...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
Nope. I mean apostrophe. Or possessive apostrophe. A , isn,t an '.
Mark. You don't need to respond. It is quite possible, if someone corrects your grammar, to ignore them and return to topic. Or even to acknowledge, 'Oh, yes, I wrote that wrong,' and return to topic. You are under no obligation to start looking for errors they may have made. Discussions are not some weird retaliation game...
The thing is that these "corrections" weren't done in a nice way and also derailed the thread and prevented any further discussion on the real points I was trying to make. I agree with you though, that I should have ignored them.
Mark. You don't need to respond. It is quite possible, if someone corrects your grammar, to ignore them and return to topic. Or even to acknowledge, 'Oh, yes, I wrote that wrong,' and return to topic. You are under no obligation to start looking for errors they may have made. Discussions are not some weird retaliation game...
The thing is that these "corrections" weren't done in a nice way and also derailed the thread and prevented any further discussion on the real points I was trying to make. I agree with you though, that I should have ignored them.
Or, if this is genuinely what happens (it's not quite what I saw, from reading the thread, but clearly you experienced it that way), you could try asking if there is a reason why they are focusing on your grammar rather than on the content of what you said. If people aren't being nice to you, it is unlikely to be a random desire to be mean to a random innocent person on a whim - it is more likely you said something that annoyed them.
Maybe repeat the content of what you said/intended, in different wording, and explain why you are saying it. I don't recall you giving much content though. Maybe try rereading the thread in detail. Maybe, if you want to get a bit of insight outside of your own perspective, imagine that Mark Betts isn't you, that you have no 'side' to take in the debate, and that you are a Host who has to read the whole thread, and intervene if someone is continually off-topic or insulting people.
The focus on the grammar was because he was a dick to kmann, who (whoever they are) has a perfectly functional grasp of English, while possibly not being English.
And as a matter of Ship policy, while all discussions need to be carried out in English, people who have English as a second language should feel able to contribute to threads without dicks telling them they aren't English enough to use the boards. That, frankly, is bang out of order.
Yes. I posted at the time explaining why his post to kmann was rude, but he seemed to completely miss the point I was making, and focused on one part of my post, where I was acknowledging one part of his perspective, for the sake of fairness, and he turned it into a 'Haha - told you so!' thing. He doesn't seem interested in rational discussion, or acknowledging people's attempts to communicate with him. Or maybe he doesn't know how.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church thread was difficult to engage in because Mark Betts's only response to other points of view was to insist that the links he was posting were right, and the only correct answer. From everything I read around the situation in Ukraine is anything but clear cut and decided in any direction, but a confused mess of history colliding with present day politics.
So, Mark, do you have anything to say that the Russophobic innocent church tourist harassing Biased Broadcasting Corporation hasn't said already? Especially when it cowardly exposed draconian Ukrainian oppression of Russian Orthodox in the Ukraine? And supinely confronted a car load of state sponsored thugs and their minister?
The thing is that these "corrections" weren't done in a nice way
Your projection of tone is not necessarily definitive. Might I suggest either imagining posts being read by Sir David Attenborough in his finest matter-of-fact helpful manner, or not being such a fucking child.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
His English is superior to yours. His intellect is superior to yours. His ability to hold an argument is superior to yours.
With due respect to Kmann, this is not a very high bar to clear.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
...and helped precipitate the Ukrainian Orthodox' (I'm pushing the boat out with that apostrophe I realise)...
Don't you mean "that possessive comma?" Seriously, I'm no master of the English language, I only respond when someone starts having a go at my grammar. I never said anything about your writing style, but you had to stick your oar in.
No, you then proceed to lie. You made the claim that I had commented on your grammar, which was just a boldfaced lie.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
Did I write it in ink only visible to you?
Exactly the sort of response I expected from you. Conversation over,
It's a metaphorical response, Mark, and a sensible one.
If you are stating that kmann was implying something that he didn't say outright, and you're the only one who interpreted it that way, it does suggest a bit of a misreading on your part. Metaphorically, that there is some invisible ink only visible to you.
Mark, seriously, stop reacting and look at yourself for a sec. You keep telling people they are 'fawning' if they agree with someone or are friendly to someone. Do you really live in a world where people never genuinely agree, never are genuinely friendly? That is sad. Sad for you. People are a mix of things, but it's quite possible to agree with people and express that, and to be friendly and courteous, as a genuine human thing. It is also possible to disagree with people in a courteous way.
You know when you are a little kid, and it snows and you all rush outside and throw snowballs at each other, and it's fun? And you feel all victorious if you dodge someone's snowball while getting him right on the face with yours? The thing is, discussion forums aren't like that. Adult conversation is generally not like that.
In Purgatory, the idea is to discuss the issue, because it's interesting, and you can learn from each other, and share knowledge and opinions, etc. It's not a fight, where you have to win no matter what, where if someone states something sensible that gives their opinion some weight, you must immediately deflect and find something else to disagree with, so that you win and they lose. That's not how it works. It's not a snowball fight. If someone you have been disagreeing with says something you hadn't thought of, which makes sense, it's quite sensible and respectable and okay to say 'Ah, good point - that's true.' That doesn't make you a loser or them a winner. It's about exploring the issue. You may well say 'Fair enough, I agree on that point, but there is another point I don't think is sensible or right.'
But your approach is more like you're a five year old having a snowball fight, like the issue isn't interesting or relevant to you, but you just want to splatter everyone with snow and win the fight. And it annoys people. That is what they keep trying to tell you, in all sorts of different ways. No one is saying 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rule, Mark Betts drools!' They are saying 'Look, the way you are debating is evading the issue, it's annoying, it's childish, so please can you try debating the issue instead, because actually Ukrainian Orthodoxy has the potential to be an interesting topic.'
And you just keep replying with your versions of 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rool, you all drool.'
And this is why there is a hell thread with your name on, and people aren't being friendly to you. I am trying to explain this in a very clear way, because it really seems like you haven't realised it.
It's a metaphorical response, Mark, and a sensible one.
If you are stating that kmann was implying something that he didn't say outright, and you're the only one who interpreted it that way, it does suggest a bit of a misreading on your part. Metaphorically, that there is some invisible ink only visible to you.
I don't judge on that response alone - I judge on all his responses to my posts, which are in a similar vein - that's why I refuse to discuss the matter with him anymore.
Mark, seriously, stop reacting and look at yourself for a sec. You keep telling people they are 'fawning' if they agree with someone or are friendly to someone. Do you really live in a world where people never genuinely agree, never are genuinely friendly? That is sad. Sad for you. People are a mix of things, but it's quite possible to agree with people and express that, and to be friendly and courteous, as a genuine human thing. It is also possible to disagree with people in a courteous way.
You know when you are a little kid, and it snows and you all rush outside and throw snowballs at each other, and it's fun? And you feel all victorious if you dodge someone's snowball while getting him right on the face with yours? The thing is, discussion forums aren't like that. Adult conversation is generally not like that.
In Purgatory, the idea is to discuss the issue, because it's interesting, and you can learn from each other, and share knowledge and opinions, etc. It's not a fight, where you have to win no matter what, where if someone states something sensible that gives their opinion some weight, you must immediately deflect and find something else to disagree with, so that you win and they lose. That's not how it works. It's not a snowball fight. If someone you have been disagreeing with says something you hadn't thought of, which makes sense, it's quite sensible and respectable and okay to say 'Ah, good point - that's true.' That doesn't make you a loser or them a winner. It's about exploring the issue. You may well say 'Fair enough, I agree on that point, but there is another point I don't think is sensible or right.'
But your approach is more like you're a five year old having a snowball fight, like the issue isn't interesting or relevant to you, but you just want to splatter everyone with snow and win the fight. And it annoys people. That is what they keep trying to tell you, in all sorts of different ways. No one is saying 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rule, Mark Betts drools!' They are saying 'Look, the way you are debating is evading the issue, it's annoying, it's childish, so please can you try debating the issue instead, because actually Ukrainian Orthodoxy has the potential to be an interesting topic.'
And you just keep replying with your versions of 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rool, you all drool.'
And this is why there is a hell thread with your name on, and people aren't being friendly to you. I am trying to explain this in a very clear way, because it really seems like you haven't realised it.
I don't intend to react this way anymore in Purgatory, nor will I be replying much more to the Hell threads, unless someone has a constructive point to make.
Most of what I'm seeing is people acting like 5-year-olds, accusing someone else of acting like a 5-year-old. As I said before, much of what is in "Hell" is simply rubbish and not worth spending too much time on. You talk as if I am the only one being childish, but that simply is not true. If someone has a real point to make, that's different.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
Can you provide just one example of where it was implied in his posts before you starting criticizing his grammar?
I don't intend to react this way anymore in Purgatory, nor will I be replying much more to the Hell threads, unless someone has a constructive point to make.
Most of what I'm seeing is people acting like 5-year-olds, accusing someone else of acting like a 5-year-old. As I said before, much of what is in "Hell" is simply rubbish and not worth spending too much time on. You talk as if I am the only one being childish, but that simply is not true. If someone has a real point to make, that's different.
I have noticed you have several times expressed awareness of your tendency to be reactive and a desire to stop. I have admiration for that (genuinely - not fawning or anything! I have nothing to gain by being friendly to you). I wish you well in that, genuinely.
And yes, I know you see it that everyone else is being childish, and you read their posts as 'ner ner ner ner ner' and respond in kind. My post was trying to show you a different perspective, which I think is more accurate.
I would also suggest, with no ill-will intended, that what you are seeing may be more of a projection, or difficulty reading between the lines sometimes. People often are making genuine, sensible points, even here in Hell when they are doing so in an a rude or childish-sounding way. It seems to me you often miss the points, which is understandable if you are feeling attacked by the language being used. But people often talk in sweary hyperbole here in Hell, a kind of mix of making serious points, and being silly or aggressive. Often the points are cryptic or indirect. Which was why I posted as I did, without crypticness, I hope.
There are different ways of being silly/childish - people here often do it in a self-aware, kind of ironic way, where they are making a serious point, to communicate something, and even sometimes to try to help the person, even while being rude too. Like a game, but a game with a purpose. In fact, a lot of people prefer this to someone spelling things out, because spelling things out, like I do, can be read as patronising. I don't intend it as patronising. I do it when I think the more cryptic methods others use aren't working and are making the person feel attacked.
Pretty much everyone married to someone with a doctorate will say "my spouse has a doctorate but is rarely called anything other than their first name", not because the person concerned isn't arrogant and superior (because some of them are) but because arrogance and feelings of superiority aren't conferred at a higher degree awarding ceremony.
I mean, that's clearly the case, isn't it, Mark?
(also, I chose the Ship name Doc Tor because of my love of Doctor Who and the Daleks, not because I have a PhD.)
OK - this time I'll admit I was wrong.
Not that I don't have a PhD. I do. Just that I didn't chose my shipname because of it.
I suspected you most likely did, but I'll stand by my apology - it's time we put it to bed.
Ok Mark, allow me to illustrate some things about this community that you obviously don't appreciate.
First there are enforced behaviours. You do what you are told by the Hosts and Admins.
But there are other community behaviours - that you clearly don't understand - which we generally accept as normal behaviour and put under the category of "don't be a dick and stop digging holes you can't get out of".
Let me explain to you how you have fallen into this unwritten code violation of this community.
First you take an unusual position. Generally speaking that's good - because this community values the underdog and can discuss to death something that is Different and Interesting.
So far so good.
But then you commit your first fatal faux pa: you attack others for something that could easily be applied to you.
Now in your case that was saying something about being Orthodox in Ukraine (and, actually, in general).
This community is generally polite, so nobody pointed out the obvious hole in your argument - namely that if Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine should obviously come under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church then maybe if Mark Betts is in England he should put himself under the jurisdiction of the Church of England (or the Roman Catholic Church, or the Methodists or some other Orthodox jurisdiction).
My guess is that nobody made this obvious point because it is so obvious as to be unhelpful. You are likely to be Russian Orthodox for a complexity of reasons that are more than geography.
And yet you repeatedly make this over-simplified point about other people here. One posters views can be dismissed because they are Not English, someone else because they are in the wrong Orthodox jurisdiction, someone else because they use Doc in their screen-name.
These are all examples of dickish behaviour that nobody else has stopped so low as to use against you.
Your second faux pa is to bring in partly-digested information about other posters - based generally on things they've posted or that you've scraped off the internet. So, according to you, you know something about mousethief and josephine.
First, this is dumb because many of us have been around here for a very long time so we can see through the lies you've spoken about our friends. But more than that, more than that, we are way, way too polite to do that to you.
I'm betting that there are many shipmates here who could find out things about you, Mark Betts. We could find things you've written elsewhere. We have contacts who could tell us things about you that we could garble and use on this website.
But we don't, do we. Because there is a difference between you and everyone else here.
You are a dick. You don't care about community norms. You trample over the unwritten rules that everyone else has been graceful enough to apply to you.
I don't know that this article is really Hellish enough to post, but the Purg thread is dead, and I found the piece balanced and interesting, whatever one thinks of the current kerfuffle between sects of the Orthodoxen.
I don't know that this article is really Hellish enough to post, but the Purg thread is dead, and I found the piece balanced and interesting, whatever one thinks of the current kerfuffle between sects of the Orthodoxen.
So sad what happens when politics and religion get intertwined. It could be generations to sort this all out, for egos to cool and churches to throw off the government yoke.
I am not discounting the possibility at all. Moth values the power of the Russian Orthodox Church, and is, I suspect, fully capable of using tanks to impose it on the long-suffering Ukrainians.
I am not discounting the possibility at all. Moth values the power of the Russian Orthodox Church, and is, I suspect, fully capable of using tanks to impose it on the long-suffering Ukrainians.
Comments
Continued here.
The thing is that these "corrections" weren't done in a nice way and also derailed the thread and prevented any further discussion on the real points I was trying to make. I agree with you though, that I should have ignored them.
Or, if this is genuinely what happens (it's not quite what I saw, from reading the thread, but clearly you experienced it that way), you could try asking if there is a reason why they are focusing on your grammar rather than on the content of what you said. If people aren't being nice to you, it is unlikely to be a random desire to be mean to a random innocent person on a whim - it is more likely you said something that annoyed them.
Maybe repeat the content of what you said/intended, in different wording, and explain why you are saying it. I don't recall you giving much content though. Maybe try rereading the thread in detail. Maybe, if you want to get a bit of insight outside of your own perspective, imagine that Mark Betts isn't you, that you have no 'side' to take in the debate, and that you are a Host who has to read the whole thread, and intervene if someone is continually off-topic or insulting people.
And as a matter of Ship policy, while all discussions need to be carried out in English, people who have English as a second language should feel able to contribute to threads without dicks telling them they aren't English enough to use the boards. That, frankly, is bang out of order.
Your projection of tone is not necessarily definitive. Might I suggest either imagining posts being read by Sir David Attenborough in his finest matter-of-fact helpful manner, or not being such a fucking child.
If you want to get technical about it you may be right, but you certainly implied it in many of your posts - that your English was somehow superior - and that's what all this is about.
His English is superior to yours. His intellect is superior to yours. His ability to hold an argument is superior to yours.
With due respect to Kmann, this is not a very high bar to clear.
This is all about the Mark of the Betts!
Reply to this is here.
You really enjoy contaminating as many threads as possible, apparently.
Exactly the sort of response I expected from you. Conversation over,
If you are stating that kmann was implying something that he didn't say outright, and you're the only one who interpreted it that way, it does suggest a bit of a misreading on your part. Metaphorically, that there is some invisible ink only visible to you.
You know when you are a little kid, and it snows and you all rush outside and throw snowballs at each other, and it's fun? And you feel all victorious if you dodge someone's snowball while getting him right on the face with yours? The thing is, discussion forums aren't like that. Adult conversation is generally not like that.
In Purgatory, the idea is to discuss the issue, because it's interesting, and you can learn from each other, and share knowledge and opinions, etc. It's not a fight, where you have to win no matter what, where if someone states something sensible that gives their opinion some weight, you must immediately deflect and find something else to disagree with, so that you win and they lose. That's not how it works. It's not a snowball fight. If someone you have been disagreeing with says something you hadn't thought of, which makes sense, it's quite sensible and respectable and okay to say 'Ah, good point - that's true.' That doesn't make you a loser or them a winner. It's about exploring the issue. You may well say 'Fair enough, I agree on that point, but there is another point I don't think is sensible or right.'
But your approach is more like you're a five year old having a snowball fight, like the issue isn't interesting or relevant to you, but you just want to splatter everyone with snow and win the fight. And it annoys people. That is what they keep trying to tell you, in all sorts of different ways. No one is saying 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rule, Mark Betts drools!' They are saying 'Look, the way you are debating is evading the issue, it's annoying, it's childish, so please can you try debating the issue instead, because actually Ukrainian Orthodoxy has the potential to be an interesting topic.'
And you just keep replying with your versions of 'Ner ner ner ner ner - I rool, you all drool.'
And this is why there is a hell thread with your name on, and people aren't being friendly to you. I am trying to explain this in a very clear way, because it really seems like you haven't realised it.
I don't judge on that response alone - I judge on all his responses to my posts, which are in a similar vein - that's why I refuse to discuss the matter with him anymore.
I don't intend to react this way anymore in Purgatory, nor will I be replying much more to the Hell threads, unless someone has a constructive point to make.
Most of what I'm seeing is people acting like 5-year-olds, accusing someone else of acting like a 5-year-old. As I said before, much of what is in "Hell" is simply rubbish and not worth spending too much time on. You talk as if I am the only one being childish, but that simply is not true. If someone has a real point to make, that's different.
I have noticed you have several times expressed awareness of your tendency to be reactive and a desire to stop. I have admiration for that (genuinely - not fawning or anything! I have nothing to gain by being friendly to you). I wish you well in that, genuinely.
And yes, I know you see it that everyone else is being childish, and you read their posts as 'ner ner ner ner ner' and respond in kind. My post was trying to show you a different perspective, which I think is more accurate.
I would also suggest, with no ill-will intended, that what you are seeing may be more of a projection, or difficulty reading between the lines sometimes. People often are making genuine, sensible points, even here in Hell when they are doing so in an a rude or childish-sounding way. It seems to me you often miss the points, which is understandable if you are feeling attacked by the language being used. But people often talk in sweary hyperbole here in Hell, a kind of mix of making serious points, and being silly or aggressive. Often the points are cryptic or indirect. Which was why I posted as I did, without crypticness, I hope.
There are different ways of being silly/childish - people here often do it in a self-aware, kind of ironic way, where they are making a serious point, to communicate something, and even sometimes to try to help the person, even while being rude too. Like a game, but a game with a purpose. In fact, a lot of people prefer this to someone spelling things out, because spelling things out, like I do, can be read as patronising. I don't intend it as patronising. I do it when I think the more cryptic methods others use aren't working and are making the person feel attacked.
Ok Mark, allow me to illustrate some things about this community that you obviously don't appreciate.
First there are enforced behaviours. You do what you are told by the Hosts and Admins.
But there are other community behaviours - that you clearly don't understand - which we generally accept as normal behaviour and put under the category of "don't be a dick and stop digging holes you can't get out of".
Let me explain to you how you have fallen into this unwritten code violation of this community.
First you take an unusual position. Generally speaking that's good - because this community values the underdog and can discuss to death something that is Different and Interesting.
So far so good.
But then you commit your first fatal faux pa: you attack others for something that could easily be applied to you.
Now in your case that was saying something about being Orthodox in Ukraine (and, actually, in general).
This community is generally polite, so nobody pointed out the obvious hole in your argument - namely that if Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine should obviously come under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church then maybe if Mark Betts is in England he should put himself under the jurisdiction of the Church of England (or the Roman Catholic Church, or the Methodists or some other Orthodox jurisdiction).
My guess is that nobody made this obvious point because it is so obvious as to be unhelpful. You are likely to be Russian Orthodox for a complexity of reasons that are more than geography.
And yet you repeatedly make this over-simplified point about other people here. One posters views can be dismissed because they are Not English, someone else because they are in the wrong Orthodox jurisdiction, someone else because they use Doc in their screen-name.
These are all examples of dickish behaviour that nobody else has stopped so low as to use against you.
Your second faux pa is to bring in partly-digested information about other posters - based generally on things they've posted or that you've scraped off the internet. So, according to you, you know something about mousethief and josephine.
First, this is dumb because many of us have been around here for a very long time so we can see through the lies you've spoken about our friends. But more than that, more than that, we are way, way too polite to do that to you.
I'm betting that there are many shipmates here who could find out things about you, Mark Betts. We could find things you've written elsewhere. We have contacts who could tell us things about you that we could garble and use on this website.
But we don't, do we. Because there is a difference between you and everyone else here.
You are a dick. You don't care about community norms. You trample over the unwritten rules that everyone else has been graceful enough to apply to you.
/ˌfō ˈpä/
noun
An embarrassing or tactless act or remark in a social situation.
Origin: French - literally "false step".
pos·er
/ˈpōzər/
noun
A person who acts in an affected manner in order to impress others.
ROTFL. (:unworthy:)
Why are you so relentlessly pleasant? To me? When I have been... Purgatorial? Happy New Year GK and MB and all.
Not so much a fruit as a root vegetable? With the emphasis in this case on "vegetable"?
So sad what happens when politics and religion get intertwined. It could be generations to sort this all out, for egos to cool and churches to throw off the government yoke.
I'd go with turnip, being as they say around here a "nippy wee sweety".
https://newsweek.com/nine-things-you-may-not-know-about-vladimir-putin-473207
If he needed to he would. He doesn't.