Spreading the Good News like a complete nimrod...

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  • This is almost an annual media story - though it's usually Vicars who are guilty, and the Santa hammer-smashing does strike one as extreme!

    Silly thing is, you can go into school (as I've done twice this week) and do an Advent assembly without mentioning Santa at all, if you so wish.
  • Anyone fancies applying for a job as a children’s worker with them?

    “We want to appoint a pioneer children’s minister to help develop the range of ministries presently provided by volunteers across our Deanery, as well as pioneer new initiatives that help reach children in our communities. Our aim is to bring the gospel message to the next generation. If you are passionate about local community and seeing children and families come to know Christ, and grow in faith, then we would love to hear from you.”

    No mention of Santa bashing there 🙄🙄

  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    I loved the Santa bashing, not because I would like to do it, but because the kids would have so enjoyed it! I have done my usual advent assembly twice this week as well, which includes talking about Advent meaning coming and then asking "Who is coming?" Of course they say Santa. So then I can say that Santa only comes because Jesus came first... Santa is part of us celebrating Jesus. And, having put Santa in his place - I hope - so we go on to talk about the Christmas story.

    But seriously, it is this kind of person who is likely to have all faith-based personnel kept out of schools. We are only there at the headteacher's invitation (at least in Scotland). A school not far from here had a problem when a misguided Scripture Union worker got the leader of a fly-by-night evangelical church (gone now) permission to go into the primary school. Said guy refused to even look at the guidelines, (which is when the visit should have been pulled by the SU worker) and when the guy had been completely inappropriate no other Minister was allowed in for over a year.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    We are only there at the headteacher's invitation (at least in Scotland).
    That also applies in England in community schools and Church of England schools. I imagine it would cause a bit of a ruckus if a church school head refused to allow the local vicar in, but I'm sure the diocese would say that it was the head's call.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    No Saint Nicholas? So who attended the first Council of Nicaea and was the bishop of Myra back in the day?
  • The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    BroJames wrote: »
    We are only there at the headteacher's invitation (at least in Scotland).
    That also applies in England in community schools and Church of England schools.
    And don't forget Wales (and presumably Northern Ireland)! In all cases we're in school as a privilege not as a right; we also have to acknowledge that there will probably be pupils present who are being brought up in different faiths - not to mention staff members who may be very "iffy" about religion in general! KarlLB has it right.

    I think many of us who minister want to make people think by putting a firecracker under the soppy and romanticised views of the Christmas story - but this wasn't the way to do it in that context. Conversely it might have worked quite well in a church teen youth group, but not a family carol service. (I also knew a High Church Curate who gave a totally inappropriate Easter Assembly in an Infants' School (CofE), by massively over-emphasising Jesus' pain and suffering. The Head Teacher had something to say to the Rector afterwards!)

  • Not exactly new news at all, but what is disturbing IMHO is the wankpuffin's assertion that there is (or was) no St. Nicholas.....I wonder if said wankpuffin also denies the Holocaust (for example), or the Battle of Hastings?

    The whole Santa thing is, of course, as @Cathscats says, an opportunity to mention that queer little chap who seems to awkwardly butt his way into Christ(or X)mas round about this time of winterfest.
    :rage:

    (BTW, I hope @KarlLB is not claiming patent rights or whatever to that wonderful word 'wankpuffin').
    :lol:
  • No, it seemed to enter the lexicon about the same time as Cockwomble.
  • Just to play Devil's Advocate for a sec, but how much right do the parents REALLY have to complain here? I have nothing much against telling kids about Santa, if that's what turns your crank, but if you ARE going to impart fake information to children, you are sort of running the risk that their discovery of the truth is not going to take place according to your prefered timetable.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    And not to be misunderstood, yes, I think smashing stuff with a hammer to show your disapproval is pretty cracked. But that's a separate issue from whether the parents suffered any appreciable harm by having their kids discover the truth.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
    But it wasn't a faith school, surely this is the point. It would have been equally as valid to walk in and say God doesn't exist.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    I think the problem is that it drives a wedge between the "truth" offered to the children by the parents and that offered at school - which has wider implications than just Santa.

    Also it was almost literally a violent act of iconoclasm, at least as far as the kiddiwinks were concerned - or a new Puritanism (where is William Dowsing when you need him?)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    stetson wrote: »
    Just to play Devil's Advocate for a sec, but how much right do the parents REALLY have to complain here? I have nothing much against telling kids about Santa, if that's what turns your crank, but if you ARE going to impart fake information to children, you are sort of running the risk that their discovery of the truth is not going to take place according to your prefered timetable.

    Except it's so much the norm that young children believe in Father Christmas and so much a thing generally understood that you do not go around doing this; figuring it out is a right of passage, pretty much that it marks you out as an utter pillock if you do.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    (Response to Baptist Trainfan)

    Indeed. If one were to make them smash up little statues of Postman Pat, I don't think that would be excusable on the grounds that Postman Pat doesn't exist.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
    But it wasn't a faith school, surely this is the point. It would have been equally as valid to walk in and say God doesn't exist.

    TBH it being a faith school might have explained what this individual was even doing there.
  • I don't really care about this at all. The person seems to be a bit of a dickhead, but she's also technically correct about the guy in the red suit. I'd just like to use it as an excuse to have another go at Oliver bloody Cromwell.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    But Saint Nicholas did exist, there are definite records of his existence.
    Although he now has mythical status, is imbued with magical properties and has acquired the red and white colours from a Coca-Cola advertising campaign to create the Santa Claus we now know.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
    But it wasn't a faith school, surely this is the point. It would have been equally as valid to walk in and say God doesn't exist.

    Schools do that already
  • @Curiosity killed : I believed that the modern red-suited Santa was invented by Coca-Cola until a few weeks ago. But it isn't true, as proved by my copy of "Backtrack", the historical railway magazine. For on the back cover it has an advert by the London & North Western Railway showing Santa sitting in the dining car and being served Christmas pudding. The LNWR ceased to exist in 1922 but I think this picture is probably earlier, just before WW1.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
    But it wasn't a faith school, surely this is the point. It would have been equally as valid to walk in and say God doesn't exist.

    Schools do that already

    Which schools? None I've ever taught in. You'll get some teachers who say, when asked, that they don't believe in God, just as others (like me) would say they do.
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    @Baptist Trainfan apparently it's still not clear - source: BBC - the red and white was one possible colour combination for bishops clothing and Santa Claus appeared in different colours, although red was the most popular worn as a bishop's robe and mitre. The current suit didn't become fixed until the late 19th Century, (see below).
    Between 1863 and 1886, Harper's Weekly magazine ran a series of engravings by Thomas Nast. He developed an image of Santa very close to the modern-day one. From these engravings the concept of Santa's workshop and the idea of writing letters to him also developed.

    Coca-Cola's involvement kicks in in the early 1930s when Swedish artist Haddon Sundblom started drawing ads for Coke featuring a fat Santa in a red coat trimmed with fur and secured with a large belt.
  • It sounds like this charity were on some sort of "fundamentalist" crusade. There's nothing wrong with children believing in Father Christmas - who is actually a mixture of a fictional English character and the legends of the actual St. Nicholas. They can "upgrade" to St. Nicholas when they are older, like learn the significance of the tangerine at the bottom of their Christmas stocking. Ah, silly me, that sounds too much like fun!
  • @Baptist Trainfan apparently it's still not clear - source: BBC - the red and white was one possible colour combination for bishops clothing and Santa Claus appeared in different colours, although red was the most popular worn as a bishop's robe and mitre. The current suit didn't become fixed until the late 19th Century, (see below).
    Between 1863 and 1886, Harper's Weekly magazine ran a series of engravings by Thomas Nast. He developed an image of Santa very close to the modern-day one. From these engravings the concept of Santa's workshop and the idea of writing letters to him also developed.

    Coca-Cola's involvement kicks in in the early 1930s when Swedish artist Haddon Sundblom started drawing ads for Coke featuring a fat Santa in a red coat trimmed with fur and secured with a large belt.

    Icons of St Nicholas always have him in red and white.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Sinterklaas in the Netherlands is wearing a different shade of red than Santa Claus in the US. The latter is Coca Cola red.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The whole thing plays straight into Humanists' suspicions and distrust of faith schools.
    But it wasn't a faith school, surely this is the point. It would have been equally as valid to walk in and say God doesn't exist.

    Schools do that already

    Which schools? None I've ever taught in. You'll get some teachers who say, when asked, that they don't believe in God, just as others (like me) would say they do.
    Your experience matches mine, though as a pupil not a teacher. I think his is a twisting of God not being taught on them.
  • I have no problem with anyone telling children Santa is a story and/or a historical fable.

    I don't understand why it is acceptable to lie to children.

    That said, the situation in the OP probably wasn't the time or place.
  • The thing that always gets me about these stories is that people seem to say "this Santa Claus, who appears to have brought you presents each year, is false, doesn't exist, is a fiction. You have been lied to. Now, let me tell you about God, whom you have no evidence for, but who does exist because we say so"

    Irrespective of what you are trying to teach about, that is not the way to get anyone to accept what you say.

    We didn't particulary encourage Santa when our kids were growing up, but had no real problem with him. I know parents who did, but not in a way that they would tell other children he wasn't real. I think he is a harmless story we can tell, to help introduce children to stories, and why we do things, and what is real.
  • Most children understand the difference between fantasy and reality from an early age. Nothing is gained from telling them that some superhuman figure is giving them presents.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Just to play Devil's Advocate for a sec, but how much right do the parents REALLY have to complain here? I have nothing much against telling kids about Santa, if that's what turns your crank, but if you ARE going to impart fake information to children, you are sort of running the risk that their discovery of the truth is not going to take place according to your prefered timetable.

    Except it's so much the norm that young children believe in Father Christmas and so much a thing generally understood that you do not go around doing this; figuring it out is a right of passage, pretty much that it marks you out as an utter pillock if you do.

    Well, I dunno. If a politician goes on the radio and says "Anyone who believes in this government's economic predictions might as well believe in Santa Claus as well, because they're both myths", is he guilty of ruining the rite-of-passage for children? Because chances are pretty good that some kids who believe in Santa might hear that.

    Or would hearing that be PART of the rite-of-passage, whereas directly stating it to children ruins the rite-of-passage?


  • I believed in Santa as a small child, and I distinctly remember the moment when it flashed to my mind that it wasn't true. I was so overwhelmed with my cleverness, it was amazing. I don't know how I did it, no one told me, but it just suddenly occurred to me. I didn't, and don't, think my parents did anything wrong, or did me any injury by telling me about Santa. I think it was, indeed, a rite of passage.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.
  • Santa bashing conjures up images of blindfolded children whacking away at a Santa shaped pinata.

    Perhaps a new holiday tradition?

    AFF
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.

    Which message is fine and potentially age-appropriate. "Santa doesn't exist" is not, not in our cultural milieu.

    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.
  • In 1823, Clement Clarke Moore (while living at what is now General Theological Seminary in New York City) described St. Nicholas' clothes:
    He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
    And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;
    No mention of what color they were.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.

    Which message is fine and potentially age-appropriate. "Santa doesn't exist" is not, not in our cultural milieu.

    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.

    What are you talking about? Santa doesn't exist. It's a story.
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.

    Which message is fine and potentially age-appropriate. "Santa doesn't exist" is not, not in our cultural milieu.

    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.

    What are you talking about? Santa doesn't exist. It's a story.

    Maybe this thread should contain a spoiler-warning in the title, in case anyone leaves it up on their computer when the kids are around?

  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    I'm from the Netherlands so Santa Claus means nothing to me, but I do believe that Sinterklaas exists. He exists as a historical person, he exists as a story, he exists as an idea. The fact that it's a person who puts on his clothes doesn't change this. I don't understand this "he doesn't exist" talk.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    I grew up knowing that "Santa" was a symbol of Christmas. My folks would sign our presents "from Mr. and Mrs. Santa" and give each other presents signed as such. No trauma. And I didn't go around to my playmates telling them that there was no Santa Claus. It was what it was.
  • LeRoc wrote: »
    I'm from the Netherlands so Santa Claus means nothing to me, but I do believe that Sinterklaas exists. He exists as a historical person, he exists as a story, he exists as an idea. The fact that it's a person who puts on his clothes doesn't change this. I don't understand this "he doesn't exist" talk.

    I don't think other European cultures really have the cult of Santa as much as the English-speaking world. Kids believe he is a real figure who comes to give them presents.

    As I said before, most kids understand the difference between reality and fantasy, but in this case adults tell children that Santa actually exists as a real being in the here and now.
  • Has anyone on here (who has children), never told the story of Santa?
  • Was it the Marx Brothers film 'Duck Soup' which contained the court-room scene with the following exchange:

    'What about the sanity clause?'
    'There ain't no such thing as Sanity Clause!'
  • mr cheesy wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.

    Which message is fine and potentially age-appropriate. "Santa doesn't exist" is not, not in our cultural milieu.

    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.

    What are you talking about? Santa doesn't exist. It's a story.

    Yeah, I know, but 4 year olds generally don't and it's hardly culturally appropriate to go around telling them so. It just isn't done.
  • Has anyone on here (who has children), never told the story of Santa?
    My eldest was told he was not real and was based on St Nicholas but that he should not to spoil other children's fun by saying so to them. We tried the same with my youngest, who refused to believe us! Whilst other parents did their best to prevent their children from finding out the truth we utterly failed to convince him it was a lie. He stopped believing at the usual time, around 8.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've got sympathy with Emily Taylor on this. Every year, sometime around the beginning of December, some unfortunate draws the short straw to be pilloried in the press for letting the cat out of this particular bag. It's as regular as reports of hearing the first cuckoo each spring. True, smashing chocolate Santas with hammers is a bit over the top. But presumably the newspapers which express such outrage are totally blasé about their output going into homes where primary age children, many of whom in these enlightened time can read, might come across their reports.

    And even in a secular school, if it's supposed to be doing any RE at all, and one of the religions they are covering is Christianity, it's quite an important message that Father Christmas, reindeer, holly, decorated trees, etc have no more to do with Christianity or Christmas than a rabbit has with Easter.

    Which message is fine and potentially age-appropriate. "Santa doesn't exist" is not, not in our cultural milieu.

    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.

    What are you talking about? Santa doesn't exist. It's a story.

    Yeah, I know, but 4 year olds generally don't and it's hardly culturally appropriate to go around telling them so. It just isn't done.

    Why isn't it? I've had small children, I saw no need to actively tell them lies.

    What's wrong with saying to them "this is a nice story about Christmas.."?
  • Has anyone on here (who has children), never told the story of Santa?
    My eldest was told he was not real and was based on St Nicholas but that he should not to spoil other children's fun by saying so to them. We tried the same with my youngest, who refused to believe us! Whilst other parents did their best to prevent their children from finding out the truth we utterly failed to convince him it was a lie. He stopped believing at the usual time, around 8.

    I think this is much more of a problem. One of my kids started asking me questions when they were very young (I think because we made a point of not talking about Santa when everyone else was) so we said it was a story that lots of people liked. And then it was tough to persuade them to not try to persuade other children that it wasn't real.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    But that you understood that persuading him not to disillusion other children mattered - something the subject of this thread didn't grasp, and didn't grasp in spectacular fashion. Approve or not, the whole Santa business and children gradually figuring it out is an important part of some families' Christmas and its not your or anyone else's job to go in with size 10s and screw it up for them.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.
    I think the problem is often that they do not actually remember what it was like to be a child. Children like me. I joke that it is because I am their size, but I think it is primarily because I relate to them from their POV.
    IMO, anyone who doesn't get why the Jolly Old Elf is a thing for kids or why slapping them in the face with the "truth" is wrong just doesn't comprehend children.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    In 1823, Clement Clarke Moore (while living at what is now General Theological Seminary in New York City) described St. Nicholas' clothes:
    He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
    And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;
    No mention of what color they were.

    I checked on this, then checked the book I read to the kids each year.

    You are right, the original is dressed all in fur, but the book I read had dressed all in RED.
    Children's publishers, why did you lie to me? [/sarcasm]
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I wonder if the people saying they can't see the problem with this have ever even seen a child.
    I think the problem is often that they do not actually remember what it was like to be a child. Children like me. I joke that it is because I am their size, but I think it is primarily because I relate to them from their POV.
    IMO, anyone who doesn't get why the Jolly Old Elf is a thing for kids or why slapping them in the face with the "truth" is wrong just doesn't comprehend children.

    Yes, you're right - I've often said that everyone can remember being a child, but many seem to forget how being a child felt

    I miss how Christmas felt as a child still now.
This discussion has been closed.