miss Amanda parochial - regal to her toes is more accurate.
  • Middle aged people with the eyeglasses down their noses peering up at me - well I just stop talking to them and if continues, walk away.

    Oh. I need to know - is that rude? I've not had to wear reading glasses so long, and often find myself looking over them when someone talks to me who is standing a little further from me and is out of focus whilst looking through them. (I have been using them because whatever I am doing is out of focus whilst not looking through them). It's a bit of a pain, really, though I'd be really useless without them.

    It's ok if you have to do it but appears condescending and patronising if you "use" the glasses as part of making your point. (The same thing is true for people who talk to you and put their head on non head waiting for an answer …. I really, really want to ask them what happened to their neck. It is the particular province of the caring or teaching profession).
  • On the other hand, out of the mouths....

    Quoth my (then) four year old nephew to his seventy something year old grandfather,
    "Grandpa, you shouldn't have your elbow on the tables at mealtimes."

    Grandpa apparently looked very unhappy at being told this by a child. The cheek of it.

    His mother said that she was torn between wanting the floor to open & swallow her up, or laughing out loud, so opted for looking directly at my father and saying, " It's what you taught us when we were young..."

    And admitted to being rather proud that what they'd tried to teach him had actually gone in. And that he expected that if he had to abide by the rule, so should everybody else.
  • The usual rules are: "the only joints on the table are for carving" followed up by "you can only put your elbows on the table if you're an aunt or over 21", which is what the adults in my life said when they were caught out on the supposedly inviolable first rule by one of us.
  • The days of a gentleman allowing his monacle to fall out of his eye socket are long gone, I fear.
    My father was a doctor in private practice, the sort which has a "consulting room" rather than a "surgery". He used to wear a monocle, partly due to vanity (he didn't want to admit to needing glasses), and partly to impart a sense of due gravitas.

  • The worst is reading at church, trying to see the text in front of me while at the same time looking at the congregation.

    The worst for me is trying to ride down the road on a motorbike in the rain, dark and wind, and stopping to try to read a map! It's almost enough to make me want to explore satnav, but only almost.

    Thanks for your advice, friends. I can see how peering over at people might look a bit school-master-ish, I'll have to watch it. I often balance them on my head, which (if they were sunglasses) would seem to go with white trousers, a pastel jacket with sleeves pushed up and one of those French stripey T-shirts. It feels very odd, but not as odd as wearing them a-la Larry Grayson on a string.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    There is one type of 'elbows on the table' which is very unattractive. The person leans forward with his elbows and forearms beside his plate, as if he were afraid someone might try to snatch it away. On the rare occasions I have seen this, I have looked away and refrained from looking that way again.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Maybe they really are afraid of their plate getting snatched away. For *some* people, I think there definitely is a link between “bad table manners” and food insecurity.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Oh fuck right off. Are you that stupid as to not understand the difference between respecting other people and getting offended because someone uses the wrong knife, white after whatever fucking day or the wrong glass for one’s wine?

    Table manners are part of respecting other people. They're saying you take the other people with whom you are sharing a meal seriously enough to behave properly during said meal.

    Granted, using the wrong fork is a pretty insignificant breach of proper behaviour that you'd have to be a total tit to judge someone for. Far less serious than, say, belching loudly or staying glued to your iPhone the whole time (though maybe you don't think either of those things are rude either?). But then the OP wasn't about using the wrong fork was it - that's just a caricature you've introduced in order to deny that good table manners is a thing worth bothering about at all.
  • For *some* people, I think there definitely is a link between “bad table manners” and food insecurity.

    I would suggest that the vast, vast majority of teenagers in an American restaurant do not fall into that category.
  • Belching is good manners, especially when invited to eat in someone's home. It shows appreciation for the effort involved in preparing the meal and indicates that one is satisfied. If you do not belch in a restaurant it is like leaving a one star review on the internet without explaining why.
  • What's disrespectful about an elbow on the table? And who decided that it was disrespectful?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I think the rudeness thing depends upon whether there is a utensil at the end of the arm that’s resting on the table. An elbow on the table can be of great assistance if one wishes to shovel one’s food down post haste while staring into the plate and ignoring one’s table-fellows.

    Also see the rule I was taught about “the fork comes to the mouth, not the mouth to the fork”.
  • Mr Smiff wrote: »
    What's disrespectful about an elbow on the table? And who decided that it was disrespectful?

    Because your arms get in the way. How can the servers put your food and drink (and cutlery, in France) on the table if your elbow is resting on the table so that your head is over the table?
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Oh fuck right off. Are you that stupid as to not understand the difference between respecting other people and getting offended because someone uses the wrong knife, white after whatever fucking day or the wrong glass for one’s wine?

    Table manners are part of respecting other people. They're saying you take the other people with whom you are sharing a meal seriously enough to behave properly during said meal.
    Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. One should examine what purpose a behaviour serves before deeming it "proper" and adjudicating whether it is about respect.
    Granted, using the wrong fork is a pretty insignificant breach of proper behaviour that you'd have to be a total tit to judge someone for.
    Which is essentially what the OP does.
    Far less serious than, say, belching loudly
    I don't care for belching much more than I do open-mouthed eating, but it is not an objective wrong.
    or staying glued to your iPhone the whole time
    This is mostly rude. I personally hate it and think it is rude because one it not engaging with one's companions. Though, I said mostly. And that is because, as much as I deplore it, it is part of social interaction these days. Also, though you may have trouble remembering that far back, teens spend loads of time hanging out and not talking to each other. So what is the difference if they look at a mobile?
    But then the OP wasn't about using the wrong fork was it - that's just a caricature you've introduced in order to deny that good table manners is a thing worth bothering about at all.
    The OP's knickers had one potentially justified twist. And that is the foot on the chair, but I'd guess the OP's panties were bunched for the wrong reason on that one as well.

    I completely agree that one should attempt good manners at the table, especially someone else's.
    What I disagree on is what those manners are and which are arbitrary bullshit and which are truly about respect.
    MtM, as you rarely read for nuance or comprehension, you can stop here.

    Manners are a complicated thing. If I am in someone's home, I do the best I can to follow their concept of manners, even if I do not respect that concept. As a host, I do my best to accommodate my guests. I think both behaviours are proper, but one should be able spot the potential conflict here. The real problem is placing one's expectations onto other people. Life is a negotiation, understand this brings more peace than harrumphing at the decline in western civilisation because a child didn't put a napkin in her lap.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Mr Smiff wrote: »
    What's disrespectful about an elbow on the table? And who decided that it was disrespectful?

    Because your arms get in the way. How can the servers put your food and drink (and cutlery, in France) on the table if your elbow is resting on the table so that your head is over the table?
    I call bullshit. Because the manners brigade also frown on this at home with self-service. If one differentiates by circumstance, then that explanation would hold. But I don't get the impression that those arguing for that sort of etiquette could unbend themselves to this degree.
  • I always figure that if I'm explaining planetary motion or the Battle of Kursk using the condiments, then a polite cough from one of my fellow diners (or the wait staff themselves) will see the table clear for delivery of food in a trice.

    People do actually talk to each other. It's not difficult.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Present evidence to the contrary excepted, of course.
  • A couple of weeks ago we went with daughter, son in law and grandchildren aged 10 and 13 to a good Chinese restaurant.
    The food was excellent and we all had a great time.
    We all chatted to each other, nobody was too loud, there were no mobile phones in sight, nobody made an exhibition of themselves.
    Whether we followed the correct etiquette for eating Chinese food, I know not, but as far as I am concerned, nobody showed any bad manners.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    edited October 2018
    Puzzler, you are welcome to dine at my table any time. The young lady who is the subject of my OP is not.

    And I love Chinese food, especially when it is ordered and consumed the "right" way.

    {Miss Amanda girds her loins in anticipation of the opprobrium that remark will engender, over and above that which she has already endured upthread.]
  • The solution to all such problems is Sandy Toksvig.
  • The solution to all such problems is Sandy Toksvig.
    I adore her.
    This quote from the Amazon synopsis hit the nail on the head and is what a few here are missing:
    she highlights decency rather than convention
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    I think the rudeness thing depends upon whether there is a utensil at the end of the arm that’s resting on the table. An elbow on the table can be of great assistance if one wishes to shovel one’s food down post haste while staring into the plate and ignoring one’s table-fellows.

    Also see the rule I was taught about “the fork comes to the mouth, not the mouth to the fork”.

    Oh! Completely inappropriate and messy when using chopsticks. Sit in any restaurant predominantly patronised by Vietnamese Australians and you will see your error. If I had children I would teach them with this aide: Bring your bowl to your chin and shovel it in! I do it with soup these days in fancy restaurants while looking around, belligerent.

    Incidentally, if you complain that your noodles are burned and the waiter says, 'that's how we cook it in Vietnam EAT IT OR GET OUT!' they are lying. I checked. Eat it anyway. We owe them that.
  • Double posting is the right of every Australian as we must endure people saying interesting things while we sleep.

    My wife accesses her mobile phone quite often at restaurants to check whether I am lying to her again. It is quite inappropriate and very bad manners to fact check your dining companion.

  • Actually, the "raise and shovel" method is considered bad manners in Vietnam though people do it at home.
  • Actually, the "raise and shovel" method is considered bad manners in Vietnam though people do it at home.

    :open_mouth:
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    My experience with the Vietnamese in Sydney was as Simon's... Perhaps all the good mannered ones are with Lamb Chopped. :wink:

    My favourite memory of a lovely Vietnamese place in Cabramatta was the owner not giving a shit and considering it an imposition that you actually showed up to his establishment. As soon as there was a hint you were finishing, him or one of his henchman would hover, then take your plates or bowls and start wiping down the table and indicate in no uncertain terms you were to get out. Happy days.
  • yeah. I love Vietnamese people. I was taking a client to a Buddhist temple some years ago. There was none of the characteristic growling there. They were very welcoming and hospitable, and great cooks too.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Puzzler wrote: »
    Whether we followed the correct etiquette for eating Chinese food, I know not, but as far as I am concerned, nobody showed any bad manners.

    From my observation in Hong Kong that would include spitting the bones on the table and generally leaving a trail of destuction. At the end the waitress comes, picks up the corners of the tablecloth and takes it away.
  • Moo wrote: »
    There is one type of 'elbows on the table' which is very unattractive. The person leans forward with his elbows and forearms beside his plate, as if he were afraid someone might try to snatch it away. On the rare occasions I have seen this, I have looked away and refrained from looking that way again.

    This used to be our preferred position when saying grace at home, because otherwise we would open our eyes to a depleted plate and a cat making a hasty exit.

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