Saudi Arabia is disgusting

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Comments

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    {Thinking aloud.}

    I've been wondering: how widely is diplomatic immunity observed, officially or not? I generally think of it as a universal rule. But maybe that depends on country, people, and circumstances?

    If it weren't for the possible consequences, I think it would be great for Turkey to send the Saudi ambassador packing re the journalist's death. If the embassy is considered Saudi soil, then Turkey can't invade and investigate. But expelling the ambassador would at least express severe displeasure. If the names of those involved in the murder and possible torture are known, they should be sent packing, too, and banned from Turkey for life.

    Except...the journalist's remains were reportedly given to a Turk. If they went off the embassy property to do that, might that make those Saudis at least accomplices after the fact? If their diplomatic immunity were revoked by the Saudi ambassador, could they be arrested?

    ETA: AIUI, Islam has some very strict rules about treatment of the dead. Maybe these guys violated them? If Turkish secular law reflects that, or Islamic courts do, might be another possible angle.
  • The Vienna Convention is inviolable. An embassy is sovereign territory, and diplomats untouchable.

    What we do to them is what they will do to us.

    Even when the Dutch police intercepted a GRU spying team mid-hack outside WADA headquarters, all they could do was escort them back to the airport.

    However, outside of that is a grey area. Any Turkish national involved is fair game, as far as the Turks want to play it.
  • Erdogan says it was planned days in advance.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45949742
  • Make them fight their own wars, even if they use stte-of-the-art weapons. They have never had to fight a war without external support and it would be instructive and educational to see what would happen.
  • Erdogan, naturally, is no angel himself. He too is a cold-blooded killer who will do and has done anything to stay in power. He is the pot calling the kettle black.
  • edited October 2018
    It isn't good to help Saudi transition. So long as they're affluent and the people controlled by content men, no significant change will occur. They need to feel upset and to want regime change.

    The real deal is that the USA has chosen Saudi against Iran. Which they really effed up when they supported the Shah. Who, though secular, was also terrible. So some additional crying, weeping and gnashing of the toothless. No teeth for you!

    But in the world of well-loved real politik, where individual lives don't matter and global dominance does, we, through our governments, are only concerned about making money. It is best that when a country wants to massacre its citizens that they do it with weapons we profitted from. Or if they want to destroy another insignificant country. Hence the concern for money-arms deals instantly raised by trumpy and our Canadian gov't. The leading sellers of arms to Saudi are USA, UK and France, in that order. Perhaps a terror attack on a arms-for-Saudi factory is coming? I'm sure the intelligence communities have assessed the risks.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    So what do you propose be done Doc Tor, to protest the murder of this man?

    EU travel ban on Saudi government officials.
    Freezing Saudi assets.
    Arms sale ban.
    Proscribing Wahhabist forms of Islam.
    Withdrawal from all bilateral agreements with Saudi Arabia.
    Revocation of visas for visiting Saudis.

    Basically, treat them like the pariah state they are.

    And to be absolutely clear, as vile as Khashoggi's murder is, I would already have put these measures in place decades ago.

    If only we had acted against the Kingdom decades ago. There was always a reason not to I suppose.

    One of the things this murder calls to mind is the scene in Fargo where a body is put through a woodchipper. To me, the woodchipper seemed too small to do the job properly, as my woodchipper arks up at the smallest wooden branch being put through it. Obviously, there are really big ones that could do the job, but the cleaning would be hell. You'd have to ask a butcher for advice I suppose, but the machines are designed differently. When I ask for a lamb's neck to be cut up they use a kind of vertical electric knife with two serrated blades running up and down.

    Kashoggi's murder is a terrible crime, and terrible crimes have been committed before by countries seeking to protect their perceived interests. Journalists are murdered on a regular basis in all sorts of horrific ways. What gets me is the daily abuse of humanity carried out by Saudi Arabia in Yemen, and I appreciate that you see the irony too. I won't broaden it out to Syria. There is no comparison between the brutal murder of a man and the carpet bombing of cities in Yemen.

    I reckon that your set of proposals instituted with immediate effect is likely to do greater harm to us than to Saudi Arabia, given the existence of a viable alternative market in China. I think Saudi Arabia is too tied in to Western economies to be able to be effectively punished at the moment.

    I would like to see a kind of staged process. We (the west) do need to get out of the business of supplying arms to the Saudis. They will get them from China and Russia, but I think that the cost to us is manageable. We absolutely need to end any co-operation with the Saudis over Yemen. I have heard that there is targeting assistance provided to the Saudis under the cover of saying we are trying to help them avoid civilian targets. That must stop. The Saudis are not avoiding civilian targets.

    We need to become less reliant on Saudi oil. In the past, that was about sourcing oil ourselves. Now it is about renewables. That strikes me as a realistic option now.

    Once we are no longer so reliant on petrol, we institute your program, except that we don't freeze Saudi assets, we take them. That will involve dealing with our own tall poppies, as we call them in Australia. We will probably need to bribe the greedy bastards by promising a distribution of Saudi shares on a proportional basis to existing shareholders. That should keep them happy.

    I don't agree that we should ban their version of Islam though. Just get all their adherents to wear ankle bracelets through other means.

    A standard butchers mincer would do the job provided you dismember things first. It'll do a pig carcass which is as similar to a human one of the same size and weight as makes no difference
  • If we're going to ban Wahabism, may we also ban various forms of Christianity? I'm also not fond of Hindu fundamentalists. Those too please.
  • Pig carcass huh? Somebody is missing Adam and Jamie from the Mythbusters already? :)
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Erdogan, naturally, is no angel himself. He too is a cold-blooded killer who will do and has done anything to stay in power. He is the pot calling the kettle black.
    That's part of what makes this atrocity so fascinating: Erdogan is about as bad as MBS ("Mr. Bone Saw").

  • If we're going to ban Wahabism, may we also ban various forms of Christianity? I'm also not fond of Hindu fundamentalists. Those too please.

    I think you mean Salafism. The W. word is pejorative.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    It isn't good to help Saudi transition. So long as they're affluent and the people controlled by content men, no significant change will occur. They need to feel upset and to want regime change.

    The real deal is that the USA has chosen Saudi against Iran. Which they really effed up when they supported the Shah. Who, though secular, was also terrible. So some additional crying, weeping and gnashing of the toothless. No teeth for you!

    But in the world of well-loved real politik, where individual lives don't matter and global dominance does, we, through our governments, are only concerned about making money. It is best that when a country wants to massacre its citizens that they do it with weapons we profitted from. Or if they want to destroy another insignificant country. Hence the concern for money-arms deals instantly raised by trumpy and our Canadian gov't. The leading sellers of arms to Saudi are USA, UK and France, in that order. Perhaps a terror attack on a arms-for-Saudi factory is coming? I'm sure the intelligence communities have assessed the risks.

    Good until the last two lines. Not going to happen. Syriana rules. Without the happy ending...
  • edited October 2018
    Martin54 wrote: »
    If we're going to ban Wahabism, may we also ban various forms of Christianity? I'm also not fond of Hindu fundamentalists. Those too please.

    I think you mean Salafism. The W. word is pejorative.

    Never heard of Salafism until looked it up. It appears to be like the word "Mormon". The adherents don't like it, but many others may have no clue what is meant if the word isn't used. Wahabism is also indicated to be a particular group within Salafism, more strict and more Saudi. And it appears that the Saudis are Wahabists and Qatar are Salafists, and both are quite extreme, mean, not recommended.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    ...It appears to be like the word "Mormon". The adherents don't like it, but many others may have no clue what is meant if the word isn't used. ...
    [tangent] Actually, most Mormon adherents are fine with the word, which is used, after all, in the name of the religion's prized Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The problem seems to be with the Prophet du Jour, who doesn't like it and has said it shouldn't be used.

    Of course, he also told Mormon women to take time off from social media, but made no such suggestion to Mormon men. There's been some muttering about that... [/tangent]


  • ...so to really change attitudes, we need to pray for a female pope AND a female Mormon prophet. :)
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    If we're going to ban Wahabism, may we also ban various forms of Christianity? I'm also not fond of Hindu fundamentalists. Those too please.

    I think you mean Salafism. The W. word is pejorative.

    Never heard of Salafism until looked it up. It appears to be like the word "Mormon". The adherents don't like it, but many others may have no clue what is meant if the word isn't used. Wahabism is also indicated to be a particular group within Salafism, more strict and more Saudi. And it appears that the Saudis are Wahabists and Qatar are Salafists, and both are quite extreme, mean, not recommended.

    I accept the last two sentences. Jury's out on the 2nd. Salafism is the fastest growing cult of Islam. I encountered it in Kuwait 19 years ago and Leicester this year. It's winning.
  • edited October 2018
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I accept the last two sentences. Jury's out on the 2nd. Salafism is the fastest growing cult of Islam. I encountered it in Kuwait 19 years ago and Leicester this year. It's winning.

    Don't think so. Check out Indonesia and Islam not dominated by Arabia.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    So what do you propose be done Doc Tor, to protest the murder of this man?

    EU travel ban on Saudi government officials.
    Freezing Saudi assets.
    Arms sale ban.
    Proscribing Wahhabist forms of Islam.
    Withdrawal from all bilateral agreements with Saudi Arabia.
    Revocation of visas for visiting Saudis.

    Basically, treat them like the pariah state they are.

    And to be absolutely clear, as vile as Khashoggi's murder is, I would already have put these measures in place decades ago.

    If only we had acted against the Kingdom decades ago. There was always a reason not to I suppose.

    One of the things this murder calls to mind is the scene in Fargo where a body is put through a woodchipper. To me, the woodchipper seemed too small to do the job properly, as my woodchipper arks up at the smallest wooden branch being put through it. Obviously, there are really big ones that could do the job, but the cleaning would be hell. You'd have to ask a butcher for advice I suppose, but the machines are designed differently. When I ask for a lamb's neck to be cut up they use a kind of vertical electric knife with two serrated blades running up and down.

    Kashoggi's murder is a terrible crime, and terrible crimes have been committed before by countries seeking to protect their perceived interests. Journalists are murdered on a regular basis in all sorts of horrific ways. What gets me is the daily abuse of humanity carried out by Saudi Arabia in Yemen, and I appreciate that you see the irony too. I won't broaden it out to Syria. There is no comparison between the brutal murder of a man and the carpet bombing of cities in Yemen.

    I reckon that your set of proposals instituted with immediate effect is likely to do greater harm to us than to Saudi Arabia, given the existence of a viable alternative market in China. I think Saudi Arabia is too tied in to Western economies to be able to be effectively punished at the moment.

    I would like to see a kind of staged process. We (the west) do need to get out of the business of supplying arms to the Saudis. They will get them from China and Russia, but I think that the cost to us is manageable. We absolutely need to end any co-operation with the Saudis over Yemen. I have heard that there is targeting assistance provided to the Saudis under the cover of saying we are trying to help them avoid civilian targets. That must stop. The Saudis are not avoiding civilian targets.

    We need to become less reliant on Saudi oil. In the past, that was about sourcing oil ourselves. Now it is about renewables. That strikes me as a realistic option now.

    Once we are no longer so reliant on petrol, we institute your program, except that we don't freeze Saudi assets, we take them. That will involve dealing with our own tall poppies, as we call them in Australia. We will probably need to bribe the greedy bastards by promising a distribution of Saudi shares on a proportional basis to existing shareholders. That should keep them happy.

    I don't agree that we should ban their version of Islam though. Just get all their adherents to wear ankle bracelets through other means.

    A standard butchers mincer would do the job provided you dismember things first. It'll do a pig carcass which is as similar to a human one of the same size and weight as makes no difference

    Aye, then all you need is a toilet. They'd have brought in the commercial meat grinder under diplomatic cover, organized after his first visit for his next appointment. As was said at the time, 'Who will then rid me of this turbulent priest?'.
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